COMMUNITY NOTICE: If you are having trouble in your account access, please do send us a message at [email protected] for assistance.

Paul and the law.

Romans
Chapter 7
1
1 Are you unaware, brothers (for I am speaking to people who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over one as long as one lives?
2
Thus a married woman is bound by law to her living husband; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law in respect to her husband.
3
Consequently, while her husband is alive she will be called an adulteress if she consorts with another man. But if her husband dies she is free from that law, and she is not an adulteress if she consorts with another man.
4
In the same way, my brothers, you also were put to death to the law through the body of Christ, so that you might belong to another, to the one who was raised from the dead in order that we might bear fruit for God.
5
For when we were in the flesh, our sinful passions, awakened by the law, worked in our members to bear fruit for death.

6
But now we are released from the law, dead to what held us captive, so that we may serve in the newness of the spirit and not under the obsolete letter.
7
2 3 What then can we say? That the law is sin? Of course not! Yet I did not know sin except through the law, and I did not know what it is to covet except that the law said, "You shall not covet."
8
But sin, finding an opportunity in the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetousness. Apart from the law sin is dead.
9
I once lived outside the law, but when the commandment came, sin became alive;
10
then I died, and the commandment that was for life turned out to be death for me.
11
For sin, seizing an opportunity in the commandment, deceived me and through it put me to death.
12
So then the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13
4 Did the good, then, become death for me? Of course not! Sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin, worked death in me through the good, so that sin might become sinful beyond measure through the commandment.
14
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold into slavery to sin.
15
What I do, I do not understand. For I do not do what I want, but I do what I hate.
16
Now if I do what I do not want, I concur that the law is good.
17
So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
18
For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh. The willing is ready at hand, but doing the good is not.
19
For I do not do the good I want, but I do the evil I do not want.
20
Now if (I) do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21
So, then, I discover the principle that when I want to do right, evil is at hand.
22
For I take delight in the law of God, in my inner self,
23
but I see in my members another principle at war with the law of my mind, taking me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 5
24
Miserable one that I am! Who will deliver me from this mortal body?
25
Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore, I myself, with my mind, serve the law of God but, with my flesh, the law of sin.
Table of Contents Previous Chapter Next Chapter
Footnotes

1 [1-6] Paul reflects on the fact that Christians have a different understanding of the law because of their faith in Christ. Law binds the living, not the dead, as exemplified in marriage, which binds in life but is dissolved through death. Similarly, Christians who through baptism have died with Christ to sin (cf Romans 6:2-4) are freed from the law that occasioned transgressions, which in turn were productive of death. Now that Christians are joined to Christ, the power of Christ's resurrection makes it possible for them to bear the fruit of newness of life for God.

2 [7-25] In this passage Paul uses the first person singular in the style of diatribe for the sake of argument. He aims to depict the disastrous consequences when a Christian reintroduces the law as a means to attain the objective of holiness pronounced in Romans 6:22.

3 [7-12] The apostle defends himself against the charge of identifying the law with sin. Sin does not exist in law but in human beings, whose sinful inclinations are not overcome by the proclamation of law.

4 [13-25] Far from improving the sinner, law encourages sin to expose itself in transgressions or violations of specific commandments (see Romans 1:24; 5:20). Thus persons who do not experience the justifying grace of God, and Christians who revert to dependence on law as the criterion for their relationship with God, will recognize a rift between their reasoned desire for the goodness of the law and their actual performance that is contrary to the law. Unable to free themselves from the slavery of sin and the power of death, they can only be rescued from defeat in the conflict by the power of God's grace working through Jesus Christ.

5 [23] As in Romans 3:27 Paul plays on the term law, which in Greek can connote custom, system, or principle.

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/romans/romans7.htm


"What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet, if it had not been for the law, I should not have known sin. I should not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." (Romans 7:7; RSV)

If this is true, then we must acknowledge that man cannot be guilty of coveting, since he doesn't know what 'coveting' consists of; he cannot murder even if he unjustly, and by forethought, kills another since he has never heard the word, murder, and he does not know what it means. This is the most heinous of concepts man can begin to consider as a defense.

