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INC, Who are the 4 angels in rev.7:1? were they the big 4 or not??

TLGTLG The Dark Knight PExer
I made this thread because neil got me confuse about the identity of the 4 angels in Rev.7:1

Here is the transcript of what neil said, he clearly said the 4 angels were not the big-4.

4 angels caused war
Neil1984 wrote: »
..
In 1914, the 4 angels rampaged and caused a world war..


Big-4 in 1919 are not the 4 angels
Neil1984 wrote: »
I didn't say the 4 angels only appeared after 5 years

the Big-4 were just used by the 4 angels
Neil1984 wrote: »
Who said the Big 4 caused the war? I said they were the instruments of the 4 angels of destruction to hold back their own agenda. The 4 angels of destruction has its role, that is to do harm. That is their purpose.

The 4 Angels are spiritual hosts whose purpose is to harm the earth. The Big 4 were material beings used by the 4 angels of destruction to hold back the war they caused.

***********************

Then I read this post from kidlatngayon and from an INC blog affirming the big-4 were the 4 angels
http://www.iglesianicristowebsite.com/Pages/6a-prophecy-questions.html
The four angels who symbolized the Big Four in the Peace Conference in Versailles (Wilson, Lloyd George, Clemenceau, and Orlando) met in 1919 and the peace treaty they signed ended the First World War....

...In 1919, when the four angels were fulfilling their designated tasks, the work of the other angel which started in 1914 was already manifested – was seen ascending from the east...

...After these things, so the prophecy continued, the four angels were seen holding the winds. In fact the conference of the Big Four took place after the war had been waged, for had it not yet broken out, what winds would these angels be holding?....

....Whether or not the Big Four acknowledged that they were the four angels mentioned in that prophecy does not alter the truth that they fulfilled the prophecy concerning the angels that held the winds in Revelation 7:1. ...

...The Big Four were called angels in the prophecy because they were messengers (angels) of their respective nations (cf. I Pt. 2:13 -14; Is. 14:32). They were Wilson of the U.S.A. , Lloyd George of Great Britain , Orlando of Italy, and Clemenceau of France. ..

...Since the U.S. did not join the war until 1917, when Mr. Felix Manalo registered the Iglesia ni Cristo in 1914, there was no Big Four yet. There would have been only three of the angels.

..The four angels or the Big Four, as we have stated above, performed their tasks in the Peace Conference in 1919. It was during this time that the other angel was seen in a vision ascending from the east, not during or before the entrance of the United States in the war.

*******

So any INC can clarify which version of "4 angels" is correct? I tried asking tokay but he just kept beating around the bushes.
«134567

Comments

  • TLGTLG The Dark Knight PExer
    NO INC will clarify this? Let me put again in perspective the difference between neil's belief and the INC's belief..

    Neil: In 1914, the 4 angels rampaged and caused a world war.

    Kidlat/INC Blog: Since the U.S. did not join the war until 1917, there was no Big Four yet. There would have been only three of the angels.

    ***********

    Magkaiba db! Is it safe to assume neil hold an entirely different belief to that of the INC?
  • kurapika_hunterkurapika_hunter Beneath the coco palm PExer
    what if they wont response within 24hours? lol.

    im assuming naghahalungkat pa sila sa mga bibliya nila kung anu ikakatwiran nila. kahit nga yung international debater nila hindi na justify ang rev 7:1...all he claimed is, si manalo ang nasa propisiya...lol
  • Neil1984Neil1984 Member PExer
    Nabasa mo ba yung Pasugo na pinost ni RavlaM?

    I can't believe you twist my replies just to sway the readers and let it sound we contradict each other.

    Masyadong mababaw ang kaalaman mo sa anghel. Tsk... Tsk... No wonder you run your mouth and end up loosing any arguments.

    Anyways, you run your mouth long enough. I think it is time for you to explain your church's official interpretation. What is your magisterium's interpretation regarding this topic? If you can't give your church's interpretation, then clearly you do not have the right to declare our interpretation as failed.

    Do you know what is failure TLG? If you can't provide your church's official interpretation here.

    I advice my brethren to refrain from addressing his queries. After seeing how he twisted my replies just to suit his agenda, my respect for you just went down the drain.

