Where Atheists get their Morals

logitextlogitext PEx Veteran ⭐⭐

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  • KidlatNgayonKidlatNgayon Member PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    Ecclesiastes 7:29
    International Standard Version
    I have discovered only this: God made human beings for righteousness, but they seek many alternatives."

    Ephesians 4:22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23t o be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

    where did you get your morals?

    2 timothy 3:15
    English Standard Version
    and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
  • TrollmeisterTrollmeister B?nned for trolling PEX PEx Veteran ⭐⭐
    Where Atheists get their Morals?     From the toilet....    :rofl:  
  • logitextlogitext PEx Veteran ⭐⭐

    where did you get your morals?


    1. You, me, all humans are social animals. As such we are born with natural abilities for social interaction, such as empathy.

    2. Moralities are principles of proper behavior.

    So we develop principles of behavior from how we interact with each other. We know its not moral when it makes other people upset and we dont want that because we will be treated as outcasts.

    Like when INC slashed the tires of reporters, was it moral or immoral? How do you know?

  • ElCidElCid Roman Catholic PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    logitext said:

    where did you get your morals?


    1. You, me, all humans are social animals. As such we are born with natural abilities for social interaction, such as empathy.

    2. Moralities are principles of proper behavior.

    So we develop principles of behavior from how we interact with each other. We know its not moral when it makes other people upset and we dont want that because we will be treated as outcasts.

    Like when INC slashed the tires of reporters, was it moral or immoral? How do you know?

    I was asking you almost the same question - as an atheist, how do you know that slavery is immoral?  You gave me nothing after several pages.
  • logitextlogitext PEx Veteran ⭐⭐
    edited February 19
    ElCid said:
    logitext said:

    where did you get your morals?


    1. You, me, all humans are social animals. As such we are born with natural abilities for social interaction, such as empathy.

    2. Moralities are principles of proper behavior.

    So we develop principles of behavior from how we interact with each other. We know its not moral when it makes other people upset and we dont want that because we will be treated as outcasts.

    Like when INC slashed the tires of reporters, was it moral or immoral? How do you know?

    I was asking you almost the same question - as an atheist, how do you know that slavery is immoral?  You gave me nothing after several pages.
    For me slavery is immoral because it feels wrong. Its this feeling of wrongness that encourages me to rationalize why it is wrong.

    If you ask me why it feels wrong, its because I can empathize with the feelings of being a slave. Especially those who are oppressed by their masters.


    May I ask you the same question, why is slavery wrong when your bible allows, if not encourages, slavery?
    Why is it wrong for you when so many christians supported slavery...
    https://www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-33/why-christians-supported-slavery.html
  • KidlatNgayonKidlatNgayon Member PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    logitext said:

    where did you get your morals?


    1. You, me, all humans are social animals. As such we are born with natural abilities for social interaction, such as empathy.

    2. Moralities are principles of proper behavior.

    So we develop principles of behavior from how we interact with each other. We know its not moral when it makes other people upset and we dont want that because we will be treated as outcasts.

    Like when INC slashed the tires of reporters, was it moral or immoral? How do you know?

    1. We, God-believers, are NOT taught that men are classified as animals. I'm pretty sure that this is what's taught to us in INC, I don't know about those outside INC. Man is God's centerpiece of creation. Man is master to all animals and therefore not an animal even though he's also flesh.

    And how are we "born" with natural abilities for social interaction IF WE GO BY YOUR SCIENTIFIC BELIEFS that humankind evolved from a SINGLE CELL that has no brain, no complexities that manifest these "emotions" or MORALS as you say? You say that we "we develop principles of behavior from how we interact with each other", but how did this come to be? Did the single-celled organisms started behaviorally interacting with each other, and this interaction became complex as the organisms became complex?

    The textproof is in the bible that man was indeed created and from the first couple, humankind was born! 

