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philippine schools

maybe its because i'm new here,but i don't see the point of discussing which philippine schoolis the best. we stink! all our schools. only AIM is world class. UP, Ateneo, and all those other schools stink! do you know that we can't even compete with schools from malaysia, thailand, singapore? how well do philippine schools perform contrasted to our ASEAN neighbors? aaargh! let's not even discuss it. UP is miles away from the competition but it too stinks! when we talk of who's the best in the philippines its like formula 1 fans talking who's better arrows, minardi, sauber or some other loser teams. wake up people! smell the grass. there is no grass. its just mud!

Comments

  • mac_bolan00mac_bolan00 PEx Veteran ⭐⭐
    by golly, you're right! and your grammar proves it!
  • For the moment, we may stink, but in the NEAR FUTURE, Philippine Education shall BOOST high!!!

    UP may be below other universities in other Asian Countries, but IT SURELY HAS THE GREAT POTENTIAL TO BE AT PAR with OTHER UNIVERSITIES in Asia.

    Konting maneuvering lang sa UP, and a WORLD-CLASS University shall be right in the Philippines.

    We need not to go to other countries.

    Malaki ang potential ng UP kaunti na lang direksyon.

    Other universities will take time, a LONG time.
  • Haven't you notice that UP's ranking goes down every year on the Asiaweek survey. Nuff said about this.
  • I beg to differ -- the best graduates of Philippine universities compete very well with their peers from other countries in graduate level programs and professional endeavors. After all, what does it mean for our universities to "stink"? Is it because of our "poor performance" in rankings like the ones published by Asiaweek? I'm not sure if the problem is idiosyncratic, i.e., our universities really stink or systemic, i.e., how can our universities compete with universities from Hong Kong, Japan or Taiwan when our domestic macroeconomic/political conditions still classify us among the developing (versus developed/newly industrialized) countries?

    Philippine universities do NOT have the money, funding sources and infrastructure to compete with schools from "first world" countries! A more valid ranking mechanism should evaluate universities based on per capita income, for example. So compare Philippine universities with universities in countries that have per capita incomes of between USD800 to USD1,200 (Philippine per capita income in 1998 was USD1,050). The only Asian countries that fit the bill are Papua New Guinea and Sri Lanka. The next one on the list (c/o the World Bank, 1998 figures) is Thailand, with USD2,160 -- more than DOUBLE the Philippines' per capita income. We can make the regression specifications even tighter, but this isn't a course in statistics. This is basic logic, comparing apples to apples and not apples to oranges.

    So how do you think Philippine universities compare relative to universities from Papua New Guinea or Sri Lanka?

    This is not an "excuse," but a realistic view of the kind of constraints the Philippine educational system faces in terms of trying to improve the quality of schooling it delivers. Do you want the kind of "quality education" that "top schools" provide? Let's push the envelope to the hilt then: Do you want a Wharton, Harvard or Stanford kind of education? Then charge the kind of tuition fees these institutions need to charge in order to maintain the level of quality they offer! The latest figures show College tuition fees at these US institutions hovering at USD28,000 per year -- that's over a million Philippine pesos per year. Tell me how many Filipino families can afford that kind of tuition.

    And then answer me this: Despite these economic constraints, how come top graduates of Philippine universities can still end up topping their classes in prestigious US institutions like Wharton, Harvard and Stanford? If our universities "really do stink," how come we can place our top graduates really well in the best institutions around the world?

    I would be very careful about the kind of sweeping generalizations that one is prone to make in discussion boards like this.
  • Philippine universities do NOT have the money, funding sources and infrastructure to compete with schools from "first world" countries! A more valid ranking mechanism should evaluate universities based on per capita income, for example.

    So you agree that we CANNOT compete with "first world" countries because of economic factors.

    Our "third world" universities still can compete though if we really want it to. Maybe with government assistance.

    IT universities in India for example are very reputable. Go to the Asiaweek survey in their "best technology schools" category. You will find a lot of schools from India ranked in the top 10.

    And then answer me this: Despite these economic constraints, how come top graduates of Philippine universities can still end up topping their classes in prestigious US institutions like Wharton, Harvard and Stanford? If our universities "really do stink," how come we can place our top graduates really well in the best institutions around the world?