    Now now now, post your church official interpretation. If you can't, then this thread merits no attention.
  • TLGTLG The Dark Knight PExer
    Neil1984 wrote: »
    I can't believe you twist my replies just to sway the readers and let it sound we contradict each other.

    What words did i twist???? Magka-kontra talaga paniniwala mo dun sa paniniwala ng INC

    Kahit basahin mo daloy ng usapan natin, I was the one assuming that the big 4 were the 4 angels at ikaw tong kontra ng kontra na ang big 4 ang 4 angels.. basahin mo sa ibaba..mapapansin mo na sa bandang dulo ng usapan nalito na ako kasi yung akala ko na "big4 = 4 angels" na paniniwala ng INC ay hindi mo pala paniniwala
    Neil1984 wrote: »
    In 1914, the 4 angels rampaged and caused a world war but at the same time, an angel of the east with the seal of the living God started to preach. In the east, the sealing commenced until the status of the sealing elevated from its former condition. The angel of the east with authority to seal ordered the 4 angels with the power of destruction to held back their activity until THEY (the angel of the east is no longer alone) seal the servants of God.

    Held back - temporary. Not permanent. The 4 angels have their roles, and so as the activity of sealing continues until the time of Judgement comes.
    TLG wrote: »
    Also, you said "In 1914, the 4 angels rampaged and caused a world war", again this is wrong as per history! The big 4 did not cause WW1!

    Stop revising history neil!
    Neil1984 wrote: »
    I didn't say the 4 angels only appeared after 5 years and I didn't say as well that the angel of the east started AHEAD of the 4 angels. Please understand my post very well.

    The big four were just beneficiary of unworldly assistance. They became the instrument of the four angels of destruction to hold back the war (wind). Like the verse tells us, "They had been allowed to harm the land and the sea." This is their role. But by the order of the angel of the east which bore the zeal of the living God, they temporarily held back the war.

    TLG wrote: »
    You did! "In 1914, the 4 angels rampaged and caused a world war-Neil"


    Are you saying that the Big 4 are not the 4 angels in Rev.7?? :glee: naku neil hindi ganyan ang turo ng INC!:lol:
    Neil1984 wrote: »
    The 4 Angels are spiritual hosts whose purpose is to harm the earth. The Big 4 were material beings used by the 4 angels of destruction to hold back the war they caused.


    ************

    Ayan neil buong transcript..kaya pala hindi tayo magkaintidihan eh para sayo hindi ang BIg4 and 4 angels, ginamit lang ng 4 angels ang big four! Well maling-mali yan sa paniniwala ng INC... ang INC paniniwala nila mismo na ang Big 4 ang 4 angels! Nung hindi pa nga kasali ang US bago mag 1917," there were only 3 angels" lang daw noon...ikaw naman sabi mo 1914 pa lang buo na ang 4 angels! :lol:

    Wala akong tini-twist.. sadyang iba lang ang paniniwala mo sa paniniwala ni Manalo.... iiwan mo na ba ang INC dahil magkaiba kayo ng paniniwala???:lol:

    ******
    Neil1984 wrote: »
    I advice my brethren to refrain from addressing his queries. After seeing how he twisted my replies just to suit his agenda, my respect for you just went down the drain.

    We know neil wala akong masamang agenda...you advicing your brethren to refrain shows takot ka talaga kasi alam mong maling-mali ang pinagsasabi mo!
  • Neil1984Neil1984 Member PExer
    Hay naku. Dahil wala kang alam sa role ng mga anghel, malamang sasabog ang utak mo sa kaka-isip.

    Para malinawan ka:

    First and foremost, the role of the 4 Angels is to harm the Earth. The role of the angel of the east is to seal the servants of God. These angels perform their function according to their purpose.

    This is parallel with the prophecy in Matthew concerning a global war. The global war did occur! This is not a failure of the 4 angels but rather they caused it because that is their purpose, to harm the earth! Understand?

    Now in Revelation 7, the angel of the east started to preach concerning the end time prophecy to seal as much as many before the end comes. He was already sealing during the war and as his work began to elevate, the angel of the east ordered the 4 angels whose function was to harm the earth to hold back the war they have caused! Understand?

    To do so, they used humanity in the person of the big 4 to hold back the war. Thus, the 4 angels, using the big 4, became the instrument to hold back the war.


