Kung si Cristo ay tao lamang, hindi siya puedeng ialay sa Dios para tubusin ang tao
ElCid
Roman Catholic
Kung si Cristo ay tao lamang, hindi siya puedeng ialay sa Dios para tubusin ang kasalanan ng tao sa sanglibutan. Inilipat ko lang yung paksa dito para hindi mahijack iyong isang thread:
Tao ba ang inialay sa Dios para tubusin ang kasalanan ng sanglibutan? Hindi. Dahil kung tao lamang yung inaalay sa Dios di niya kayang tubusin ang kasalanan ng sanglibutan:
No man can redeem the life of another, nor can he give to God a sufficient payment for him Psalm 49:7
At kung tao yung inialay - di yun katanggap tanggap sa Dios at ang katunayan ipinagbabawal nga niya since God hates human sacrifice at ayaw niyang sambahin siya sa ganun ding paraan:
31 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods. Deut 12:31
So kung di ka pala kayang tubusin ng tao at kasuklam suklam pala ilaalay sa Dios ang tao - ano ngayon yung inalay? Dios or God incarnate himself dahil Dios lamang ang TANGING tigapagligtas at manunubos:
You will drink the milk of nations and be nursed at royal breasts. Then you will know that I, the LORD, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob. Isa 60:16
So it was God incarnate who sacrificed himself for the redemption of man since no MAN CAN REDEEM THE LIFE OF ANOTHER.
Tao ba ang inialay sa Dios para tubusin ang kasalanan ng sanglibutan? Hindi. Dahil kung tao lamang yung inaalay sa Dios di niya kayang tubusin ang kasalanan ng sanglibutan:
No man can redeem the life of another, nor can he give to God a sufficient payment for him Psalm 49:7
At kung tao yung inialay - di yun katanggap tanggap sa Dios at ang katunayan ipinagbabawal nga niya since God hates human sacrifice at ayaw niyang sambahin siya sa ganun ding paraan:
31 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods. Deut 12:31
So kung di ka pala kayang tubusin ng tao at kasuklam suklam pala ilaalay sa Dios ang tao - ano ngayon yung inalay? Dios or God incarnate himself dahil Dios lamang ang TANGING tigapagligtas at manunubos:
You will drink the milk of nations and be nursed at royal breasts. Then you will know that I, the LORD, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob. Isa 60:16
So it was God incarnate who sacrificed himself for the redemption of man since no MAN CAN REDEEM THE LIFE OF ANOTHER.
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Comments
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Well, simple lang naman talaga ang logic ng pagiging Diyos ni Jesus.
Ewan ko kung tinatawag ng mga INC members ang God nila na God the Father? (Tinatawag nga ba nilang Father ang God nila?) kung tinatawag nilang God the Father ibig sabihin naniniwala silang may Anak yung God na yun. ( Di ko din maintindihan kung bat tinatawag ng mga katoliko ang pari nila na father eh wala naman silang anak ).
So ibig sabihin sa part ng INC kung tinatawag nila Ama ang Diyos nila ibig sabihin nga ay may anak at kung may anak yung Diyos ibig sabihin yung nature nung anak ay Diyos din, alangan namang tao.
Di naman pwedeng manganak ang tao ng hayop vice versa di ba?
So sino ba ang nag iisang anak ng Diyos Ama, di ba si Jesus? Kaya si Jesus ay isa ring Diyos.0 -
Well, simple lang naman talaga ang logic ng pagiging Diyos ni Jesus.
Ewan ko kung tinatawag ng mga INC members ang God nila na God the Father? (Tinatawag nga ba nilang Father ang God nila?) kung tinatawag nilang God the Father ibig sabihin naniniwala silang may Anak yung God na yun. (Di ko din maintindihan kung bat tinatawag ng mga katoliko ang pari nila na father eh wala naman silang anak ).
So ibig sabihin sa part ng INC kung tinatawag nila Ama ang Diyos nila ibig sabihin nga ay may anak at kung may anak yung Diyos ibig sabihin yung nature nung anak ay Diyos din, alangan namang tao.