    Does it make our universities competitive with prestigious US institutions just because a handful made it there?

    I think the issue here is that if our schools can actually compete with those prestigious institions that you mentioned.

    You already answered the question. Due to economic factors... NO
  • But of course Philippine schools in general cannot compete with schools from richer countries! Can you imagine saying that "UP is better than Harvard"? It's like saying that your "good Indian schools for IT" are better than MIT or Stanford's computer science/information technology departments. Do you dare make that statement?

    The question of comparing Philippine schools to schools from other countries is flawed to begin with, precisely because you are comparing apples to oranges! Mali ang tanong! Why do you think more limited surveys, like those comparing US business schools to one another, are a bit more valid than cross-country comparisons (although these surveys too have their own shortcomings)? Precisely because there are many omitted variables that you fail to control in cross-country comparisons! Why do you think there is NO survey in the US that attempts to compare universities AS A WHOLE across the country? Why are all the surveys LIMITED to comparing specific program offerings (MBAs, graduate and professional degrees in medicine, etc., quality of undergraduate education, etc.), versus simply using a "kitchen sink type regression" and comparing, say, EVERYTHING about Stanford University in Palo Alto, CA to EVERYTHING about Northwestern University in Evanston, IL?

    But that was a good response, francisd! Because now we're all finally hinting at the root of the problem. Will you help us all solve it?

    Just how exactly will you gain more of this "maybe" that you mentioned above -- "government support" -- for education? Why don't you outline for us all the exact, practical steps you will take to get more support for Philippine schools?

    In fact, why limit yourself to government support? Let's pretend you're the President of the Philippines ("powers of the Chief Executive!"), and had the power to get the unified support of all the interest groups in the country (do you see why you're in trouble even from this premise alone?). Why don't you tell us how the Philippines as a country ought to formulate its educational policy to really bring its schools up to par with "the competition"? :)

    And by the way, should we be focusing on university-level education, or do you think we should focus on primary and secondary education in the Philippines?

    No potshots, please -- just clear, practical proposals. And then tell us if it's as easy as writing down a line saying "our schools all stink" or that we can make things better, "maybe with government support." Let's go beyond ragging about situations in forums like these and actually look at the deeper determinants/causes of these situations, and what we can do to solve/improve the issue at hand.

    Because in the end, primitiverebel is right in one very important sense: It IS absolutely trivial and useless to argue endlessly about "which scbool is better." We should be focusing more on what we can actually do to make things better, both as individuals and as fellow Filipinos, given our own unique personal and professional capacities and contributions! And the main reason why I posed the question of why we see Filipinos doing well in "competitive world-class institutions" is not to establish that Philippine schools are good, but that Filipino INDIVIDUALS DO have the capacity to shine and run with the "best of the best" -- and that places an even bigger responsibility on each of us to ask ourselves why the hell our country isn't working as well as it SHOULD be working!

    It's not education, boys and girls, and certainly not about "latent Filipino ability," whether good (masinop/masipag/matalino nga ba tayo?) or bad (Juan Tamad nga ba?) -- it's political economy. Interest groups, property rights, incentives and opportunities. Think about it.

    [Edited by victory on 04-01-2001 at 08:16 AM]
  • As usual, a very sensible post from Victory!

    Ewan ko nga ba. Even a cursory look at the questions in this particular forum would tell us many pinoys are so hung up on "what's the best this and what's the best that" and "who's the best in this and who's the best in that". :D

    Peace, guys!
  • Originally posted by victory
    It's like saying that your "good Indian schools for IT" are better than MIT or Stanford's computer science/information technology departments. Do you dare make that statement?

    I cannot say they are better. What I can say is that they have "World Class" IT schools very well recognized in Silicon Valley.
    The question of comparing Philippine schools to schools from other countries is flawed to begin with, precisely because you are comparing apples to oranges! Mali ang tanong!

    I don't think it is flawed. Can't we can compare a BMW with a Honda Civic just because we already know off the bat that a BMW is in a different class? Can't we compare their price difference? Comfort? etc?

    Why do you think more limited surveys, like those comparing US business schools to one another, are a bit more valid than cross-country comparisons (although these surveys too have their own shortcomings)? Precisely because there are many omitted variables that you fail to control in cross-country comparisons! Why do you think there is NO survey in the US that attempts to compare universities AS A WHOLE across the country?

