May kapatid ba si Jesus?

darknight10

Sabi sa bible, may mga "brother" siya, James, Joseph, Judas and Simon. May mga "sisters" din daw siya. Ano sa tingin niyo?

crocopie

Would you stay in a relationship with a girl without getting laid for the rest of your life?

Malamang oo. Tao rin sila.

cretinous00

^
strange reply.

ElCid

Wala bang titindig na protestante ebanghelico dito para pagkatapos eh kami naman magpapaliwanag kung ano yang nasa Mark 6:3|?

evilmerodac

what the ****ing question. Nakasulat naman pala sa Bible . Itatanong pa... Dapat dito sa mga nagbabasa ng Bible pinapalo ng libro ng matauhan...

crocopie

My theology professor in my college years said it's not a major tenet in the faith.

My alma mater is a Catholic University.

What is stopping Joseph to have sex with Mary and have children after Jesus was born? Marital sex is celebrated and encouraged in Jewish tradition. And suppose she did have children after Jesus, how would that make her less divine?

For me, I think it is not important if Mary had biological children or if she remained a virgin forever. Maybe she is, maybe not.

Here is a clip from Dogma. Skip to 5:15

darknight10

cretinous00 wrote: »

^
strange reply.

really strange.

Some people are trying to look smart and that gesture just proves if they really are. Not.

What's strange here is the Church isn't really particular about it. We never knew in our elementary and high school that he has brothers and sisters(assuming it's true).

rambler

The Bible is clear on this. Joseph did not have sexual relations with Mary until Jesus was born. (Matthew 1:25) After his birth, they went on to have a normal husband and wife relationship. The Bible has also plainly said that Jesus has half-brothers and half-sisters. (Matthew 13:55)

Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him. (Mark 6:3)

This verse says that the people who were listening at Jesus in the synagogue "took offense at him". In other words, they were offended, because they could not accept the fact that Jesus, a simple man that comes from a normal family with brothers and sisters, could be someone special. This is practically where Israel stumbled. They imagined the Messiah to be of royal origins, not from a lowly family residing in Nazareth.

There was an instance where a woman listening to Jesus said, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you." (Luke 11:27)

Jesus replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it." (Luke 11:28) Jesus did not, by any means, insult Mary, His human mother. Rather, He was simply saying that although Mary was chosen by God to give birth to the Messiah, it does not in anyway elevate her status to a demi-god.

If you examine the early church from Acts to Jude, you will see that they only have one message: JESUS. Jesus is the only way to God and He is the one that deserves all worship and attention and adoration. The early church strove to share this gospel, this singular message wherever they went.

Contrast that with the RCC teachings which offers so many diversions: praying to saints, praying to Mary, paying indulgence to receive pardon, focusing on the pope, elevating human traditions over Scriptures, salvation by works instead of God's grace alone, etc.

Where did this mother/son worship came from?

Its origins came from none other than the Ancient Babylon. My next post would be a huge eye-opener for you as I am going to detail how this ancient worship has morphed into various empires and survived to this day.

rambler

Where did the mother/son worship come from?

Before I go on with tracing its history, let me just say that I do not mean to sow intrigue or malice. I am saying this in a matter-of-fact way, hoping that the reader would consider what was presented, examine the truth closely, and decide for himself.

In Revelation 18 and 19, we see God's judgment over Babylon. Apparently, God hates Babylon so much that 2 chapters of Revelation was dedicated about her impending judgment. The announcement that Babylon would be destroyed is made right before the Second Coming. This begs the question, what on earth is Babylon and why does God hate her so much?

In Genesis 11, we read a story about a group of men who decided they could no longer wait for the Messiah that said among themselves, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.” (Genesis 11:4)

This incident gave birth to humanism - which is man's attempt to carve his own destiny apart from God. Humanism is basically striving to find meaning and success without God's help. This is human pride at its worst.

And thus the Tower of Babel was constructed, and the first human government was instituted with Nimrod as the leader. Seeing this rebellion, God pronounced judgment by confusing the languages of the people. This resulted to them being scattered, some to the farthest corners of the world.

There is a certain group of people that remained within the area, and I believe they were responsible for perpetrating the practices of Ancient Babylon such as mother/sun worship throughout generations.