Di naman pwedeng manganak ang tao ng hayop vice versa di ba?
So sino ba ang nag iisang anak ng Diyos Ama, di ba si Jesus? Kaya si Jesus ay isa ring Diyos.
Kase ama/father talaga yung mga mangangaral kay Cristo sa pamamagitan ng evangelio ayon sa biblia:
15 Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 1 Cor 4:15
Anyway back to the topic bago mahijack lols0 -
I agree. Jesus is true God and true Man.
John 10:30
Jesus said, I and the Father are one.
John 20:28
Thomas said to him [Jesus], My Lord and my God!
Romans 9:5
"Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen."
2 Peter 1:1
"To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:"
AND
Titus 1:11-14
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say No to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hopethe appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
Titus 1:15 tells us:
These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.0 -
A lot of Evangelicals and BAs did not bother to as the basic questions about Christianity. For example:
1. Why did God create man?
2. Why did He choose Israel?
3. What is the purpose of the Messiah
1. Catholics are taught that God created us to be united with Him. God is Love and God is holy, He is an INFINITE SOURCE OF GOODNESS. IF there is justice, love, mercy, etc. on earth then God the creator possess them perfectly. So if he possesses all these things then why did He create us? Did He need His creation? Of course not! What do philosophers say about goodness? Goodness diffuses itself, it shares itself, and it spread itself. God communicates this goodness, his attributes. He communicates His glory in an infinite way (think of the Trinity) and in a finite way (think of the creation). He created us with free will and the capacity to love.
The sin man had committed had flaunted the will of God. God whose will govern the universe could not disregard that sin without upsetting the moral order of the entire creation. Even though in His mercy He might wish to overlook man's transgression He could not do so without being immoral, and this would be contrary to His nature.
To maintain moral order, satisfaction must be given. That satisfaction must be fully equal to the offense. Since the sin is man's, satisfaction must be given by man. Pero ang tao ay walang maibibigay na katumbas o mahigit pa sa utang niya sa Diyos! Wala! Kahit pa sa mga sumunod niyang gawain ay manatili siyang tapat sa Diyos, ito ay hindi sapat sapagkat ang sundin ang kalooban ng Diyos ay tungkulin ng tao, hindi ito kabayaran.
God knows this so, it is God who MUST restore the glory of God that the devil stole thru the sin of man. But He restores it in a way that will bridge the gap between man and God, the infinite and the finite, with the help of man. God created man with the intention that man will choose Him to enjoy Him in eternity (free will), to share God's supreme goodness. He equipped man for that and yet man when tested chose otherwise. While none but man can make the satisfaction to compensate for man's sin, ONLY GOD can make that satisfaction, for the satisfaction must be equal or greater than anything in the universe except God! That satisfaction therefore must be made by one who is both God and man.
2. That is the reason for the incarnation! INC, Muslims, atheist and agnostics cannot understand this, for reasons that I can only speculate. By the incarnation, Jesus Christ, fully God and fully man abridged man to God. He became the bridge to reconcile man to God. Only He could make the needed satisfaction and enable God to forgive man without doing violence to the moral balance of the universe. From that we can see that NO man by himself can save man.
But the incarnate Son had to come from a certain group of people, right? God prepares the things that he does in a divine way. The messiah had to come to a certain culture, certain religion, certain group of people, certain community, certain family, certain parents and that group of people MUST have the teaching of God, the morals of God. Israel is called to be the transmitter of the blessings of God to humanity.
For two thousand years of Jewish history, century after century, prophesies were introduced for the sake of the messiah. In comparison with other religions, no prophesies were introduce for their gods or founders! For example how many prophesies preceded Mohammad? None! How about the pagan gods? None! Even Moses, Elijah, Abraham were not subject of prophecies! All prophecies center on the messiah and his kingdom and this is why I dont understand why the INCs had to steal the prophecies of the Messiah and His Kingdom and apply them to Manalo and the Iglesia Ni Cristo.
