God: from concept to existence

susmariosep

By God I understand the concept of the creator of the universe: how do I expound that from the concept we can arrive at the existence of God?

Here is how:

1. We examine the concept, which is that God in concept in our mind is the creator of the universe.

2. So we go to the universe to look for God by detecting all the evidence by which we come to all the instances, that there is an agent who brought forth the universe and keeps it in existence and in operation.

3. We are part of the universe, wherefore we start with examining ourselves as evidence of an agent, who ultimately brought us into existence and maintains us in operation.

4. We conclude from evidence that we are in fact brought forth ultimately by an agent into existence, and maintained continuously in existence and in operation until our departure from life.

5. One piece of evidence is any part of our body, for example the nose or the stomach, they exhibit a program of existing and operating with the rest of our body, and that program just like with a computer program requires an agent which brought it forth into existence and keeps it in operation.

6. As we are part of the universe, our body already is evidence of the existence of the agent which brought us into existence and keeps us operating.

7. Not only our body but everything in the universe is kept in existence and in operation by an agent.

8. That agent is what we call God Who in concept is the creator of the universe of which we are part of.

I invite folks here to contribute to this process for arriving at the existence of God the creator of the universe, from concept to existence.

emptypo

not every mind is inclined to examining the particulars and arriving at the state of the universe as a cosmic order.

emptypo

In contrast, the Bible testifies that God is not conceptual but a personal being. Atheists are always failing to see the very simple testimony of the Bible about God.

God is a spirit (do not wish to see Him in flesh)


God is from eternity to eternity (the atheist's question 'who caused God then to exist?' is to ignore the truth that God is uncaused. What is beyond space-time is eternal. This applies to God.



God is unseen



God's qualities can be seen in creation (there is teleology in existence as susmariosep, philosophically elucidated above.)

edzze1716

it is the aquarian age...the time of awakening to monism.

susmariosep

Yes, God exists, but we do have a concept of God, and we can distinguish between the concept of God and the existence of God.

On the other hand there are folks who claim God does not exist, and they care to have conversation with us, us who know that God exists.

My idea is to talk with anyone about how to prove God exists by using the concept of God as a guide to look for His presence in the universe.

And this is the concept of God which all knowers of God hold to be first and foremost what God is, namely, the creator of the universe.

If this concept of God is not first and foremost most important to God and to us knowers of God, then God is not worth any attention from humans at all.

Prikongkong

emptypo wrote: »

In contrast, the Bible testifies that God is not conceptual but a personal being. Atheists are always failing to see the very simple testimony of the Bible about God.

God is a spirit (do not wish to see Him in flesh)


God is from eternity to eternity (the atheist's question 'who caused God then to exist?' is to ignore the truth that God is uncaused. What is beyond space-time is eternal. This applies to God.



God is unseen



God's qualities can be seen in creation (there is teleology in existence as susmariosep, philosophically elucidated above.)

Siningit nanaman ang biblia.

emptypo

Prikongkong wrote: »

Siningit nanaman ang biblia.

nyahahahaha grabiii talaga kabobohan niyo po kuya PRIK

very basic ang sinabi ng Bible about God di ba? why the need to weave philosophical construct for the unphilosophical or philosophically un-inclined people and yet are faithful?


ika nga ni St Augustine..."faith seeking understanding"


Basically, God is revealed in the Bible.

For an astounding and irremediable idiot like you, philosophers may need to use science, logic or reason to prove the existence of God to you. Now, it is not an issue whether you should believe in God or not. No amount of logic will convince you due to your bigotry. grahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

emptypo

susmariosep;70647438]Yes, God exists, but we do have a concept of God, and we can distinguish between the concept of God and the existence of God.

Logically, before affirming that God exists we must first examine the particulars and then we conceptualize. Through this conceptualization, we may conclude that God exists.

The question is,

Will pure reason ever give us a hint of God?

or,


Hypothetically -a person who never knew of religion and the Holy Scriptures is inclined into believing the teleological nature of the universe?

On the other hand there are folks who claim God does not exist, and they care to have conversation with us, us who know that God exists.

True

and,

both sides carry the burden of proof.

If the believer asserts/insists to a non-believer that there is a God , he has (the believer) the burden to prove provided that the non-believer is demanding of proofs.


If the non-believer asserts/insists to a believer that there is no God, he has (the non-believer) the burden to prove provided that the believer is demanding of proofs that God does not exist.


So the real issue here is just ASSERTION. if you do not assert anything, there would be no argumentation, debate or dispute. there is only silence. No talk show. No Kris & Boy (kidding)

My idea is to talk with anyone about how to prove God exists by using the concept of God as a guide to look for His presence in the universe.

We have to undergo examination of the particulars before we can have a concept. This formed concept could be a hint that God exists. There is no absolute philosophical proof that God exists. There is always a logical antinomy..an endless cycle of proofs and dis-proofs.

