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What is Christianity without Paul?

tontontonton Let's stop and talk awhile. PExer
We have this never-ending debate between the believers and non-believers about Paul.

Many think that Paul is probably the first anti-Christ; the "apostle" that rendered Jesus' teachings upside down, but enormously successful in propagating his brand of Christianity.

If you could just concentrate on the 4 gospels and take away Paul from the picture, visualize what could happen.

Would it have the same degree of success it had throughout the millennia?
Would we have an entirely different kind of Christianity?
Would Christianity even exist?
Would you have accepted Jeezas Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour?
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Comments

  • TotnakTotnak Theistic Apologist PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    even if you take out all NT manuscripts attributed directly to Paul, I don't believe there would be any major impact with the way we Catholics believe in Christ and His teachings....taking out Paul's epistles and the Acts of the Apostles, you would still have the 4 Gospels, the epistles of James, John and Peter plus the book of Revelations from John....you would still have the bulk of the manuscripts that teaches the same thing with those that were written on the Paulinian epistles.....

    for Catholics, and I'm speaking only on our behalf, we don't rely solely on the written words.....we have a long line of Apostolic Traditions, Patristic writings, the Didache and other proto-evengeliums that is readily available for The Church in case we need to clear out something vague regarding any doctrine of faith or discipline.....

    The Church established by Christ came BEFORE the Bible and not the other way around....thus, I don't believe there would be any difference at all in as far as The Catholic Church is concerned.....
  • SmartDessaSmartDessa Things divide;Christ unites PExer
    if Paul did not exist, tonton will also not exist. :D
  • tontontonton Let's stop and talk awhile. PExer
    Totnak wrote: »
    even if you take out all NT manuscripts attributed directly to Paul, I don't believe there would be any major impact with the way we Catholics believe in Christ and His teachings....taking out Paul's epistles and the Acts of the Apostles, you would still have the 4 Gospels, the epistles of James, John and Peter plus the book of Revelations from John....you would still have the bulk of the manuscripts that teaches the same thing with those that were written on the Paulinian epistles.....

    If so, is Paul a redundant addition?
    for Catholics, and I'm speaking only on our behalf, we don't rely solely on the written words.....we have a long line of Apostolic Traditions, Patristic writings, the Didache and other proto-evengeliums that is readily available for The Church in case we need to clear out something vague regarding any doctrine of faith or discipline.....

    The Church established by Christ came BEFORE the Bible and not the other way around....thus, I don't believe there would be any difference at all in as far as The Catholic Church is concerned.....

    Would you also say your church existed before Paul?
  • TotnakTotnak Theistic Apologist PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    tonton wrote: »
    If so, is Paul a redundant addition?

    redundancy is something that is necessary in witnessing.....

    the Paulinian epistles are necessary redundancies in affirming the validity of the 4 Gospels and the other epistles.....

    Would you also say your church existed before Paul?

    Yes....the Pentecost that was described in the Chapter 1 of the Acts of the Apostles happened first before the calling of Paul which makes the establishment of the Church older than Paul's calling.....
  • AteoAteo Non est Deus. Fac cum eo. PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    Where in the Bible other than Paul's Acts and Letters did it say that we can now eat pork?

    Where in the Bible other in Paul's teachings that we are supposed to junk the OT?

    Where in the Bible other than in Paul's practice that we are supposed to worship on Sundays instead of Saturdays.

    ...

    dozens of other similar questions...
  • TotnakTotnak Theistic Apologist PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    Ateo wrote: »
    Where in the Bible other than Paul's Acts and Letters did it say that we can now eat pork?

    Where in the Bible other in Paul's teachings that we are supposed to junk the OT?

    Where in the Bible other than in Paul's practice that we are supposed to worship on Sundays instead of Saturdays.

    ...

    dozens of other similar questions...

    let's wait over the weekend if there would be any non-Catholics who would be able to answer your questions above....as a Catholic, we have our answers :naughty:

    I'll PM you those answers so that no one could accuse me of pretending to have one.....;)
  • tontontonton Let's stop and talk awhile. PExer
    Did Jesus teach these things to say that Paul is redundant?

    Rom.14
    [9] For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

    Rom.6
    [23] For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    I Corinthians 15
    31: I protest, brethren, by my pride in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die every day!