According to legends, Nimrod had a wife named Semiramis. They had a son named Tammuz. When Nimrod died, Semiramis claimed him to be the reincarnation of Tammuz, and thus began the worship of mother and son that has survived to this day. Semiramis came to be known as the "Queen of Heaven", "Fertility Goddess", "Mother of God", etc.

Revelation 17:10 shows that there are 7 kings since Israel's birth as a nation. They are the Egyptian Empire, Assyrian Empire, Babylonian Empire (not to be confused with Ancient Babylon), Medo-Persian Empire, Greek Empire, Roman Empire, and the coming Revived Roman Empire. It's remarkable to note that the worship of Semiramis has evolved with each empire:

Egyptian Empire - Isis and Horus (you can see pictures of infant Horus sitting on Isis' lap online)
Assyrian Empire - Semiramis and Ninyas
Babylonian Empire - Ishtar and Tammuz
Medo-Pesian Empire - Semiramis (Shammuramat)
Greek Empire - Aphrodite, Artemis, Athena, Gaea (these are often pictured having a son)
Roman Empire - Venus, Diana, Minerva, Ceres, Juno, Vesta, etc.

As you can see, there is a strong pattern that the worship of Mary came from ancient empires. Mary is not only revered by Catholics, but also by the Muslims (they call her Maryam). Other indigenous cultures also feature the same, like Khrishna and Devaki in India and Shing Moo in China. I suggest that you google their pictures and you would be astounded by how common the image of mother-and-child worship is among various cultures. And all of that are traceable to the Ancient Babylon that was the birthplace of all religions invented by man.

curiouser

The problem we have, unfortunately, is semantics, and not a lot of source material, especially for sola scriptura advocates.

So, either we take the words literally, as how they were written and translated, or we dig deeper and find the underlying context. However, the latter would force you to look at source material other than Holy Scripture, and therefore automatically becomes a no-go zone for sola scriptura advocates.

So, it's an impasse. And, really, an irrelevant point if you ask me.

ElCid

curiouser wrote: »

The problem we have, unfortunately, is semantics, and not a lot of source material, especially for sola scriptura advocates.

So, either we take the words literally, as how they were written and translated, or we dig deeper and find the underlying context. However, the latter would force you to look at source material other than Holy Scripture, and therefore automatically becomes a no-go zone for sola scriptura advocates.

So, it's an impasse. And, really, an irrelevant point if you ask me.

Since an evangelical already took a stand on this issue that Mary the mother of Jesus has brothers and sisters based on Mark 6:3, allow me a catholic to present our stand. Unfortunately, the evangelical interpretation is a common mistaken interpretation of the verse who apparently states that the Lord Jesus has brothers and sisters:

3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James and Joses, and of Judas and Simon3? And are not his sisters here with us?” And they were offended at Him.

The verse even names his so called brothers: James and Joses, and of Judas and Simon and alludes that he too had sisters. However, Mary the mother of Jesus isn't the only one who is named Mary in scripture. This Mary who is the mother of James and Joses, and of Judas and Simon isn't the same Mary the mother of Jesus our Lord or he would be identified as such by the gospel writers:

Mark 15:40
There were also women looking on afar off, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the Less and of Joses, and Salome

Mark 15:47
And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where He was laid.

Matthew 27:56
Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of Zebedee's sons.

It is obvious therefore that this isn't Mary the Mother of Jesus but another Mary - the wife of Clopas, the sister of Mary the Mother of our Lord Jesus:

John 19:25New King James Version (NKJV)
Behold Your Mother

25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.

It is therefore clear from scripture that this isn't Mary the mother of Jesus but another Mary who is supposed to be the sister of the mother of Jesus. These brothers and sisters therefore are cousins of our Lord Jesus Christ according to scripture.

It is also interesting to note that if the Lord Jesus had other siblings, why would he entrust his mother to an apostle after his death on the cross and not to his own brothers and sisters? And we see here the three (3) Mary's juxta-positioned against each other:

25Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman,b here is your son,” 27and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home. John 19

The evangelical stand on this issue therefore is misleading and based on only a select verse in the bible.

curiouser

^Thanks for that.