So, being a Christian or believer, we are just "seeking understanding" (owed from St. Augustine) from our faith. We are trying to reason our faith. However, in the end, it must be faith that stand. If we want to know more of faith i'm talking about here, let us seek in the Bible. No amount of logic will fully contain our faith. BEing purely immersed into philosophy until your death-time just to justify you faith will only lead you into despair.

I just want to quote from the Bible..


I gave you milk to drink, not meat; for you were not able as yet. But neither indeed are you now able; for you are yet carnal.1 Corinthians 3:2 (Douay-Rheims 1899)

If this concept of God is not first and foremost most important to God and to us knowers of God, then God is not worth any attention from humans at all.

The concept derived from the particulars may not wholly satisfy the reasoning or philosophical mind due to antinomy of proofs/disproofs. Only despair prevails if we wholly devote ourselves into pure reasoning of our faith. It maybe of too much philosophy that we can't appreciate God. I love philosophy but i love my faith more.We have to thank that there is an ultimate book that exists - the Bible. The Bible deeply affected billions of people now living and dead. To some, it is the source of inspiration. To some, it is very disturbing. However, the truth is - the Bible affects You regardless of your belief.


Allow me to quote from the Bible again...

Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy, and vain deceit; according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ




and,


1 Corinthians chapter 2


And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not in loftiness of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of Christ.

2 For I judged not myself to know anything among you, but Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not in the persuasive words of human wisdom, but in shewing of the Spirit and power;

5 That your faith might not stand on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among the perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, neither of the princes of this world that come to nought;

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, a wisdom which is hidden, which God ordained before the world, unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew; for if they had known it, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But to us God hath revealed them, by this Spirit. For the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, but the spirit of a man that is in him? So the things also that are of God no man knoweth, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received not the spirit of this world, but the Spirit that is of God; that we may know the things that are given us from God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the learned words of human wisdom; but in the doctrine of the Spirit, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the sensual man perceiveth not these things that are of the Spirit of God; for it is foolishness to him, and he cannot understand, because it is spiritually examined.

15 But the spiritual man judgeth all things; and he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that we may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


(All Bible texts from Douay-Rheims, 1899)

edzze1716

just a question...................
if god is existence what is the use of proving god exist?

emptypo

edzze1716 wrote: »

just a question...................
if god is existence what is the use of proving god exist?

god is existence

may i treat this phrase in two ways...

1.Para sa akin, maaari ang ibig po sabihin niyan ay

*we are in existence because of God.
* There is nothing outside God
* the source of existence is God.
* The totality is God
* All in All is God

take note: hindi ko po ibig sabihin ay agree o disagree ako sa items above. just trying to squeeze out the juice from the phrase bolden and italicized above.

Halos pareparehas lang ito. The idea is spawning due to philosophy.


2. God is Existence

God = Existence

or
p=q;

since p=q

or

q=p

then

p=p or q=q and this signifies nothing. p and q are one and the same absolutely.



or

1+1=2

naging tautological po siya...

Nothing is being proved since existence is simply ALL. Even the act of proving or the mind proving to prove what it can prove is existence/god.

So, it is logically unnecessary to prove "that God exists" if it is already claimed that God is Existence.

What is really needing of proof is a Personal and Transcendent God and not God absolutely equalled Existence.

Prikongkong

Siya rin yung nakaratay sa krus at ngumangawa.

edzze1716

so the question would be what kind of god would you like to prove?
so would it be an anthropological god vs an abstract god?

susmariosep

emptypo wrote: »

god is existence

may i treat this phrase in two ways...

1.Para sa akin, maaari ang ibig po sabihin niyan ay

*we are in existence because of God.
* There is nothing outside God
* the source of existence is God.
* The totality is God
* All in All is God

take note: hindi ko po ibig sabihin ay agree o disagree ako sa items above. just trying to squeeze out the juice from the phrase bolden and italicized above.

Halos pareparehas lang ito. The idea is spawning due to philosophy.

[...]

I like to invite everyone to accept the concept of God as first and foremost the creator of the universe.

If God is not the creator of the universe, then we need not bother talking about Him.

Now, we are not saying that God in that concept of creator of the universe exists or not, but just the same we are going to go forth in the universe to look for an entity that corresponds to the concept of creator of the universe.

It is like we have the concept of a Superman, that is an originally unless I am mistaken comic magazines character, but we decide to really go forth in the universe to look for an entity that corresponds to the concept of the comic character Superman.

And what is the concept of Superman in the comics originally?

It is that of an entity like a human being male that can fight criminals and also come to the help of people in trouble, and succeed because he can fly, and he can knock out any troublemakers, and he can stop a speeding train, etc.

God in concept is the creator of the universe, that makes God a kind of Superman to the nth degree.

So, can we just go forth in the universe to look for Him?

We can start with ourselves, we who are parts of the universe.

Do we see God's presence and action in ourselves?

