Is having an organized religion important?

Marianna_Ulap

For thinkers:

There are a number of reasons on why people involve or join themselves in an organized religion (such as Islam, Christianity, Buddhism). Spiritually, is it a necessity for you?

Does being in a religion educate a person on how to be moral? Can we learn how to be moral without joining an organized religion?

Most people regard religion as something you pick according to your moral or spiritual beliefs. But have you ever considered religion as an option? Is it possible that we can be moral, ethical human beings without religion?

tonton

This has been discussed to death a million times.

Marianna_Ulap

I must have overlooked that in the search engine then. Sorry.

Ateo

Marianna_Ulap wrote: »

Does being in a religion educate a person on how to be moral? Can we learn how to be moral without joining an organized religion?

Most people regard religion as something you pick according to your moral or spiritual beliefs. But have you ever considered religion as an option? Is it possible that we can be moral, ethical human beings without religion?

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

Steven Weinberg, US Nobel Laureate

Marianna_Ulap

Ateo wrote: »

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

Steven Weinberg, US Nobel Laureate

He's got a point. Religion teaches us what's good and what's evil. Or what's good and what's bad.

I'm not very good at giving examples or illustrating my points, but it's worth a shot.

Religion came to be, out of mankind's curiosity. We asked "why". We wanted to know why there are "consequences", we wanted to know why there are sanctions when we violate social norms. For example, in a family, if one family member, a child, rebels against the head of the family, there are sanctions or punishment that the rebel must face. He forms in his mind the idea of bad and good. We develop these concepts to give us meaning or reasons as to why these experiences happen. We are reprimanded by our parents and we come to know what we should or should not do. If the rebel, asks "why", he begins to guess.

Of course, back then, our methods of answering these questions were not yet that sophisticated. Like: "Why is there night and day?" We began to guess and stories most of which are now considered as myths were created, and we believed them to be true. Now we know that night and day are not what we used to believe. We know that "night" is when the earth rotates around its axis in such a way that the sun is out of view, and "day" is when a part of the earth is facing the sun.

Bad/evil and good are just concepts, we formed these terms to name our ideas. Religions were formed from ideas. Ideas are imaginations.

Our questions did not stop there. We still questioned "Why are there different answers to just one question? Which one is true?" Our thinking have evolved and we developed logic. We saw the need to have hypotheses and not just stories. Hypotheses that when proven, will become facts and truths. The need to have proof and evidence. Since we had different stories, we got confused as to which one is the right one. There must be just one single answer.

After asking more and more questions we developed a system. The scientific method was formed. The sciences were developed.

In the same manner, we asked, "Why are we here?" "What is good and what is bad?" That's how God enters the scene(i.e. Allah, Jehovah) . We have different ideas on that, and from there, we established different religions. There's Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and much more. "There must be a Creator who has everything all planned out, who has the answer to all our questions, who made the grand design." And since we have different tribes, there are also different beliefs.

Good and evil, bad and good, right and wrong, are concepts. Concepts are ideas or notions. Ideas are imaginations. They need concrete evidences to be accepted as truths. Religions are based from ideas. Religion gives answers to those questions. Religion teaches us what's good and evil, but take note, good and evil are merely concepts.

To make it more precise, I would like to propose the words, beneficial and not beneficial/harmful.

In my point of view, we need not depend on imagination. From imaginations, we get unfounded beliefs. We need to be grounded on truths and facts. From that, we will gain a sort of satisfaction for our inquisitive minds.



Challenge for anyone: Try to clear your mind of these concepts. And ask yourself questions that were puzzling you. Questions like, "How did we come to be?" Try to answer them without the pressure of your religious beliefs, or without the fear that God is looking at you and watching you.

X-wind

you don't need a religion. you only need Jesus and have a relationship with Him. He is Lord and God! He is the Risen King!

Ateo

X-wind wrote: »

you don't need a religion. you only need Jesus and have a relationship with Him. He is Lord and God! He is the Risen King!

But it was a religion who told you that. It was another religion who compiled the books that are supposed to be telling you that.

If Jesus was the one who directly told you that, then it is not a religion. It is clinically called a hallucination.

rickym

http://bernie.cncfamily.com/k_pathless.htm

"I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organised; nor should any organisation be formed to lead or coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organise a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organise it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallised; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others.

This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountain-top to the valley...."

charcan

organized? okay haha

Marianna_Ulap

rickym wrote: »

http://bernie.cncfamily.com/k_pathless.htm

"I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organised; nor should any organisation be formed to lead or coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organise a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organise it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallised; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others.