I was aware of the argument about Jesus entrusting Mary to John as proof of her perpetual virginity, but I wasn't fully aware of all the instances when a Mary was mentioned that it may not necessarily refer to the Mother of Jesus. If only the New Testament Biblical women had more varied names.

Ferdinand

Mary is the Ark of the Covenant, and the Ark of the Covenant only contains the manna, the authority of a Aaron and the word of God, all fulfilled in Jesus, and Jesus is the only one in the Ark, no one else.

jagaruga

To add to the arguments mentioned above, the Greek term brother (adelphos) used in the verse has a broad meaning. It could mean biological brother or a close relative.

Ferdinand

Pati nga ka-tribo ang tawag, kapatid.

Theatheist

It doesn't really matter whether Christ had half brothers or sisters or even none. The whole point is whether Mary remained a virgin even when married to Joseph for such a long time.

So, using the argument of the existence of Christ's brothers and sisters as proof of Mary's non-virginity or using the argument of the existence of Christ's cousins, brothers in Christ, or other "Mary" persons in the Bible as proof of Mary's virginity are arguments hard to resolve because both arguments can be right on both side's point of view.

According to Jewish law, Mary was already a violator of the law in which she will face the death penalty because Joseph has found her to be pregnant and thus nullifying her virginity.

---

"Deuteronomy 22:23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

---

Joseph, being faithful to the law, knew the consequences. He had compassion for Mary and had in mind not to expose her to public disgrace by divorcing her secretly. But, an angel appeared to him in a dream and told Joseph not to be afraid because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

---

Matthew 1

24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

----

After the revelation, Joseph did not continue with the divorce but took Mary as his wife. But, Joseph did not CONSUMMATE their marriage UNTIL she gave birth.

What is consummate?

consummate
verb (transitive) ( ˈkɒnsəˌmeɪt)
to complete (the union of a marriage) by the first marital sexual intercourse.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/consummate

As the verse reveals, Joseph had sex with Mary only after the birth of Christ. Joseph being faithful to the law, had to fulfill the duty of all Jews to go forth and multiply (Mishnah Yevamot 6.6). According to the Talmud, Yevamot 64a, "If a man has taken a wife and been with her ten years, and she has not born a child – he must divorce her and pay her the sum of her ketubbah,".

Joseph, being faithful to the law and as a Jew himself has to consummate the marriage and bear children with Mary. Otherwise, he will have to divorce her and get another wife to bear his children. It is really impossible for any man to "hold back" all his sexual desires for his wife for the rest of his life or his desires to have sons and daughters of his own. Even if the wife is barren, it doesn't mean they don't have sex at all. Absence of children is not proof of absence of sex.

ElCid

Theatheist wrote: »

It doesn't really matter whether Christ had half brothers or sisters or even none. The whole point is whether Mary remained a virgin even when married to Joseph for such a long time.

It matters since it is the thread topic - if Jesus had siblings. You can have another topic if Mary remained a virgin after being married to Joseph.

Ferdinand

Wala talagang alam sa typology ang mga born again at evangelicals. Kung yung founder ng protestantism virigin ang tingin kay Mary eh. So kitang kita na the more people move from the One Church the more the doctrines change to their own liking.

Equis

Eh ano ito?

Gal 1:19
19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

Iyan iyung Apostol daw ng TSAMBAHANG KATOLIKO.

Ferdinand

Nagbabasa ka ba ng mga poste namin? Paki basa na lang uli ang posts ni ElCid at jagaruga.

ElCid

Equis wrote: »

Eh ano ito?

Gal 1:19
19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

Iyan iyung Apostol daw ng TSAMBAHANG KATOLIKO.

Naiposte na yan b0b.

Mark 15:40
There were also women looking on afar off, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the Less and of Joses, and Salome

Mark 15:47
And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where He was laid.

Matthew 27:56
Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of Zebedee's sons.

Yang Mary na yan - wife of Clopas hindi si Virgin Mary so hindi yan kapatid - pinsan yan dahil si Mary wife of clopas - sister ni Virgin Mary or relative. Magback read ka na lang. Otherwise the gospel writers would have identified her as Mary the mother of Jesus.