Juan Polistico

everything the human species cannot comprehend, it attributes to some sort of deity
once it is understood and then replicated, it becomes scientific discovery

it has been since the the human animal started to think above their basic instincts

why are you animals attributing existence to a god when existence is just existence

this is why i loved the latest planet of the apes movie
it is both a psychological and a philosophical movie
it's a film yes but it shows that any species, when threatened, would react almost the same way if their level of intelligence were comparably similar.
if another earth animal evolved earlier than humans, we would be their cats/dogs and we wouldnt even be concerned about these imagined deities but they would be.

i know majority of people cannot and will not accept this because it just means that our lives are meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
And it is true unless you manage to become the great minds or the great destroyers of our race.

susmariosep

Juan Polistico, please tell me if you have a concept of God in your repertory of knowledge; no, I am not requiring you to accept that God exists, but just from your stock of information, tell me if you have a concept of God and what is it.

edzze1716

and what is existence?

edzze1716

in this material universe nothing exist without the cause .

susmariosep

edzze1716 wrote: »

and what is existence?

We can go to the dictionaries or we can talk from our stock knowledge.

And also from our experience of existence in ourselves and also existence in everything outside ourselves.

As I am the one bringing in the terms: God, concept, existence, in the title of my thread, "God, from concept to existence." I have the burden to propose my definition of what is existence, and you can add to it, so that eventually we will come to concurrence on what is existence.

Let me start with my experience of existence.

I am right at this very moment as I write this post experiencing my conscious activity of writing, and also the presence of my fingers typing, and my eyes watching the text coming forth in the screen as I type.

Then also I am aware of the coffee I just drank prior to coming to the computer to work with it.

Do you also experience such things as I do when you are typing on your keyboard to write a message?

How do we put it in words, our experience of existence, but you and I know already what is existence from our experience, I am sure.

Now, as regards things which are not susceptible to our direct experience, like for example, the existence of say, electrons: that is by way of inference from our experience of electricity.

This is our experience of electricity: by touching one of two live electric wires with AC current coursing in them, with one hand -- and with the other hand, the other wire, and the current is of very low voltage, like say, 1.5 volts AC, we feel a pulsating sensation in our hands, that sensation is due to according to electrical engineers the flow of electrical current in one direction and then another direction in a circuit, starting from one terminal and ending in the other terminal, then from this other terminal back to the first terminal, with the current alternating the direction of flow, that makes it a circuit with opposing alternating directions.

So, we know our body to exist, i.e., we ourselves to exist, with our experience of our body by our body, and of things which are not our body or components thereof but accessible to our body, it is also by direct contact experience of their presence and impact on our body.

With things not directly accessible to our body, by inference from experience of the existence of things directly accessible to our body.

Juan Polistico

edzze1716 wrote: »

in this material universe nothing exist without the cause .

yes and following your logic, your deity also needs a cause
yes something cannot come from nothing
but your deity is also something so he cannot also come from nothing
it is a paradoxical question and since a long time ago theists have been complacent that this argument proves the existence of "god" when all it does is make the argument cyclical

susmariosep wrote: »

Juan Polistico, please tell me if you have a concept of God in your repertory of knowledge; no, I am not requiring you to accept that God exists, but just from your stock of information, tell me if you have a concept of God and what is it.

my stock information on "god" is what religion says he is
i used to accept this hook, line and sinker
but now i find it absurd and quite humorous.
and the more i think about it the more convinced i am that every "god" that any religion conceptualize is pure baloney
i still encourage a lot of their teachings about how life should be lived though.

your concept of God is that he is the creator of the universe
My concept of God is that he was created by man to make sense of the universe around him.

Juan Polistico

ANC 24/7
26 mins ·

Final word tonight: "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."

interesting quote by ANC today...
i wouldnt even fathom that their editorial staff would clear something like this for mass consumption..

susmariosep

Juan Polistico wrote: »

[...]

your concept of God is that he is the creator of the universe
My concept of God is that he was created by man to make sense of the universe around him.

Your concept of God is, namely:

"My [your] concept of God is that he was created by man to make sense of the universe around him."

You mean God which according to my concept is the creator of the universe, to you He is something "created by man to make sense of the universe around him."

Let us we two start from that point, your concept of God and my concept of God.

First, shall we agree that the concepts of God from you and from me respectively are in each of our minds?

Second, shall we agree that we can set forth in the universe to look for the being that corresponds to the concept in our mind?

When we agree on the above two statements, then we can proceed to other statements, and we will finally arrive at the concurrence on a mutually agreed on concept of God -- or get into an impasse.

Or, you prefer to ask me to work with you on your proposed statements, instead of me taking the initiative?

That is all right with m, at least we have already set forth our respective concepts of God, namely:

From you: God is something "created by man to make sense of the universe around him."

From me: God is the creator of the universe.

You are free to revise anything of what you have written so far in this thread, and that is totally acceptable to me.

Please, don't feel offended as I say that you are free to revise anything you have written.

It is of course all right with me if you don't want to revise anything you have written so far.

It is by revision that you and I, we both, will get to know things better and with greater certainty.

Now, if we are both certain of every word we have written so far, then there is no need to revise.