Worship

nicolai_franknicolai_frank Christ, Cross, Catholic PExer
The thread about the allegation that Catholics are so obsessed with Mary turns into a battle of arrogance, insolence, juvenility, stupidity, among others. The term worship has not been defined so clearly. Thus, I find it necessary to create a separate thread for that.

I hope the juvenile thinkers will not hijack this thread.

Discussion:

Do Catholics worship Mary and the saints? The answer is YES. We do worship Mary, all the saints, and the angels. If Catholics worship them, are we now idolatrous? The answer is NO.

We have to bear in mind that there are three kinds of worship. These are:

1. Latria (Adoration). This is the highest form of worship which belongs to God alone. This kind of worship, in Catholic theology, cannot be given to any saint, angel or even Mary. Any Catholic who worship angel, saint, or Mary in the sense of ADORATION commits the deadly sin of IDOLATRY. The Catholic Church condemns this act.

2. Hyperdulia (Higher Veneration). This is the kind of worship reserved for Mary being the Mother of God.

3. Dulia. This is the kind of worship reserved for the angels and saints being friends of God.

Key points:

We do not worship Mary, the saints and angels with divine honor for that belongs to God alone.

Worshipping the angels and saints are sanctioned by God. It is biblical.

Joshua 5:15

13 And when Josue was in the field of the city of Jericho, he lifted up his eyes, and saw a man standing over against him: holding a drawn sword, and he went to him, and said: Art thou one of ours, or of our adversaries? 14 And he answered: No: but I am prince of the host of the Lord, and now I am come. 15 Josue fell on his face to the ground. And worshipping, add: What saith my lord to his servant?
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Comments

  • FBIFBI Member PExer
    Do more research on pagan practices. I'm sure you'll see the connection.
  • nmnemonmnemo Member PExer
    Worshipping the angels and saints are sanctioned by God. It is biblical.

    Joshua 5:15

    13 And when Josue was in the field of the city of Jericho, he lifted up his eyes, and saw a man standing over against him: holding a drawn sword, and he went to him, and said: Art thou one of ours, or of our adversaries? 14 And he answered: No: but I am prince of the host of the Lord, and now I am come. 15 Josue fell on his face to the ground. And worshipping, add: What saith my lord to his servant?

    On the contrary, worshipping angels is forbidden:

    Revelations 22:8-9:
    "And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant ... worship God."

    And that's in the New Testament :bop:
  • nicolai_franknicolai_frank Christ, Cross, Catholic PExer
    nmnemo wrote: »
    On the contrary, worshipping angels is forbidden:

    Revelations 22:8-9:
    "And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant ... worship God."

    And that's in the New Testament :bop:

    Douay Version
    8 And I, John, who have heard and seen these things. And after I had heard and seen, I fell down to adore before the feet of the angel, who showed me these things. 9 And he said to me: See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them that keep the words of the prophecy of this book. Adore God.

    John wanted to ADORE (latria) the angel. It is only God who deserves such reverence.
  • nicolai_franknicolai_frank Christ, Cross, Catholic PExer
    FBI wrote: »
    Do more research on pagan practices. I'm sure you'll see the connection.

    A doctrine is not wrong simply because it resembles some pagan practice.
  • nmnemonmnemo Member PExer
    Douay Version

    John wanted to ADORE (latria) the angel. It is only God who deserves such reverence.

    yep, you guys love to invent words :D to justify your unbiblical practices.
  • ridler2012ridler2012 NOIZ PExer
    nmnemo wrote: »
    yep, you guys love to invent words :D to justify your unbiblical practices.

    *okay* *okay* *okay*
  • nicolai_franknicolai_frank Christ, Cross, Catholic PExer
    nmnemo wrote: »
    yep, you guys love to invent words :D to justify your unbiblical practices.

    The word "Bible" was an invention of the Catholic Church. Why Protestants adopt it when this word cannot be read in any verse?
  • nmnemonmnemo Member PExer
    We have to bear in mind that there are three kinds of worship. These are:

    1. Latria (Adoration). This is the highest form of worship which belongs to God alone. This kind of worship, in Catholic theology, cannot be given to any saint, angel or even Mary. Any Catholic who worship angel, saint, or Mary in the sense of ADORATION commits the deadly sin of IDOLATRY. The Catholic Church condemns this act.

    2. Hyperdulia (Higher Veneration). This is the kind of worship reserved for Mary being the Mother of God.

    3. Dulia. This is the kind of worship reserved for the angels and saints being friends of God.

    Catholics love to invent or add new terms and categories to God's words. Didn't God command us not to add or subtract from his word?

    Basa:

    Proverbs 30:5-6:
    Every word of God is pure. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. :bop:

    Revelations 22:18-19
    If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life.
  • FBIFBI Member PExer
    A doctrine is not wrong simply because it resembles some pagan practice.

    It's not actually some, its 100% pure pagan worship. I let you do the research.
  • ridler2012ridler2012 NOIZ PExer
    Nothing is wrong in adopting the bible as a word. It's not a matter of faith :D
  • nicolai_franknicolai_frank Christ, Cross, Catholic PExer
    FBI wrote: »
    It's not actually some, its 100% pure pagan worship. I let you do the research.

    Really? Would you care prove it rather than turn the table on me?
  • nicolai_franknicolai_frank Christ, Cross, Catholic PExer
    nmnemo wrote: »
    Catholics love to invent or add new terms and categories to God's words. Didn't God command us not to add or subtract from his word?