    Are you sure about this? U.S News just recently published an overall ranking. Public and Private ofALL US Universities. Princeton is ranked #1 overall.
    But that was a good response, francisd! Because now we're all finally hinting at the root of the problem. Will you help us all solve it?

    Just how exactly will you gain more of this "maybe" that you mentioned above -- "government support" -- for education? Why don't you outline for us all the exact, practical steps you will take to get more support for Philippine schools?

    Increasing the budget for schools is a good start. Too bad Victory. Pretending I'm the "President" is a total waste of my time.
    We should be focusing more on what we can actually do to make things better, both as individuals and as fellow Filipinos, given our own unique personal and professional capacities and contributions!

    Very good point.

    Going back to the thread topic, I don't think that Philippine Universities "stinks". We are producing high-quality graduates. Are we producing graduates at par with graduates of Stanford or Berkeley? I don't know.

    Just because we are a "third world" country though is not an excuse for not comparing.

    [Edited by francisd on 04-01-2001 at 03:47 PM]
  • Yes, francisd -- I am quite sure about my statement. In fact, why don't you plumb a bit deeper into this US News source that you trust so profoundly and quote so haphazardly:

    http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/corank.htm

    Did it say that Princeton was the number 1 university OVERALL, or did it say that Princeton's UNDERGRADUATE program was ranked the best among other US schools? Do you know the difference between "college rankings" and "graduate school rankings"? Have you studied the statistical methodology behind these "popular rankings," and do you know where it's correct and where it's flawed?

    For example, what is Princeton's rank when it comes to business schools? :)

    "Increasing the budget" for schools is a totally useless proposition in the real world. Will you snap your finger magically and suddenly get the money to "increase the budget"? Is your "increase in budget" unlimited, and if it's not, how would you allocate it? To public schools? To primary and secondary education? To educating College students who rationally decide to leave the country for greener pastures in richer countries, because of the simple economic fact that there is no demand for their quality of labor in the Philippines, therefore depressing the kind of wages they can earn given their level of education?

    Where do you get the money, or perhaps the more important question is FROM WHOM do you take the money? Which interest group will you combat to "gain this additional support for schools?" You say that the whole President exercise is a waste of your time. But guess what? Your proposals are simplistic and totally unworkable and you tried to avoid the difficult issue of trying to improve what can be improved in Philippine education given real-world constraints! Are "Philippine schools" the real problem or are there deeper problems we ought to fix before we even criticize Philippine schools? Do you know anything about agriculture and land reform in the Philippines? Why don't you start there?

    Certainly hold our schools to a higher standard, but don't criticize the schools if you yourself can't come up with workable proposals as to how to improve the situation.
  • Why do you think there is NO survey in the US that attempts to compare universities AS A WHOLE across the country?

    Ohhh... Ok. So what you are saying in your quote is for BOTH graduate and undergraduate survey?

    Sheeshhh... Wow! BIG DEAL!


    You have issues with criticisms? I think it's very healthy.
    Sure, we can blame the economy, agriculture, the government for the problems in Philippine education. This is nothing new.

    Again, this is not an excuse not to compare Philippine schools with other schools abroad. Hey while you're at it, why don't you go and propose to UP, Ateneo and others not to join the Asiaweek survey.

    BTW, Who will determine "workable" proposals?

    Nuff said about this thread topic.

    [Edited by francisd on 04-02-2001 at 12:38 PM]
  • Hello, francisd! No issues about criticism at all -- I think it's quite healthy. But I am against criticism with no workable proposal as to what to do to improve the situation.

    And I'm glad you read the previous posts more carefully. Yes, I think it IS a big deal to know exactly what surveys can or cannot say. Or else you'll come to the wrong conclusions, right?

    So what is the answer? Does US News claim that Princeton is the "#1 University overall" as you suggested above?

    I assure you I am more than qualified to judge whether your proposals are workable or not. I'm sure many other PExers have the brains, realism and compassion about the country to make these kinds of judgments, too. Care to actually think about what to do instead of posting smarty potshots? :) Why don't you tell us all what you plan to do about your criticisms of Philippine education?