Simply put, any thing or any person which leads another to commit a crime (sin) is an accomplice to that act. If any thing, or any person, leads another to do evil, then that thing or person is also evil. Righteousness cannot lead one to unrighteousness, therefore, the law which was conceived and administered by the Lord God, and not Satan, cannot be evil or cause one to sin. Nor can evil work through it.

A thought is suggested for a second time. Without the Law, if Paul had snuck up behind another and killed him, committed murder, would it not still be murder? Without any concept of God, there is within the human animal a sense of fair and unfair. Even if we are a blank concerning the existence of God, we are not restricted from having a sensibility of right and wrong.

Paul's argument is extremely juvenile because he assumes that before the Law there was no sin! "Apart from the law, sin lies dead." (Romans 7:8; RSV)

If there is no law, sin cannot exist. That is what he is saying, but just moments ago he said that before the law there was sin, the sin of Adam and Eve. He is wrong on both accounts.

The web becomes so complex that Paul weaves in an attempt to deceive, that even he cannot keep up with it. All his 'wisdom' becomes foolishness. Unfortunately, the deception has worked, and continued for two thousand years. The giving of the Spirit becomes a 'wholesale' item, the free gift received, those in the church are no longer saints but the children of God, and if the children of God, then heirs. (Romans 8:16-17; RSV)

And now Paul strikes upon the ultimate theory, and the ultimate confusion.

http://www.pinoyexchange.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14437170&postcount=30

Comments

  • JongaJonga Banned by Admin PExer
    first things first, i think Paul talks about the law in the scriptures and not the law of man or government.

    it is clear here that paul is referring to sin as dead...meaning with no life....to sin is not exactly to break the law, to sin is to be dead....being dead is sinful, therefore being alive with God is not sinful

    and i get the feeling that Paul does not admonish the law, although its not wrong for believers to have the law, but it is better to focus on life and avoid being dead.

    the chapter really doesnt talk about the law being good or evil, it talks about the law being dead in some 'brothers', God doesnt care about good or evil, he talks about life, for what is the use to follow the law when inside a christian he is dead??

    there are more to this, this is only an explanation on how to be dead in the law. there are passages i think that talks about how to be alive

    there is really no theory here, Paul does not intend to give a set of procedures for man to follow for the benefit of man, its all for the benefit of God.....theories are made for the benefit of man, theories have no place in God's....this is imo

    not sure though...
  • blue[]ceblue[]ce Member PExer
    first things first. a misunderstanding.

    When I refer to paul and the law, I am referring to paul and the likes of the mosaic law and ten commandments as previously discussed here.
    "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

    And even Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law and those who teach the law but do not follow the law will be called the least in heaven. Not even a word of the law will change.

    again
    "What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet, if it had not been for the law, I should not have known sin. I should not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." (Romans 7:7; RSV)

    If this is true, then we must acknowledge that man cannot be guilty of coveting, since he doesn't know what 'coveting' consists of; he cannot murder even if he unjustly, and by forethought, kills another since he has never heard the word, murder, and he does not know what it means. This is the most heinous of concepts man can begin to consider as a defense.

    Simply put, any thing or any person which leads another to commit a crime (sin) is an accomplice to that act. If any thing, or any person, leads another to do evil, then that thing or person is also evil. Righteousness cannot lead one to unrighteousness, therefore, the law which was conceived and administered by the Lord God, and not Satan, cannot be evil or cause one to sin. Nor can evil work through it.

    A thought is suggested for a second time. Without the Law, if Paul had snuck up behind another and killed him, committed murder, would it not still be murder? Without any concept of God, there is within the human animal a sense of fair and unfair. Even if we are a blank concerning the existence of God, we are not restricted from having a sensibility of right and wrong.

