COMMUNITY NOTICE: If you are having trouble in your account access, please do send us a message at [email protected] for assistance.

casting lots to identify new pope

SmartDessaSmartDessa Things divide;Christ unites PExer
if the RC rely heavily on tradition, will they consider casting lots to replace the pope who resigned?

Comments

  • TotnakTotnak Theistic Apologist PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    the Papal Conclave in itself is a Catholic Tradition that can be traced back via ancient writings to as early as 251 AD....
  • salermosalermo Lion PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    SmartDessa wrote: »
    if the RC rely heavily on tradition, will they consider casting lots to replace the pope who resigned?

    In the Catholic Church it has a Conclave where the assembly of Cardinals elect a Pope. But I don't think they'll consider your proposal for them to cast lots. And where is that Catholic tradition casting lots? Casting lots for a robe? :D
  • tontontonton Let's stop and talk awhile. PExer
    SmartDessa wrote: »
    if the RC rely heavily on tradition, will they consider casting lots to replace the pope who resigned?

    Ano yan, tanching? :lol:
  • AteoAteo Non est Deus. Fac cum eo. PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    Totnak wrote: »
    the Papal Conclave in itself is a Catholic Tradition that can be traced back via ancient writings to as early as 251 AD....

    Totnak makes it appear that the conclave of cardinals goes back to 251AD. Not true. According to the New Advent, Pope Cornelius was elected in 251 AD such that "bishops, the clergy, and the people all took part in it." It was much more democratic than the current practice because the "people" all took part in it.

    Then soon, Rome fell and the barbarians (Goths) ruled Italy, so the Goth simply put in their candidates as they pleased. Felix III was selected that way in 526 AD, although the New Advent praised Felix as "worthy of his office". Oh yea!

    The Byzantine emperors in Constatinople were worse than the Goths. The New Advent reported, "Vigilius (540) and Pelagius I (553) were forced on the Church at imperial dictation." There were no elections. In cases where there were elections, the emperor's approval was needed before a pope could be enthroned. Emperors have been approving popes until the 1200s.

    My point was that in more ancient time, the bishop of Rome and pope was elected by the people. It was only in 1059 that the RCC decided to only allow an elite, non-biblically defined group called cardinals to be the one electing the pope.

    I say, "let us vote for the pope". By texting, just like the Miss Photogenic in Miss Universe contest. Perhaps, that way, we will finally have our first Filipino pope.
  • TotnakTotnak Theistic Apologist PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    Ateo wrote: »
    Totnak makes it appear that the conclave of cardinals goes back to 251AD. Not true. According to the New Advent, Pope Cornelius was elected in 251 AD such that "bishops, the clergy, and the people all took part in it." It was much more democratic than the current practice because the "people" all took part in it.

    Then soon, Rome fell and the barbarians (Goths) ruled Italy, so the Goth simply put in their candidates as they pleased. Felix III was selected that way in 526 AD, although the New Advent praised Felix as "worthy of his office". Oh yea!

    The Byzantine emperors in Constatinople were worse than the Goths. The New Advent reported, "Vigilius (540) and Pelagius I (553) were forced on the Church at imperial dictation." There were no elections. In cases where there were elections, the emperor's approval was needed before a pope could be enthroned. Emperors have been approving popes until the 1200s.

    My point was that in more ancient time, the bishop of Rome and pope was elected by the people. It was only in 1059 that the RCC decided to only allow an elite, non-biblically defined group called cardinals to be the one electing the pope.

    I say, "let us vote for the pope". By texting, just like the Miss Photogenic in Miss Universe contest. Perhaps, that way, we will finally have our first Filipino pope.

    considering the membership of The Church during the 3rd century and today, I would say that it was a necessary change in the members of the voting population brought about by the growth of Roman faithfuls......

    also, there was a canonical statement from Lucius Ferraris that said that St. Peter himself constituted a senate for the Roman Church, consisting of twenty-four priests and deacons. These were the councillors of the Bishop of Rome and the electors of his successors. This statement is drawn from a canon in the "Corpus Juris Canonici". Although it is still being argued by several canonists and historians, it can't be ignored that the Papal Conclaves had ancient historical basis.....

    from here

    The Tenth Ecumenical Synod (Lateran) in 1139 restricted, however, the entire choice to the cardinals, and in 1179, another Lateran Council under Alexander III made the rule that the pope is to be chosen by a two-thirds majority of the electors who are present.
  • SmartDessaSmartDessa Things divide;Christ unites PExer
    but casting lots were done by Peter himself, and I'm sure it predates the democratic (or republic) way of choosing a pope.
  • TotnakTotnak Theistic Apologist PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    SmartDessa wrote: »
    but casting lots were done by Peter himself, and I'm sure it predates the democratic (or republic) way of choosing a pope.

    yes, Peter did BUT did Peter asked the early Christians to follow what he did on that particular instance?
  • marcus_huntmarcus_hunt Member PExer
    How about they light up candles, one for each cardinal[or candidates], in a controlled environment. Let God blow out all of em but one - to be declared new Pope.