This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountain-top to the valley...."

I agree 100%. Truth has always been here. We try to make sense of it, and we're free to do so, but the beauty of it will be made common if we claim to have discovered it and even enforce it upon others. Merely appreciating its beauty is enough for me.

ebragais

sabi ko nga sa ibang thread hindi pweding sumunod ang tamang religion sa tao ang tao dapat ang sumunod.

lahat ng Linikha ay may pag kukulang dahil yon ang purpose ng Taga palikha para makilala, sumunod, sumamba sa nag IIsang Tagapaglikha, dahil kapag tayo ay linikhang walang pangangailangan ano pa ang saysay ng paguusapan natin kung walang pagsaliksik sa kaalaman, syempre dahil sa ang Taga paglikaha ay napakamahabagin, maawain, mapagpala binigyan parin tayo ng Tamang Guidance na kailangang sundin, yon ang hanapin natin...

banimalek

I agreed bro

Sa atin kasi dapat sumunod sa kautusan at hindi ang sinusunod ay kung ano ang nais natin mangyari.

Kaya nga ang 5 Pillar of Islam ay nagkakasundo ang lahat ng Muslim tungkol dito kasi organisado ang aral natin.

Marianna_Ulap

ebragais wrote: »

sabi ko nga sa ibang thread hindi pweding sumunod ang tamang religion sa tao ang tao dapat ang sumunod.

lahat ng Linikha ay may pag kukulang dahil yon ang purpose ng Taga palikha para makilala, sumunod, sumamba sa nag IIsang Tagapaglikha, dahil kapag tayo ay linikhang walang pangangailangan ano pa ang saysay ng paguusapan natin kung walang pagsaliksik sa kaalaman, syempre dahil sa ang Taga paglikaha ay napakamahabagin, maawain, mapagpala binigyan parin tayo ng Tamang Guidance na kailangang sundin, yon ang hanapin natin...

Bakit hindi pwede?

Ang pagkalikha sa tao ay hindi pa rin pinapaniwalaang totoo ng maraming tao dahil may kanya kanya silang paniniwala kung paano tayo "naging" tao na namumuhay sa mundong ito. Iyong pagkukulang natin ay isa ring paniniwala ng mga Kristiyano para masagot ang tanong "Bakit kailangan natin ng Diyos?" Ang mga pangangailangan natin ay matutupad kahit walang naniniwala sa Diyos na tinutukoy sa bibliya. Tayo ang gumawa ng relihiyon. Kahit si Hesus mismo ay nagsabing ang tunay na relihiyon ay ang:

James 1:27
Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

banimalek

Matanong lang kita, bakit may kautusan pang ipinadala ang Diyos na dapat sundin kung kagustuhan lang pala ng tao ang masusunod.

Marianna_Ulap

banimalek wrote: »

Matanong lang kita, bakit may kautusan pang ipinadala ang Diyos na dapat sundin kung kagustuhan lang pala ng tao ang masusunod.

Hindi ba posible na nagmula yan sa isipan ng tao sa dahilang gumawa tayo ng isang imahe ng Diyos na nakakaalam sa lahat ng bagay. Nakakaalam ng lahat ng sagot na kaya nating tanungin.

ebragais

Marianna_Ulap wrote: »

Bakit hindi pwede?

Ang pagkalikha sa tao ay hindi pa rin pinapaniwalaang totoo ng maraming tao dahil may kanya kanya silang paniniwala kung paano tayo "naging" tao na namumuhay sa mundong ito. Iyong pagkukulang natin ay isa ring paniniwala ng mga Kristiyano para masagot ang tanong "Bakit kailangan natin ng Diyos?" Ang mga pangangailangan natin ay matutupad kahit walang naniniwala sa Diyos na tinutukoy sa bibliya. Tayo ang gumawa ng relihiyon. Kahit si Hesus mismo ay nagsabing ang tunay na relihiyon ay ang:

James 1:27
Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

ilagay natin sa tagalog para mas maintinidhan natin.