    Basa:

    Proverbs 30:5-6:
    Every word of God is pure. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. :bop:

    Revelations 22:18-19
    If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life.

    So what part of the words of God the Catholic Church added to?
  • nicolai_franknicolai_frank Christ, Cross, Catholic PExer
    No substantial argument has been presented against the topic, so far.
  • nmnemonmnemo Member PExer
    So what part of the words of God the Catholic Church added to?

    A lot. Don't have time to enumerate them all. Did you guys add Latria, Hyperdulia, and Dulia? :confused:

    me: "God said do not worship angels."
    catholic: "This is what God really meant, there are 3 kinds of worship..." (Catholics can read God's mind) :D

    Maybe you could show me a verse in the scripture that says there are 3 types of worship? :confused:

    And why did Catholics subtract a commandment from the 10 commandments? Catholics have their own version of the 10 commandments, and in your version, you subtracted the part which says, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image."
  • nicolai_franknicolai_frank Christ, Cross, Catholic PExer
    nmnemo wrote: »
    A lot. Don't have time to enumerate them all. Did you guys add Latria, Hyperdulia, and Dulia? :confused:

    me: "God said do not worship angels."
    catholic: "This is what God really meant, there are 3 kinds of worship..." (Catholics can read God's mind) :D

    Not that the Catholic Church can read the mind of God. The thing is, God teaches the Catholic Church since it is the society he founded.
    Maybe you could show me a verse in the scripture that says there are 3 types of worship? :confused:

    You mean word for word? I cannot give you if that is what you want.
    And why did Catholics subtract a commandment from the 10 commandments? Catholics have their own version of the 10 commandments, and in your version, you subtracted the part which says, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image."

    Are you sure? Moses was the person whom God entrusted the Decalogue. But did you not know that Moses made graven images himself?
  • nmnemonmnemo Member PExer
    God teaches the Catholic Church since it is the society he founded.

    He TEACHES CC how exactly? He sends his spirit to the pope or talks to him in his sleep?

    You mean word for word? I cannot give you if that is what you want.

    I'm not asking word for word. You may prove it using scriptures, verses + logic. Just don't give me interpretations.

    Are you sure? Moses was the person whom God entrusted the Decalogue.

    Yes I am SURE that Catholics have their own version of the 10 commandments different from the one in the scriptures. My question is, why did you guys subtract the part which says " Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image."?
  • FBIFBI Member PExer
    Really? Would you care prove it rather than turn the table on me?

    No and no. I've learned that a little bit of research is just a click away on the mouse. If you prefer, go to a library and do some research. I don't think its all that hard.

    If you are looking to prove yourself right, then whatever rocks your boat. Having been online since the BBS days, before the internet came to be, I have learned that it is actually useless and a totally waste of time arguing with an RC member because they are close already. Thus the word "saradong katoliko".

    If they want to listen, they are welcomed. If not, what can we do? It is but only a repetitive exercise - having to repeat the same verses over and over and over again. Having to repeat the same arguments over and over again. It's like already praying the rosary. Luckily, we have copy and paste technology. Really saves time.

    Presenting solid evidences is like teaching a grade school student the anatomy of the human body. They just don't get it. Let me rephrase that, they refuse to get it. Totally amazes me. Its like a big thick wall in front of them.

    So, how now? Expose their practices, idolatry, and false teachings. Do it with minimal engagement to the devotee to avoid repetitious arguments and wasting of time. Hopefully, a devotee might get it and their eyes may be opened and so be saved.


    Anyway, good luck guys. Been there, done that. ;)
  • Lola_RoseLola_Rose IMPERSONATED PExer
    Not that the Catholic Church can read the mind of God. The thing is, God teaches the Catholic Church since it is the society he founded.

    Nicolai, when we use plain and simple logic, if the RCC is the society that God founded, why are the RCC teachings different from God's teachings that are written in the Bible? I can even make my own list of RCC teachings that are AGAINST God's words. Do you want me to?

    Can't you accept the possibility that the RCC is false? I mean, this is just the religion that the Spaniards have brought to our shores!


    The Inquisition is over eons ago, it's perfectly OKAY to question the RCC faith, nicolai. No one's gonna kill you. The truth will set you free. It's OKAY to research on pagan practices.

    It is getting tiresome. :depressed:

    OPEN YOUR MIND. the truth about the RCC is glaring in your face.
  • PronghornPronghorn Think freely or be damned. PExer
    Hmm. So you don't like painting portraits of your god/s, eh? To each his own. I like making them portraits. Doesn't hurt.
  • nicolai_franknicolai_frank Christ, Cross, Catholic PExer
    nmnemo wrote: »
    He TEACHES CC how exactly? He sends his spirit to the pope or talks to him in his sleep?

    Not quiet. Jesus founded the Catholic Church. This Church was the indestructible Church not even the gates of hell cannot prevail against it (Mat. 16:18). To this Church he promised to send the Holy Spirit which would abide by it forever (John 14:16, 26). This is the Church which is the pillar and foundation of the truth (Timothy 3:15).
    I'm not asking word for word. You may prove it using scriptures, verses + logic. Just don't give me interpretations.

    Sure. In Joshua Joshua 5:15, one form of worship is recorded. It is the worship of angel and the Catholic Church terms it dulia or veneration.



    Yes I am SURE that Catholics have their own version of the 10 commandments different from the one in the scriptures. My question is, why did you guys subtract the part which says " Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image."?

    But as I have pointed out, Mose himself made graven images considering that the Decalogue was entrusted to him.

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