    Rom.10
    [4] For Christ is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified.

    1Cor.4
    [15] For though you have countless leaders in Christ . . ..
  • TotnakTotnak Theistic Apologist PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    tonton wrote: »
    Did Jesus teach these things to say that Paul is redundant?

    Rom.14
    [9] For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

    Rom.6
    [23] For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    I Corinthians 15
    31: I protest, brethren, by my pride in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die every day!

    Rom.10
    [4] For Christ is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified.

    1Cor.4
    [15] For though you have countless leaders in Christ . . ..

    verbatim as in exactly the same words, you can't find it....but are there verses affirming the same teachings? ABSOLUTELY

    again, I'll wait for those non-Catholics to answer your question first on this thread but I would PM my answers to you for later validations....:naughty:
  • Ateo wrote: »
    Where in the Bible other than Paul's Acts and Letters did it say that we can now eat pork?

    Where in the Bible other in Paul's teachings that we are supposed to junk the OT?

    Where in the Bible other than in Paul's practice that we are supposed to worship on Sundays instead of Saturdays.

    ...

    dozens of other similar questions...

    As a follower of Jesus, here is my answer:

    • Nowhere in the epistles of Paul and even in Acts does it says that we can now eat pork...

    Paul is an apostle to the gentiles and the gentiles eat within their custom (inluding pork) long before Paul brought them the Gospel... Paul's instruction was food and drink is not a requirement for believing in the Gospel (to be save)...

    • Paul does not teach to junk the OT...

    The religious rite within the OT practices for worship and the acceptance of God in the first Covenant by Moses (the TORAH document or "five books") is what the apostle Paul taught as having been annuled and not the Scripture as a whole...

    • Paul does not teach that Sunday is worship day...

    Actually Paul teaches that you can worship any day or even everyday!

    The reason why you will not find any document other than what Paul taught and wrote is because you did not have a clear understanding of what Paul (the written document) is trying to say; actually, you are thinking against Paul, whether christian or non-christian... but having the right perspective will yield to the understanding of other documents within the Bible that taught just like Paul (the document) teaches just see to it that it is within the bounds of the Gospel testimony...
  • tontontonton Let's stop and talk awhile. PExer
    As a follower of Jesus, here is my answer:

    Why do you say that you are a follower of Jesus?

    • Paul does not teach to junk the OT...

    The religious rite within the OT practices for worship and the acceptance of God in the first Covenant by Moses (the TORAH document or "five books") is what the apostle Paul taught as having been annuled and not the Scripture as a whole...

    Support that with verses please.

    Paki reply din po sa pinost ko.
  • SmartDessaSmartDessa Things divide;Christ unites PExer
    Ateo wrote: »
    Where in the Bible other than Paul's Acts and Letters did it say that we can now eat pork?

    Pork was prohibited when the Law established by Moses, so we can assume that God originally allowed man to eat pork.

    the very reason why Jews do not eat pork is because they do not eat like the gentiles do, for Jews, there are only a couple of animals that is considered clean and sanctified.

    but with the advent of the New Testament ministry, the new priesthood, God said to Peter: Slay, and eat! (Acts 10:13)

    Peter was a Jew, and was hesitant to include gentiles in the ministry, but because of this vision, he clearly understood that he should also eat like the gentiles do.
    Where in the Bible other in Paul's teachings that we are supposed to junk the OT?

    both Jesus and Paul refered to the scriptures (OT) in their ministry, so it is not true that Paul junked the OT
    what Paul said that was abolished was the law of ordinances, not the law per se,

    Ephesians 2:15
    Abolishing in His flesh the law of the commandments in ordinances, that He might create the two in Himself into one new man, so making peace,

    and the Lord did that when He healed the sick on Sabbath, ate with gentiles and tax collectors etc.
    Where in the Bible other than in Paul's practice that we are supposed to worship on Sundays instead of Saturdays.

    Sabbath is one of the many ordinances that were abolished and replaced by Christ. He is the "Lord of the Sabbath" (Matt. 12:8)
    he proved that by healing the sick on a sabbath.