    Ibang tao magtatanong, that would be genuine. Pero ikaw, na nasa personal vendetta na, malabong genuine ang ginagawa mo. :rolleyes:
  • TLGTLG The Dark Knight PExer
    Neil1984 wrote: »
    Hay naku. Dahil wala kang alam sa role ng mga anghel, malamang sasabog ang utak mo sa kaka-isip.

    Para malinawan ka:

    First and foremost, the role of the 4 Angels is to harm the Earth. The role of the angel of the east is to seal the servants of God. These angels perform their function according to their purpose.

    This is parallel with the prophecy in Matthew concerning a global war. The global war did occur! This is not a failure of the 4 angels but rather they caused it because that is their purpose, to harm the earth! Understand?

    Now in Revelation 7, the angel of the east started to preach concerning the end time prophecy to seal as much as many before the end comes. He was already sealing during the war and as his work began to elevate, the angel of the east ordered the 4 angels whose function was to harm the earth to hold back the war they have caused! Understand?

    To do so, they used humanity in the person of the big 4 to hold back the war. Thus, the 4 angels, using the big 4, became the instrument to hold back the war.


    Ibang tao magtatanong, that would be genuine. Pero ikaw, na nasa personal vendetta na, malabong genuine ang ginagawa mo. :rolleyes:

    I no longer wanted to know your "views" about the four angels in revelation..clearly it's not an INC view given how you don't want your brethren to clear the issue... the mod can close this thread now.
  • almario38almario38 Member PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    Jul2714WWI10.jpg

    ’Big Four’-1. Lloyd George (PM of England) 2.Orlando(PM of Italy) 3.Clemenceau(PM of France) 4. Woodrow Wilson (President of USA)
  • JagonJagon Don't listen to me PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    kala ko si tito vic and joey.

    ay kulang ng isa, si aiza na lang yung isa tutal mukang lalake na siya
  • TLGTLG The Dark Knight PExer
    Kidlat pakisagot nga kung tama ang pinagsasabi ni neil kasi kung mali naman ang sinasabi niya ukol sa doktrina nyo, db napapasama ang doktrina nyo kung magkagayon?

    Tama ba ang sinabi ni neil na yung 4 angels daw sa rev.7:1 ang dahilan kaya nagka-WW1 noong 1914? Db isang malaking contradiksyon ito sa turo ng INC nagsasabing walang 4 angels bago mag 1917??? Pakisagot na please!
  • Neil1984Neil1984 Member PExer
    Hindi mo kasi kayang intindihin ang Revelation. Hindi na ako magtataka kasi nangangapa lang din kayo. Tama ba?
    Ahihihi...

    Ika nga, you bluff as the authority pero wala naman talagang laman ang pinagsasasabi.
  • TLGTLG The Dark Knight PExer
    Neil1984 wrote: »
    Hindi mo kasi kayang intindihin ang Revelation. Hindi na ako magtataka kasi nangangapa lang din kayo. Tama ba?
    Ahihihi...

    Ika nga, you bluff as the authority pero wala naman talagang laman ang pinagsasasabi.

    Bakit ka ba sagot ng sagot eh hidni naman ikaw ang tinatanong ko?????????? :glee:
  • KidlatNgayonKidlatNgayon Member PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    TLG wrote: »
    Kidlat pakisagot nga kung tama ang pinagsasabi ni neil kasi kung mali naman ang sinasabi niya ukol sa doktrina nyo, db napapasama ang doktrina nyo kung magkagayon?

    Tama ba ang sinabi ni neil na yung 4 angels daw sa rev.7:1 ang dahilan kaya nagka-WW1 noong 1914? Db isang malaking contradiksyon ito sa turo ng INC nagsasabing walang 4 angels bago mag 1917??? Pakisagot na please!

    1 Timothy 6:3 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, 4 he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions,…
  • FerdinandFerdinand Member PExer
    Sana sagutin mo na lang nang diretsa ang tanong ni TLG kesa ganyan na generalization ang sagot.
  • KidlatNgayonKidlatNgayon Member PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    Ferdinand wrote: »
    Sana sagutin mo na lang nang diretsa ang tanong ni TLG kesa ganyan na generalization ang sagot.