Jas 1:27

(KJV) Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

(KJV+) PureG2513 religionG2356 andG2532 undefiledG283 beforeG3844 GodG2316 andG2532 the FatherG3962 isG2076 this,G3778 To visitG1980 the fatherlessG3737 andG2532 widowsG5503 inG1722 theirG846 affliction,G2347 and to keepG5083 himselfG1438 unspottedG784 fromG575 theG3588 world.G2889

(TAB) Ang dalisay na relihion at walang dungis sa harapan ng ating Dios at Ama ay ito, dalawin ang mga ulila at mga babaing bao sa kanilang kapighatian, at pagingatang walang dungis ang kaniyang sarili sa sanglibutan.

ngayon kapatid ang tinutukoy dito yong pagpapahalaga sa mga taong ulila at widows na kalingan natin tulungan 1400 yrs walang ibang gumawa nito sa pagpapahalaga kundi ang Islam ang Reliyiyon ng lahat ng Propeta at sa Huling Propeta na si Muhammad saws.

ito rin ang hinahanp nyong organisadong relihiyon:

pang 4 sa mga haligi ng Islam Ang Zakah (Itinakdang Taunang Kawanggawa)
Ang Zakah ay hindi lamang boluntaryong pagbibigay sa mga nangangailangan kundi isang obligasyong itinakda ng Allah. Ito ay hindi lamang naglalayon ng tulong pagkawanggawa, limos o kabutihan kundi isang paraan ng paglilinis sa mga kinita o kabuhayan. Samakatuwid ito ay ang paghihiwalay ng bahagi ng iyong kabuhayan para ipamahagi sa ibang mga Muslim na nangangailangan. Ito ay naglalayong isubi ang bahagi ng iyong kabuhayan na di matatawag na iyo sapagkat iyon ay nararapat na ipamahagi sa mga mahihirap at nangangailangan, sa mga ulila at balo, sa mga napipiit dahil sa kawalan ng pangbayad, sa mga institusyong pang-Muslim, mga mag-aaral na Muslim na walang salaping panustos at gayundin naman sa pagpapalaganap ng Islam. Ang Zakah ay ibinibigay ng hindi bababa sa dalawa at kalahating bahagdan (2.5%) sa bawat taon salig sa linis na kita o halaga ng mga ari-arian. Ang Zakah ay isang obligasyong dapat tuparin ng sinumang Muslim sapagkat iyon ay itinakda ng Allah at ang bawat Muslim ay tuwirang may pananagutan sa Kanya kung hindi niya magampanan ito. Ngunit sa mga Muslim na walang masasabing ipon o kabuhayan, ang pagbibigay ng Zakah ay hindi obligasyon.
Ang Zakah ay isang uri ng pagkakapatirang walang makakapantay sa ibang relihiyon. Ito ay batay sa katapatan ng isang indibidwal na tao. Sapagkat ang Zakah ay obligasyon sa bawat taon, nararapat na ang isang Muslim ay maghalaga ng kanyang naipon o mga ari-arian. Ang tapat na Muslim ay humahanap ng kanyang mapagbibigyan, gayon din naman siya ay nagkukusang pumunta sa anumang tanggapan o Kagawaran ng Zakah sa kanyang lugar upang paglagakan nito. Anupa’t sa Zakah, ang pagkakaroon ng tagapagbayad at kolektor ay walang puwang sapagkat malaya ang isang Muslim na ipatupad ang Zakah sa kanyang sarili at humanap ng sa kanyang palagay ay nangangailangan ng tulong maging siya ay kamag-anak, kaibigan o kapitbahay. Kung sa palagay niya ay walang kuwalipikadong tao na tumanggap ng Zakah sa kanyang lugar, mailalagak niya ang kanyang Zakah sa anumang kagawaran o tanggapan ng Zakah na pinakamalapit sa kanyang lugar. Ang pagbibigay ng Zakah ay lagi nang binabanggit sa Qur’an kapag ang pagdarasal ay ipinag-uutos. Winika ng Allah sa Qur’an:

“At maging matimtiman sa inyong pagdalangin; at magkaloob ng Zakah, at iyuko ninyo ang inyong ulo kasama ng mga nagsisipanikluhod (sa pagsamba)”. [Qur’an, 2:43]

“At magsipagtatag ng palagiang pagdarasal at magbayad ng Zakah; at sumampalataya sa Allah at sa Huling Araw; hindi magtatagal, sa kanila ay igagawad Namin ang malaking pabuya.” [Qur’an, 4:162]

rikombyo

Marianna_Ulap wrote: »

For thinkers:

There are a number of reasons on why people involve or join themselves in an organized religion (such as Islam, Christianity, Buddhism). Spiritually, is it a necessity for you?