    The new sabbath that we are celebrating is the "Lord's day", the Lord's day can be any day, Paul did not give any specific day, it just so happen that sunday was the free day of christianized countries.
  • nikeairviturinnikeairviturin Member PEx Rookie ⭐
    Hi Dessa,

    Would you care to answer the original questions of the TS in post #1? I am just concerned with how non-Catholics will answer them.

    Thank you.
    SmartDessa wrote: »
    Pork was prohibited when the Law established by Moses, so we can assume that God originally allowed man to eat pork.

    the very reason why Jews do not eat pork is because they do not eat like the gentiles do, for Jews, there are only a couple of animals that is considered clean and sanctified.

    but with the advent of the New Testament ministry, the new priesthood, God said to Peter: Slay, and eat! (Acts 10:13)

    Peter was a Jew, and was hesitant to include gentiles in the ministry, but because of this vision, he clearly understood that he should also eat like the gentiles do.



    both Jesus and Paul refered to the scriptures (OT) in their ministry, so it is not true that Paul junked the OT
    what Paul said that was abolished was the law of ordinances, not the law per se,

    Ephesians 2:15
    Abolishing in His flesh the law of the commandments in ordinances, that He might create the two in Himself into one new man, so making peace,

    and the Lord did that when He healed the sick on Sabbath, ate with gentiles and tax collectors etc.



    Sabbath is one of the many ordinances that were abolished and replaced by Christ. He is the "Lord of the Sabbath" (Matt. 12:8)
    he proved that by healing the sick on a sabbath.

    The new sabbath that we are celebrating is the "Lord's day", the Lord's day can be any day, Paul did not give any specific day, it just so happen that sunday was the free day of christianized countries.
  • theventheven Atheist! PEx Rookie ⭐
    tonton wrote: »
    We have this never-ending debate between the believers and non-believers about Paul.

    Many think that Paul is probably the first anti-Christ; the "apostle" that rendered Jesus' teachings upside down, but enormously successful in propagating his brand of Christianity.

    If you could just concentrate on the 4 gospels and take away Paul from the picture, visualize what could happen.

    Would it have the same degree of success it had throughout the millennia?
    Would we have an entirely different kind of Christianity?
    Would Christianity even exist?
    Would you have accepted Jeezas Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour?

    The original (Jewish) Christianity is limited to "tule" (circumcised)....
    if so, then it could have been limited in Israel

    NOTE: Pauline/Roman Catholic Christianity is a "spin-off" from the original Jewish Christianity
  • tonton wrote: »
    Why do you say that you are a follower of Jesus?




    Support that with verses please.

    Paki reply din po sa pinost ko.

    Why am I a follower of Jesus? it is because I am...

    Do you read the Bible tonton?
  • sophionsophion Member PEx Veteran ⭐⭐
    SmartDessa wrote: »
    but with the advent of the New Testament ministry, the new priesthood, God said to Peter: Slay, and eat! (Acts 10:13)

    huy si Paul nagsulat nyan! :lol:
  • sophionsophion Member PEx Veteran ⭐⭐
    some historians credit Paul as the founder of Christianity. Because without him there would only be "The Way", and not "Christianity". And "The Way" would have remained strictly Jewish. There wont be a catholic church.
  • AteoAteo Non est Deus. Fac cum eo. PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    Jesus formed a Jewish cult. He merely wanted to reform Judaism but stay within it. He was one of the many messiahs common at that time.

    Paul was a glib trickster with cosmopolitan exposure. He merely used the Christ myth and made it into a Hellenized chopsuey composed of various beliefs and practices so that it would be more acceptable to the various cultural groups within the Roman Empire.
  • tontontonton Let's stop and talk awhile. PExer
    Why am I a follower of Jesus? it is because I am...

    Do you read the Bible tonton?
    What I don't like about many avid believers is that it takes time to extract straight answers from you.
  • tonton wrote: »
    What I don't like about many avid believers is that it takes time to extract straight answers from you.

    I understand the frustration of people if things are not going in their own way...

    If I would answer you directly, it will create in you more confusion rather than understanding...

    Please answer my question tonton, do you read the Bible?
  • tontontonton Let's stop and talk awhile. PExer
    I understand the frustration of people if things are not going in their own way...

    If I would answer you directly, it will create in you more confusion rather than understanding...

    Please answer my question tonton, do you read the Bible?

    If you insist, yes i do. Now can you get to the topic?

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