    1 Corinthians 15:39
    All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fish, another of birds.

    That even the animals were made ACCORDING TO THEIR KIND (so no evolution)

    Genesis 1:20 God said, "Let the waters swarm with living things, and let birds fly above the earth up in the dome of the sky." 
    21 God created the great sea animals and all the tiny living things that swarm in the waters, each according to its kind, and all the winged birds, each according to its kind. God saw how good it was. 
    22 Then God blessed them: "Be fertile and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let the birds multiply on the earth." 
    23 There was evening and there was morning: the fifth day. 
    24 God said, "Let the earth produce every kind of living thing: livestock, crawling things, and wildlife." And that's what happened. 
    25God made every kind of wildlife, every kind of livestock, and every kind of creature that crawls on the ground. God saw how good it was. 

    Man is Lord of Beasts and all other living things so not classified with them:

    Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make humanity in our image to resemble us so that they may take charge of the fish of the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the earth, and all the crawling things on earth." 
    27 God created humanity in God's own image, in the divine image God created them, male and female God created them. 
    28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and master it. Take charge of the fish of the sea, the birds in the sky, and everything crawling on the ground." 
    29 Then God said, "I now give to you all the plants on the earth that yield seeds and all the trees whose fruit produces its seeds within it. These will be your food.
    30 To all wildlife, to all the birds in the sky, and to everything crawling on the ground—to everything that breathes—I give all the green grasses for food." And that's what happened. 

    Man is an ethical being:

    He can distinguish between right and wrong. He can and does make moral judgments. He has a conscience. Only to man could God speak of "good" and "evil." Because of mans sense of justice and his ethical orientation, God could fairly punish him for his willful disobedience in the Garden of Eden. 

    Regarding the "slashing" of tires, it would seem that INC members have done that despicable act, but you know what? California is the place where the enemies of INC nest - there are some "strong opposition" groups there that would want to make INC look bad in the world. What I'm saying, if you haven't guessed yet, is FRAME-UP! But technically, as of now, this is an ACCUSATION with no proof, unfortunately. Otherwise, we would have heard news that an INC member was jailed or taken to court! :D 
  • logitextlogitext PEx Veteran ⭐⭐
    Regarding the "slashing" of tires, it would seem that INC members have done that despicable act, but you know what? California is the place where the enemies of INC nest - there are some "strong opposition" groups there that would want to make INC look bad in the world. What I'm saying, if you haven't guessed yet, is FRAME-UP! But technically, as of now, this is an ACCUSATION with no proof, unfortunately. Otherwise, we would have heard news that an INC member was jailed or taken to court! :D 

    Why do you say the slashing of tires is despicable? What gave you the idea that it is wrong?
  • KidlatNgayonKidlatNgayon Member PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    It is wrong because it's an illegal act! It's destruction of other people's property. It's like stealing them as they become useless. A true INC member has conscience to not do that. We are basically indoctrinated to NOT SIN. We took an oath of not disobeying God's commandments. We took an oath of not disobeying the land's (government) commandment. We also believe that we will answer for that sin, if not today, come judgment day!
  • logitextlogitext PEx Veteran ⭐⭐
    edited February 19
    It is wrong because it's an illegal act! It's destruction of other people's property. It's like stealing them as they become useless. A true INC member has conscience to not do that. We are basically indoctrinated to NOT SIN. We took an oath of not disobeying God's commandments. We took an oath of not disobeying the land's (government) commandment. We also believe that we will answer for that sin, if not today, come judgment day!

    Its wrong because its illegal, not because the bible said so. The government made it illegal because it is unfair to the victim. We know its unfair because we can feel it, and after feeling it we can rationalize it. That is also how we atheists get our morality.

    And this is how scientists define "animal":

    Any of the eukaryotic multicellular organisms of the biological kingdom Animalia that are generally characterized to be heterotrophic, motile, having specialized sensory organs, lacking cell wall, and growing from a blastula during embryonic development
    https://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Animal#Definition
  • AgapitoAgapito Member PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    Morality is simply the determination of what is acceptable behavior, or unacceptable behavior.

    And this determination of what is acceptable or not, can be based on (1) personal judgment; or (2) community judgment.

    Religion-based morality, is simply an attempt to streamline or unify the community judgment, so as to avoid expected conflicts from different people having different personal judgment on various matters.