    Well, mga kaibigang TLG at Ferdi, this is what it boils down to:

    -magkaiba tayo ng Doctrina
    -naniniwala kami na sa amin ang tamang doctrina based on the Holy Scriptures (and no other references, esp man-made doctrines or mga isinulat ng mga "Early Church Fathers" nyo na wala sa biblia)
    -Magkapatid kami ni Neil sa pananampalataya
    -Para kay TLG ay magkaiba ang sagot namin sa tanong nya
    -Ngayon ay ginagamit nya ako para ipamukhang mali ang sinabi ng Kapatid ko:

    1 Timothy 6:3 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, 4 he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, 5 and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.

    At saka nasagot ko na ito sa kabilang thread. I will not let this foolish query of TLG stand between my brother and I.
  • Neil1984Neil1984 Member PExer
    Yeah. Tuso talaga si TLG. Ilang beses na nagattempt yan para ibahin ang tunay na mensahe natin. Pero di uubra yan kung alam mo ang katotohanan. Kaya nga hinamon ko siya ng debate kasi ang hilig sumira ng real messege.

    Ayos lang yan brod. We are not obliged to answer them.
  • TLGTLG The Dark Knight PExer
    -Magkapatid kami ni Neil sa pananampalataya
    -Para kay TLG ay magkaiba ang sagot namin sa tanong nya

    Magkaiba talaga ang paniniwala mo sa paniniwala ni neil patungkol sa 4 angels, and i gave a detailed explanation. It will do you no good kung patuloy mo lang na hindi papansinin ang kamalian ng kapatid mo at patuloy niyang ipagpipilitan na paniniwalang INC ito kasi eto sabi ni pablo kung may kapatid ka sa pananampalataya na iba ang paniniwala..


    2 Tesalonica 3:15Ang Dating Biblia (1905) (ADB1905)
    15 At gayon ma'y huwag ninyong ariin siyang kaaway, kundi inyo siyang paalalahanan tulad sa kapatid.


    See how neil is trying his best to pass his belief as INC belief by telling you to keep silent???

    Alam mo kidlat pwede mong -irebuke si neil in private, pero aminin mo lang na sa paniniwalang INC eh 1917 lang nagkaroon ng 4 angels, malayong-malayo ito sa pinagsasabi ni neil na noong 1914 ang 4 angels ang may dala ng WW1. neil is sowing confusion sa mga paniniwala ng INC, ako nga nalito eh kaya pala di kami magkaintidihan ni neil sa usaping 4 angels kasi iba pala paniniwala niya sa 4 angels ng revelations eh!:lol:
  • TLGTLG The Dark Knight PExer
    Neil1984 wrote: »
    Ilang beses na nagattempt yan para ibahin ang tunay na mensahe natin.

    Huwag mo akong gawing sinungaling neil..nakalagay ang link ng usapan natin..wala akong binabago sa sinabi mo na "In 1914, the 4 angels rampaged and caused a world war"..ano ang binago ko diyan???? wala! Ikaw na itong nagsisinungaling para pagtakpan ang kapalpakan mo dahil iba ang paniniwala mo sa INC.
  • kurapika_hunterkurapika_hunter Beneath the coco palm PExer
    Neil1984 wrote: »
    Yeah. Tuso talaga si TLG. Ilang beses na nagattempt yan para ibahin ang tunay na mensahe natin. Pero di uubra yan kung alam mo ang katotohanan. Kaya nga hinamon ko siya ng debate kasi ang hilig sumira ng real messege.

    Ayos lang yan brod. We are not obliged to answer them.

    hehehe..hindi nyo kasi kayang i sustain yung logic nyo when TLG cross examine the subject matter. Nahahanapan nya kayo ng butas kasi nga MALI ang turo sa inyo..:naughty:
  • TLGTLG The Dark Knight PExer
    ^^^ huling huli na nga nagpapalusot si neil:lol: Si kidlat naman ayaw siyang i-correct...sabi sa bibliya dapat i-correct ang kapatid na may maling panininwala!
  • Neil1984Neil1984 Member PExer
    Bluff lang lahat ng bigtalks ninyo. Iniiwasan mo ko kahit noon pa man. Pero it doesn't matter. It doesn't change the fact I'm chasing you with your bluffs. Harapin mo ko Revelation verse by verse. My arguments supports INC doctrines kaya yun ang punteryahin mo.

    Total magaling ka daw eh.

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