God intended man to be with Him in eternity, right? But man sinned again and again. We see this in the creation from Adam to the time of Enoch to Exodus and Numbers, to the Joshua and the Conquest, to the Davidic Kingdom, the Divided Kingdom, the Exile and Return and so on. The Jews were unfaithful to God despite God's faithfulness to them. So makikita natin sa historya ng mga Judyo na ilang beses silang sinuyo ng Diyos na parang manliligaw upang bumalik at maging tapat sa Kanya.
Kaya nga ang salavation history katulad na sinasabi ko sa ibang thread ay it begins with the marriage of and Adam and Eve, MARITAL, it ends in a marriage. Sa New Testament makikita mo kung ilang beses na nagbigay ng parables tungkol sa kasal ng Hari sa Church niya. Sa Revelation makikita natin kung paano natupad ang kasal na ito.
Sa New Testaments nakita natin kung paano ginamit ng Gospel writers yung typology to make the Scriptures easy to understand. John used a lot of typology to make us understand that Jesus perfectly recapitulated all the 7 Jewish Feasts. Think about why did John do that? Or how about Matthew, why did Matthew used a lot of typology in explaining the Kingdom of God? He drew a lot from the Davidic Kingdom to point to Jesus and His Church why?
3. The Messiah had to enter humanity (think of the Gospel of John) for the sake of humanity. He had to suffer for sake of humanity. When God told Adam and Eve that they will die, that death is not just physical but more on the spiritual side. That is what really made the big gap. The plan is to restore us sons of God Thru the Son, that is the purpose of the Messiah.0 -
syempre may lusot na ang INC dyan. so lets wait for menorrah ...
Flawed argument from the start.
So if no MAN can redeem the life of another, why would God change into a form of a man that won't be able to redeem the life of another?
This is like saying boat can't fly....let me change this airplane to a boat or plane-boat combo because I want it to fly....
no need, for an air plane could fly already.
Why not try this? Since no man can redeem a life of another, why can't God being all powerful just save every one?
No. He wouldn't do that for it will not serve justice.
How about Jesus, a sinless man, redeeming not another but his own body? Perfect answer.0 -
Then answer my partial explanation for this thread. I gave a starter to WHY man ALONE cannot redeem himself from the offense he committed against God. Are you saying that man ALONE can redeem himself from eternal fire? Show us how!Flawed argument from the start.
So if no MAN can redeem the life of another, why would God change into a form of a man that won't be able to redeem the life of another?
This is like saying boat can't fly....let me change this airplane to a boat or plane-boat combo because I want it to fly....
no need, for an air plane could fly already.
Why not try this? Since no man can redeem a life of another, why can't God being all powerful just save every one?
No. He wouldn't do that for it will not serve justice.
How about Jesus, a sinless man, redeeming not another but his own body? Perfect answer.0 -
Then answer my partial explanation for this thread. I gave a starter to WHY man ALONE cannot redeem himself from the offense he committed against God. Are you saying that man ALONE can redeem himself from eternal fire? Show us how!
Your argument is based on the premise that sinful man cannot redeem himself, in which i agree. What is the punishment of sin? Death
Thus, all sinful man must die.
But there is this man who didn't sin. Can that man redeem himself? What for?0 -
because a god who appears as a man is still a god?So if no MAN can redeem the life of another, why would God change into a form of a man that won't be able to redeem the life of another?How about Jesus, a sinless man, redeeming not another but his own body? Perfect answer.
why would jesus need to redeem himself if he was already sinless?
i dont think you have reconciled the verse in pslams with the INC position about christ the man who redeemed mankind.0 -
because a god who appears as a man is still a god?
why would jesus need to redeem himself if he was already sinless?
i dont think you have reconciled the verse in pslams with the INC position about christ the man who redeemed mankind.
Good question. So why did Jesus die if he is sinless? He died for his body which is the church. The church is composed of sinful people that needs salvation.
He did not redeem another.0 -
why not? infants die too and they are sinless.Good question. So why did Jesus die if he is sinless?He died for his body which is the church. The church is composed of sinful people that needs salvation.