    Oftentimes, what comes out as the "consensus" community judgment, is turned into law by the government which everyone in the community jurisdiction must obey.



  • TrollmeisterTrollmeister B?nned for trolling PEX PEx Veteran ⭐⭐
    logitext said:

    Its wrong because its illegal, not because the bible said so. The government made it illegal because it is unfair to the victim. We know its unfair because we can feel it, and after feeling it we can rationalize it. That is also how we atheists get our morality.


    Kaya pala ang hilig hilig ng mga Atheists na Manyakis sa Anal Sex    :rofl:   
  • TrollmeisterTrollmeister B?nned for trolling PEX PEx Veteran ⭐⭐
    logitext said:

    If you ask me why it feels wrong, its because I can empathize with the feelings of being a slave. Especially those who are oppressed by their masters.


    Can you also empathize with the feelings of a homosexual, especially those who are oppressed in their *****?    :rofl:    
  • KidlatNgayonKidlatNgayon Member PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    logitext said:
    It is wrong because it's an illegal act! It's destruction of other people's property. It's like stealing them as they become useless. A true INC member has conscience to not do that. We are basically indoctrinated to NOT SIN. We took an oath of not disobeying God's commandments. We took an oath of not disobeying the land's (government) commandment. We also believe that we will answer for that sin, if not today, come judgment day!

    Its wrong because its illegal, not because the bible said so. The government made it illegal because it is unfair to the victim. We know its unfair because we can feel it, and after feeling it we can rationalize it. That is also how we atheists get our morality.

    And this is how scientists define "animal":

    Any of the eukaryotic multicellular organisms of the biological kingdom Animalia that are generally characterized to be heterotrophic, motile, having specialized sensory organs, lacking cell wall, and growing from a blastula during embryonic development
    https://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Animal#Definition
    As I already said, the act is equivalent to STEALING which is a commandment of God not to be committed, that even you knew since you were a young child! :D

    So I guess what you are trying to say also is that you, Atheists, does a lot of "trial and error" to rationalize your "morality". I do know that some criminals do not feel remorse after killing. First off, a minority of all criminals are killers. Within the range of killers, they can be anything from psychotics who enjoyed the killing, or psychotics who killed and don’t feel one way or another, to people who can not cope with it and ultimately kill themselves or shut down mentally because of their crimes. So what do you make of this group?

    And scientists "defining" animals does not make what's written in the bible wrong! Remember that scientists only try to FIND OUT how things came to be - they are not creators! They do a lot of guessing using logic and philosophy! They admit when they wrong and continue their quest to get answers that are sensible to them and acceptable to other people who are also non-believers! :) 
  • logitextlogitext PEx Veteran ⭐⭐
    KidlatNgayon said:

    As I already said, the act is equivalent to STEALING which is a commandment of God not to be committed, that even you knew since you were a young child! :D


    No its not.



    KidlatNgayon said:

    So I guess what you are trying to say also is that you, Atheists, does a lot of "trial and error" to rationalize your "morality". 

    No. I am just saying that morality has a lot to do with how we feel. 


    KidlatNgayon said:

    First off, a minority of all criminals are killers. Within the range of killers, they can be anything from psychotics who enjoyed the killing, or psychotics who killed and don’t feel one way or another, to people who can not cope with it and ultimately kill themselves or shut down mentally because of their crimes. So what do you make of this group?

    Each one of us are born with varying degrees of human attributes. Some are born smarter, some are born more sensitive, some people are born with very little ability for empathy. And when such people with low empathy are raised in neglect or abusive environment, they fail to develop their empathy. The result is psychopathy.


    And scientists "defining" animals does not make what's written in the bible wrong! Remember that scientists only try to FIND OUT how things came to be - they are not creators! They do a lot of guessing using logic and philosophy! They admit when they wrong and continue their quest to get answers that are sensible to them and acceptable to other people who are also non-believers! :) 


    Just saying that you are an animal based on the scientific definition of the word.