    Would you recommend that Ateneo, UP and La Salle NOT join the Asiaweek survey? Is that the best you can do? I'll tell you right now that's not very workable, nor desirable. Or was that just a petty shot at insulting what I've tried to say above, instead of an honest, intelligent attempt at trying to answer the question I posed?
  • This reply is mostly off topic. It addresses the survey on US Universities issue.

    I was going to also point out the US News & World Report Rankings. But I saw that he said "universities AS A WHOLE" and that "all the surveys LIMITED to comparing specific program offerings". Indeed, the US News & World Report give different rankings for Undergraduate Schools, Business, Law, Nursing, & Medicine. However many point out & the editors of USN&WR admit that the rankings are flawed and that Ranking Princeton #1 does not necessarily mean that everyone going to Princeton gets the best undergrad education possible in the states.

    Each school has its strengths and what matters is that you find that school THAT IS RIGHT FOR YOU. Obviously you will do best where you are the most comfortable. Ranking Universities as a whole would not be beneficial to a student looking for a program that will educate & train him or her for his or her future.

    Below I have listed articles that point out the flaws in the US News & World Report Rankings.

    http://www.case.org/flshfils/er1.htm
    http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/db/articles.asp?ID=1183
    http://www.aals.org/validity.html
  • Thanks for these sources, Raf378. If you read my previous posts carefully you'll find that we are in perfect agreement when it comes to taking surveys with a grain of salt. Even the most careful statistical/econometric specifications is subject to some bias or error, and that's why I'm spending lots of time clarifying just what exactly can and cannot be determined from these surveys.

    For a more careful exposition of business school rankings, for example, see Tracy and Waldfogel (National Bureau of Economic Research), who bring up the main concerns regarding the shortcomings of traditional ranking survey methods:

    http://papers.nber.org/papers/W4609

    Note that even these very good applied econometricians (and yes, they are very good -- I've worked with Waldfogel personally) admit that their own methodology has shortcomings. So again, the main point of my posts is for us to take surveys with a grain of salt before coming up with sweeping generalizations of "what's the best" and "what stinks."

    And you're absolutely right when you say that the key thing is to find the school that is right for one's own personal and professional development needs. For example, I'm not sure whether any popular US survey extols the virtues of Boston College (Raf378, I'm sure you have an opinion about this school :)), but BC is a great school for business, for example (particularly for folks interested in organizational behavior). One of my mentors completed his MBA at BC and graduated class valedictorian (yes, he is Filipino and he did go to one of our "stinky" schools for College), just absolutely loving the formative experience and training he received from BC. He had friends who enrolled in the economics program in the University of Chicago (very highly rated by any survey) and just floundered because the competitive culture wasn't right for their needs.

    So in the end, as Raf378 has emphasized, the key is to find the school that is BEST FOR YOUR NEEDS, and not simply look for "the best school" -- since who can define what school is "the best," let alone "the best in everything"? The surveys do have some use as a rough guide, but we should not accept their rankings lock, stock and barrel without examining critically just what exactly the surveys can and/or cannot say. And I am totally against sweeping generalizations and criticisms that provide no workable solutions as to how the situation might be improved.
  • Victory,

    Apologies for my last post. Very inappropriate. I'm in the middle of something right now(reviewing for a cert exam) but I will be back to post my reply when I get a chance.

    Peace!
  • it's been a while! it's so hard when you don't have the resources attendant to being employed in some progressive, tech-reliant business entities. i have to line up in an internet cafe just to post my reply. in any case, thanks guys for your posts. hey, man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes out from man's mouth. words have the power to move us; to move our minds; to move our beings. the point i was trying to made when i wrote this topic about "philippine schools" is to show that focusing Foucault's "gaze" on ourselves is a petty enterprise. it smacks of malcontent. a loser is one who always focuses on himself. it means he has little else to do. our school(s) should not compare itself with others. it must look internally only for introspection, to look at the possible points for further development. that is the purpose of analysis. when we look at ourselves ---our accomplishments--- so we can "feel better," we are losers. so guys, stop saying your school is "good," "better," or "the best." lalo lang kayo nagmumukhang talunan. let others say you are "good," "better" or "the best." and stop whining why we are like this or like that. the analysis of our school's malaise should not result to self-pity but rather it should push us to act individually or collectively. have a nice life.
  • UP was considered to be world-class before...masyado
    lang na-pulitika over the years...plus lack of budget
    provided by the govt...just look at the state of
    classrooms in there...