He did not redeem another.
what, jesus wasnt a redeemer? thats what inc believes???0 -
You are missing my main point. Sin is a contrary to the holiness of God, which is one of His attributes. Satan stole the glory of God thru the sin of man, and man is created to be with God. When man sinned he disconnected the gifts of Grace which is the ONLY thing that connects him to God. Man ALONE cannot RESTORE these GRACE and GLORY, ONLY God can do this.Your argument is based on the premise that sinful man cannot redeem himself, in which i agree. What is the punishment of sin? Death
Thus, all sinful man must die.
But there is this man who didn't sin. Can that man redeem himself? What for?
So what is God to do? Forget man and let him die with Satan in hell? No, right? He had to do something to restore grace so that man can commune with God again and only Him can restore His glory. How Can God do this without violating his attribute of JUSTICE, He had to be a man Himself so that he can redeem man from his sin, from the powers of death, since the wage of sin is death. Can an finite man (sinful or not) ALONE restore the glory of the infinite God? What power does man have to do that? NONE! Man alone does not have the capacity nor the power to restore the glory of God. The only thing that unite him with God, God's grace was thrown out of the window when man sinned, so nothing a man possess can restore God.0 -
Can an finite man (sinful or not) ALONE restore the glory of the infinite God?
Which is why when Christ created the church He needed God's blessing. That is why in no other name beside Christ's can save people.
You can't just declare one day that you're gonna build a church and expect it to work without God's express permission.
Also, God is a SPIRIT. And He isn't a liar that He should be man.
It's all in there in the Bible, unlike the "trinity" which you can't find a single verse of.0 -
So mahina ang pagkakakilala ninyo sa Diyos? Siya na lumikha ng lahat ng nakikita at hindi nakikita, hind kayang magkatawang tao? How can a mere man bridge the gap between and the infinite and the finite beings? How can a mere man restore the glory of God? What power or capability does a mere man to restore the glory of God and give himself the grace to do this feat?Which is why when Christ created the church He needed God's blessing. That is why in no other name beside Christ's can save people.
You can't just declare one day that you're gonna build a church and expect it to work without God's express permission.
Also, God is a SPIRIT. And He isn't a liar that He should be man.
It's all in there in the Bible, unlike the "trinity" which you can't find a single verse of.0 -
You are missing my main point. Sin is a contrary to the holiness of God, which is one of His attributes. Satan stole the glory of God thru the sin of man, and man is created to be with God. When man sinned he disconnected the gifts of Grace which is the ONLY thing that connects him to God. Man ALONE cannot RESTORE these GRACE and GLORY, ONLY God can do this.
So what is God to do? Forget man and let him die with Satan in hell? No, right? He had to do something to restore grace so that man can commune with God again and only Him can restore His glory. How Can God do this without violating his attribute of JUSTICE, He had to be a man Himself so that he can redeem man from his sin, from the powers of death, since the wage of sin is death. Can an finite man (sinful or not) ALONE restore the glory of the infinite God? What power does man have to do that? NONE! Man alone does not have the capacity nor the power to restore the glory of God. The only thing that unite him with God, God's grace was thrown out of the window when man sinned, so nothing a man possess can restore God.
I am not missing your point. I just disagree with your conclusion that GOD need to become man.
Remember, God created man in his image and in his glory. When sin entered, man falls short of the glory of God. However, a man without sin is still in the glory and image of God. Jesus is the only man who did not sin. That's why he is called the image of the invisible God.
He is first born of all creation and the only one who can DIE for the sin of his own body, the church.
A perfect sinless man is also in the image of God: thus, God has made him savior. God can do that without himself dying because GOD is immortal.0 -
^ why is jesus sinless?
Because He didn't make any sin? He went through 40~ years of life in third world conditions under severe persecution, but not once did He let temptation to do bad things get the best of Him. He could've easily said "screw this!" and summon a horde of celestial super beings to place the world under His iron fist, but no, that would go against His Father's plan so he instead decided to put His Father's will ahead of His own, even unto a cruel and painful death which, in the time of the Jews, was considered a form of punishment only deserving of animals and had no chance of redemption.
That's some epic level restraint right there.0
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