  • KidlatNgayonKidlatNgayon Member PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    logitext said:
    KidlatNgayon said:

    As I already said, the act is equivalent to STEALING which is a commandment of God not to be committed, that even you knew since you were a young child! :D


    No its not.

    KidlatNgayon:
    If someone destroys someone's property or render them useless, that is tantamount to stealing them!  Whether you like it or not, rendering a property useless is equivalent to stealing them from the owner! Their punishment are the same.

    KidlatNgayon said:

    So I guess what you are trying to say also is that you, Atheists, does a lot of "trial and error" to rationalize your "morality". 

    No. I am just saying that morality has a lot to do with how we feel. 

    KidlatNgayon:
    People may "generally" feel to be good, but that doesn't mean they are good because what is good for some, may not be good for others. God is the only Judge!

    For example: For some, same-sex marriage is good but for others, it is not!

    KidlatNgayon said:

    First off, a minority of all criminals are killers. Within the range of killers, they can be anything from psychotics who enjoyed the killing, or psychotics who killed and don’t feel one way or another, to people who can not cope with it and ultimately kill themselves or shut down mentally because of their crimes. So what do you make of this group?

    Each one of us are born with varying degrees of human attributes. Some are born smarter, some are born more sensitive, some people are born with very little ability for empathy. And when such people with low empathy are raised in neglect or abusive environment, they fail to develop their empathy. The result is psychopathy.

    KidlatNgayon:
    Then you have "varying degrees" of morality and you cannot say for sure you are correct in every case. Whereas the declaration from the bible that God created all men righteous but they seek many schemes is applicable to all.
    And scientists "defining" animals does not make what's written in the bible wrong! Remember that scientists only try to FIND OUT how things came to be - they are not creators! They do a lot of guessing using logic and philosophy! They admit when they wrong and continue their quest to get answers that are sensible to them and acceptable to other people who are also non-believers! :) 


    Just saying that you are an animal based on the scientific definition of the word.

    KidlatNgayon:

    Your basis is in terms of physical composition of the nature of animals. Your scientific definition does not include MORALITY! :)







  • logitextlogitext PEx Veteran ⭐⭐
    KidlatNgayon said:

    KidlatNgayon:
    If someone destroys someone's property or render them useless, that is tantamount to stealing them!  Whether you like it or not, rendering a property useless is equivalent to stealing them from the owner! Their punishment are the same.


    No. The objective of theft is for the benefit of the thief. The objective of destruction of property is to offend/threaten/terrorize the victim, the vandal gains nothing.





    KidlatNgayon said:


    No. I am just saying that morality has a lot to do with how we feel. 

    KidlatNgayon:
    People may "generally" feel to be good, but that doesn't mean they are good because what is good for some, may not be good for others. God is the only Judge!

    For example: For some, same-sex marriage is good but for others, it is not!


    No thats not it. As an example, take slavery. Why do well all agree that its immoral even though the bible allows, or even encourage it? Its because we can feel the suffering of the slave. Otherwise if your slave is a smart robot incapable of feelings and suffering, then its no problem at all.




    KidlatNgayon said:



    KidlatNgayon:
    Then you have "varying degrees" of morality and you cannot say for sure you are correct in every case. Whereas the declaration from the bible that God created all men righteous but they seek many schemes is applicable to all.

    So do you. You have varying degrees of morality too.


    KidlatNgayon said:

    Just saying that you are an animal based on the scientific definition of the word.

    KidlatNgayon:

    Your basis is in terms of physical composition of the nature of animals. Your scientific definition does not include MORALITY! :)

    I was just saying that as an animal you and I were born with innate abilities from which we can produce morality standards.










  • AgapitoAgapito Member PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    The ancient roots of morality, can be reduced to the concept of pleasure and pain.

    What gives pleasure, is moral. What gives pain, is immoral. Later on, morality evolved to what is logically correct, rather than a simple pleasure or pain.

    Anal sex for example, can give pleasure just like regular sex, so by de facto it is moral. But then, some other people evolved the concept that it is not logical for a man to be copulating with another man. It does not make any sense. So they call the act as immoral.