    UP has very big potentials indeed....it can reclaim
    its lost glory or whatever...it's quite sad that in
    surveys done by asiaweek...nauunahan na tayo ng uni-
    versities from malaysia, indonesia, etc...eh dati
    sila ang below sa atin...

    as for grad school....i do believe AIM is overrated.
    it's UP, DLSU, ADMU pa ren...for instance ang law..
    grad school yan...may ganun ba ang AIM? and med pro-
    per...grad school din yan....meron ba sila nun?

    in a way UP is still world-class pa ren....in my
    experience there....i saw students from japan, korea,
    bangladesh, pakistan, germany, USA, spain, etc..
    mura din kasi ang education dito compared sa ibang
    countries...

    and anyway...ano ba ang batayan ng survey ng asia-
    week? i feel as if my hocus-pocus din dyan....may
    politics....maybe tama nga si dr. nemenzo ng UP...
    ndi dapat agad tanggapin ang results ng asiaweek
    survey.
  • As you can no doubt read from the posts I've submitted earlier in this thread, I agree with several of your points, satellite. But you must sharpen some of your inquiries and dig a bit deeper before you even ask some questions, just so you solve some of the puzzles for yourself. For example:

    1. "AIM is overrated -- meron ba silang law school or med school?" Satellite -- AIM stands for "Asian Institute of Management." Is it any surprise that they offer graduate level courses focusing on management and not on law and medicine?

    Of course you brought up a good insight here -- can AIM therefore be compared with UP, La Salle and Ateneo straight out, or should the relevant comparison focus on their graduate programs in management?

    But then dig deeper: AIM's program itself was formed via a consortium between La Salle and Ateneo. In fact, an implicit contract states that neither founding schools' graduate management programs should try to upstage AIM as the premier management institution in the Philippines. So are you then surprised that La Salle and Ateneo's graduate management programs "aren't as good" as AIM's?

    2. You're absolutely right when you say that the Asiaweek survey shouldn't be taken at face value. Would you like to delve deeper what might constitute this "hocus pocus" that casts some doubt in your mind? Even if there's "something strange" going on with the Asiaweek survey, can it offer something valuable for Philippine educators -- or should we just pooh-pooh the whole thing and not have Philippine universities join the survey "because it's completely invalid?" Why don't you see for yourself? Check out the Asiaweek survey methodology posted online at:

    http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/features/universities2000/index.html

    All of this is public information. Dig a bit deeper and you may solve your own questions by yourself. Will the answers you find offer any solace? Will the answers you find offer some concrete solution towards helping improve Philippine schools? Is it even worth your time "digging deeper and finding answers to questions" about this topic, or would you rather focus on something else? Do you really care that deeply about Philippine schools, enough so to spend time acquiring information "why Malaysian and Thai schools have overtaken us, even though they were below us before?"

    I leave that up to you.
  • Originally posted by francisd
    Haven't you notice that UP's ranking goes down every year on the Asiaweek survey. Nuff said about this.

    i would just like to add that asiaweek's survey is so undependable. for one thing, not all schools join this survey and they exclude the top schools from the previous years, i.e. university of tokyo (im not sure about this). and some factors in computing the total raw grade is kind of weird, if you read the fine print at the bottom of the charts... if i remember it correctly, the bandwidth of the school's internet was given 5-10%, the reason for which is totally unclear to me. some other factors, such as student selectivity and faculty research output, are also not as important for me as the other "unquantifiable" data, such as the number of successful graduates, etc. they should have included the percentage of students who find jobs immediately after graduation as a factor.
  • First off, mac_bolan00 is right, u need grammar classes. Judging by that, i don't think u have the qualifications to make such a judgement.

    Second, I don't know what the connection between having a sense of belonging to ur school with the current international status of our schools are! I mean, are you saying that since they are better, we should just treat our schools as some lame-*** extra-curricular activity??? People talk about their schools because they are proud of something! So what if their school has, like tina11 said, less bandwith or less high-tech facilities! You put side by side a Filipino college graduate and a graduate from any other asian country, and you will find the same range of people.

    Third, GRASS DON'T GROW ON MUD!!!!!
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