    Or lock em all up in the chapel, no food no water, last one standing will be infallible, sometimes.

    Or or make a huge bonfire at the center of Piazza San Pietro, let them ran through it naked, one after the other. Whoever gets out unscathed gets to say Merry Xmas in different languages in front of a huge crowd.

    Or or...
  • SmartDessaSmartDessa Things divide;Christ unites PExer
    Totnak wrote: »
    yes, Peter did BUT did Peter asked the early Christians to follow what he did on that particular instance?

    I can in the same degree say that Peter did not tell the early christians not to. :rolleyes:

    the fact that he did it, and he being infallible and all, and the result of the lots being crucial for the ministry, we can say that it is indeed practiced by the disciples. But why would they not follow the same and by the record did not do it again? arent they not following the tradition?
  • csco80csco80 Member PExer
    SmartDessa wrote: »
    I can in the same degree say that Peter did not tell the early christians not to. :rolleyes:

    the fact that he did it, and he being infallible and all, and the result of the lots being crucial for the ministry, we can say that it is indeed practiced by the disciples. But why would they not follow the same and by the record did not do it again? arent they not following the tradition?

    There is so much misconception regarding the infallibility of the pope. The pope is not infallible in all issues or whatever he says. The infallibility only comes up when the pope declares a dogma that will forever be taken as TRUTH by the church after being discussed over and over by the bishops and cardinals in conclaves after conclaves as true and genuine.

    Ordinary people are saying the pope is infallible, nope he's as fallible as anyone except when the bishops and cardinals come together and discuss an issue as true and genuine before the pope will pronounce it as a dogma, that is where his infallibility comes in, no other pope can change that belief anymore, it becomes a permanent teaching of the Catholic church.
  • csco80csco80 Member PExer
    So many lies being said about the Catholic church....one of them is the infallibility of the pope. For 2000 years there were only 3 instances when the pope was declared as infallible by the cardinals and bishops when he proclaimed these 3 dogmas as true and genuine after many years of discussions of the same issue over and over before coming to the conclusion that yes, this belief has to be proclaimed as truth by the pope.
  • iskrotumiskrotum Ako si King Kong! PExer
    SmartDessa wrote: »
    but casting lots were done by Peter himself, and I'm sure it predates the democratic (or republic) way of choosing a pope.

    verse please.
  • AteoAteo Non est Deus. Fac cum eo. PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    How about they light up candles, one for each cardinal[or candidates], in a controlled environment. Let God blow out all of em but one - to be declared new Pope.

    Or lock em all up in the chapel, no food no water, last one standing will be infallible, sometimes.

    Or or make a huge bonfire at the center of Piazza San Pietro, let them ran through it naked, one after the other. Whoever gets out unscathed gets to say Merry Xmas in different languages in front of a huge crowd.

    Or or...


    I never thought there are these much clearer way by which the Holy Spirit manifests its Divine Will. Each one of these is fool-proof, er, proof. Each one is better than having a closed room full of politicking cardinals conducting their favorite game of horse-trading and then calling the result as "God's will".

    Of course, if the HS simply writes its choice in bold letters across the skies -- from the edge of the Milky Way to the edge of the Small Magellanic Cloud, then nobody would second guess its will.
  • tontontonton Let's stop and talk awhile. PExer
    Ateo, you should've known by now that God, HS and Jeezas likes to work in stealth and make people really silly trying to guess what they're up to. And if you really want something, you really have to coax them into action, the most common method of doing that is flattery.

    No wonder Gary V. asked this question 30 years ago, "Natutulog ba ang Dios?"

    jesus-sleeping-resting.jpg

    Sleeping_Jesus_by_Drakel.jpg
  • Considering that this is the election of the Vicar of Jesus freaking Christ, you would have thought that the church had opted for something like the Triwizard Cup for its selection process.

    the-magical-devices-of-harry-potter-20090720024615901-000.jpg
  • SmartDessaSmartDessa Things divide;Christ unites PExer
    csco80 wrote: »
    So many lies being said about the Catholic church....one of them is the infallibility of the pope. For 2000 years there were only 3 instances when the pope was declared as infallible by the cardinals and bishops when he proclaimed these 3 dogmas as true and genuine after many years of discussions of the same issue over and over before coming to the conclusion that yes, this belief has to be proclaimed as truth by the pope.

    well that's fine, thanks for that.

    but it doesnt remove the question as to why this practice was not traditionally followed

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file