    So now you have a group of people who says anal sex is moral, while another group of people who says it does not make sense so it is immoral. It just so happens that in the history of time, the Biblical evolution sided with the concept of anal sex being immoral.

    Biblical narratives, are Authoritative. That is why you have to obey. You are trained to obey. While with Atheism, it's a more individualistic freedom of choice.

    You can test this even in modern times, when in other countries women wearing shorts is a perfectly moral act. But in some Islamic countries, doing so is immoral.

    In Japan, perhaps wearing your shoes inside the house of someone else is immoral. Not so in other countries.

    So clearly, it does not matter whether you believe in God or not, any human being can develop a sense of morality. It just so happens that some Religious morality, are in conflict with some Atheist morality. And those who believe in God, are trying to fight and impose their will on those who are against their morality standards. And vice versa.

  • freakster2k1freakster2k1 Member PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    i suppose, by understanding a set principle, in my case, Kant's moral belief, it guides me in my actions.   
  • KidlatNgayonKidlatNgayon Member PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐

    KidlatNgayon said:

    As I already said, the act is equivalent to STEALING which is a commandment of God not to be committed, that even you knew since you were a young child! D

    logitext said:
    No its not.

    KidlatNgayon:

    Is slashing tires a felony in California?

    According to California law, anyone who defaces, damages, or destroys someone else's property is guilty of vandalism and can be charged with either amisdemeanor or a felony. ... That the amount of the damage exceeded $400 in afelony prosecution.

    Vandalism Defense Attorneys | Penal Code 594 | Redwood City ...

    https://www.ahmedandsukaram.com/Criminal-Defense/Crimes.../Vandalism.shtml

     

    What crimes make you a felon?

    Felonies include but are not limited to the following:

    ·        Murder.

    ·        Aggravated assault or battery.

    ·        Manslaughter (unintentional killing of another)

    ·        Animal cruelty.

    ·        Vehicular homicide.

    ·        Larceny.

    ·        Arson.

    ·        Burglary.

    More items...

    Felony - Wikipedia

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony

     

    Is theft different from larceny?

    In most jurisdictions there is no difference - larceny and theft are the same thing. intentional taking of the property of another without consent with the intent to permanently deprive them of the property. ... Burglary is the entering of the property of another with an intent to commit a crime therein.

    What are the differences between theft and larceny? - Quora

    https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-differences-between-theft-and-larceny

     


  • logitextlogitext PEx Veteran ⭐⭐

    KidlatNgayon said:

    As I already said, the act is equivalent to STEALING which is a commandment of God not to be committed, that even you knew since you were a young child! D

    logitext said:
    No its not.

    KidlatNgayon:

    Is slashing tires a felony in California?

    According to California law, anyone who defaces, damages, or destroys someone else's property is guilty of vandalism and can be charged with either amisdemeanor or a felony. ... That the amount of the damage exceeded $400 in afelony prosecution.

    Vandalism Defense Attorneys | Penal Code 594 | Redwood City ...

    https://www.ahmedandsukaram.com/Criminal-Defense/Crimes.../Vandalism.shtml

     

    What crimes make you a felon?

    Felonies include but are not limited to the following:

    ·        Murder.

    ·        Aggravated assault or battery.

    ·        Manslaughter (unintentional killing of another)

    ·        Animal cruelty.

    ·        Vehicular homicide.

    ·        Larceny.

    ·        Arson.

    ·        Burglary.

    More items...

    Felony - Wikipedia

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony 




    Now you are implying that murder is equivalent to theft.
    You do not understand, Felony simply means 'crime'


     

    Is theft different from larceny?

    In most jurisdictions there is no difference - larceny and theft are the same thing. intentional taking of the property of another without consent with the intent to permanently deprive them of the property. ... Burglary is the entering of the property of another with an intent to commit a crime therein.

    What are the differences between theft and larceny? - Quora

    https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-differences-between-theft-and-larceny

     



    Again you dont understand, larceny simply means theft.

    Our issue is destruction of property, or vandalism. Its different from theft simply because the objective is different.










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