It's human nature to see organization in his environment-- in fact, that's one of the theories on the origins of religion. Given that, I believe it's not necessary for one to espouse an "organized religion"-- one need only be satisfied with how he justifies his experiences of the world, i.e. atheism as a 'religion'. I merely chose a "philosophy" that fits my own personal worldview, because I admit to myself that I do not have all the answers I want, and my particular religion involves itself in asking those same questions in a way I can relate.

Does being in a religion educate a person on how to be moral? Can we learn how to be moral without joining an organized religion?

Both yes, I think. In its ideal sense, the main thrust of religion is to inculcate relevant values to its believers. However, one does not need to be a part of one specific religion to learn those values. You can appreciate a Muslim's purity, a Christian's faith, even a Luciferian's freedom, and still think of yourself separate from them.

...have you ever considered religion as an option? Is it possible that we can be moral, ethical human beings without religion?

Religion, despite what people may often forget, is ALWAYS an option. You can never be forced to join a religion, nor can anyone declare irrefutably that theirs is the One True Religion. Personally, I believe one should choose their 'faith' when they come to that crossroads, (as opposed to just going with what they're born with) as only then could they begin to fully understand the concept of religion-- if it so happens that your religion is "no religion" then, so be it.

On a trip to Griddhraj Parvat, a student was surprised to find his master tearing up the map which would have guided them. Questioned, the master replied "One does not know the path, until one has walked it."

[crouching-tiger-disappearing-spoiler]The two of them died later, lost in the Gobi Desert. j/k [/crouching-tiger-disappearing-spoiler]

Can we be moral, ethical beings without religion? Yes.

A student once asked his master, 'What is the nature of Buddha?'

'It is the universal rain that showers all.'

Ateo

Rikombyo, religion is not an option. When religion enters a society, it seeks to dominate that society and everbody's behavior in it, whether you want to opt out or not. As an example, try buying pork in Saudi or pass an RH bill in Pinas. You will quickly find out that religion is sitting on your back.

rikombyo

Ateo, you're talking about society, and yes, religion is a function of society. But I'd been talking about it on a personal level.

Given your example say then, that I was a Catholic working in Saudi Arabia, and assuming that I'd made the personal choice to be a Catholic. It's still against the norms of Arabic society for me to eat pork, but in no way could they ever force me to pray in a masjid or convert to Islam. (One could argue too, that there's nothing in the Catholic religion that requires me to eat pork.)

Say, I was a Catholic in the Philippines, and a referendum was conducted to pass the RH Bill. I'd still vote to pass it based on my personal beliefs --it's my choice. Do I stop being a Catholic because I did? Unless the Philippine Catholic Church does something illegal to find out how their flock has voted individually and excommunicates those who voted for it, I'd say not.

I could even be excommunicated and still subscribe to the Catholic faith, although it'd be in a diminished capacity as I'd have no access to the formal rites which some say is an intrinsic part of any religion.

That all said, the point is this: My faith and how I live it is my choice. Laws and societal norms are a whole other thing.

Ateo

Rikombyo, even at a personal level, religion is still insidiously harmful. It creates guilt and makes one feel ***** with all the bs about being a fallen being and worthless, etc. Even in very personal decisions like fornication and *****, religion has to interfere. It even seeks to know one's inner thoughts and desires (like in the confessional, for example, or through the Evangelical testimonial). True, deep down you can still opt to reject the religious teachings but at great expense to your peace of mind. Your mind could suffer cognitive dissonance (like when you are having a healthy sexual relationship with your partner and your religion drills down in your mind the thought that it is sinful).

Religion controls society (and it can be defeated at that level, like in this RH debate). More dangerously, it can control the mind. And in that situation, we pity the weak-minded and the meek.

rikombyo

@Ateo: It's not that I'm pointing fingers, but it's entirely possible that you've been encountering the wrong kinds of "religion".

I am, for all intents and purposes, a "Buddhist" (a Zaoist actually. not a Taoist, mind you), and my faith shares a tenet with Luciferianism/Satanism that could be summarized in one line: "You're free to do shiet you're willing to take shiet for." That is, everything is allowed (yes, you can even murder and *****, if you swing that way) IF you are willing to live with (or die for) the earthly consequences.

Your negative connotations of religion stem from a view of religious fundamentalism/absolutism, and value rigorism. sadly, that shouldn't be the case (although it's what's happening to the Philippines, as far as I can see). I've a belief that all religions, in their ideal sense, should not be a hindrance to their followers, but rather springboards through which they might gain enlightenment.