    Paul's argument is extremely juvenile because he assumes that before the Law there was no sin! "Apart from the law, sin lies dead." (Romans 7:8; RSV)

    If there is no law, sin cannot exist. That is what he is saying, but just moments ago he said that before the law there was sin, the sin of Adam and Eve. He is wrong on both accounts.
  • JongaJonga Banned by Admin PExer
    oh...

    but its really confusing which law is which since the Bible was written by different people....

    makes me think that to know which is the real law is to stop focusing on it instead try to understand why it is written and why them writers wrote it at that time and place...and then try to understand whats it for and how it benefits their God, at that time and place...

    imo only
  • blue[]ceblue[]ce Member PExer
    "What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet, if it had not been for the law, I should not have known sin. I should not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." (Romans 7:7; RSV)

    It is clear to see what laws Paul was referring to. not just IMO but also fact :D
  • eastereaster Pinoy PExer
    Paul is talking about two things here.

    1. Paul was saying that the law was something that opens our eyes as to what is sin. The law gives direction to us what is sinful and what is pleasing to God.

    2. Paul is also saying that the law doesn't save us, only the Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross saves us if we believe.

    Note this as well that when God gave the law, was it before or after He saved the Israelites from Egypt? Remember the introduction of Exodus 20 before the 10 commandments were mentioned.

    "And God spoke all these words: I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery." (Exodus 20:1-2)

    This shows that before the laws God saved His people first. This is consistent with Christianity wherein one believes in Jesus Christ first and be saved before one understands the laws of God. So it isn't by doing the law or being good that one gets saved, one does the law or do good works as an evidence that one is saved!
  • JongaJonga Banned by Admin PExer
    the law 'Youshall not covet'?

    or the law that makes paul sin?

    or is it this one
    5 [23] As in Romans 3:27 Paul plays on the term law, which in Greek can connote custom, system, or principle.

    is this one of those passages that contardicts to other passages?? :lol:
  • blue[]ceblue[]ce Member PExer
    Note this as well that when God gave the law, was it before or after He saved the Israelites from Egypt? Remember the introduction of Exodus 20 before the 10 commandments were mentioned.

    Was it before the fall of man that God gave the prohibition on eating the forbidden fruit or was it after?
    This shows that before the laws God saved His people first. This is consistent with Christianity wherein one believes in Jesus Christ first and be saved before one understands the laws of God. So it isn't by doing the law or being good that one gets saved, one does the law or do good works as an evidence that one is saved!

    Based on my example above regarding the forbidden fruit, God gave the law first then saved Adam and Eve.
    1. Paul was saying that the law was something that opens our eyes as to what is sin. The law gives direction to us what is sinful and what is pleasing to God.

    So why is Paul so against following the law?
    Upon Paul's arrival in Jerusalem, he gave the apostles his account of bringing Gentiles to the faith. According to Acts, James the Just confronted Paul with the charge that he was teaching the Jews to ignore the law and asked him to demonstrate that he was a law-abiding Jew by taking a Nazirite vow (21:26). However, that Paul did so is difficult to reconcile with his personally expressed attitude both in Galatians and Philippians, where he utterly opposed any idea that the law was binding on Christians, declaring that even Peter did not live by the law (Gal 2:14)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_of_Tarsus


    2. Paul is also saying that the law doesn't save us, only the Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross saves us if we believe.

    Matthew 5

    17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    and in Paul's own words
    Paul said that no one can be justified under the law, yet to the Romans, Jew first, Gentile next, he makes the following statement.

    "All who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified." (Romans 2:12-13; RSV)


    Has Paul come 'round to sanity? He is speaking of faith with acts; works. He is finally speaking of instruction that comes from Jesus. Fear not, for Paul discloses the fact that God's punishment will come when, "...according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus." (Romans 2:16; RSV)

    Here, when he had the opportunity to reference his gospel directly to Jesus' teachings, Paul raises Jesus to empirical heights by contending that he will be the Judge of all things on the Day of Judgment. The gospels say that too? Paul's theology and writings came before the written gospels!

    Paul cannot help but trip himself up. His play of words, based on his own inventions, continues to go out of control. He jumps from judgment to a glorious poly-philosophical statement of circumcision-uncircumcision, to the equality of Jew and Gentile. Then in Chapter 3, vss. 10-18, Paul uses a string of quotations from the Old Testament which invoke a strong reaction from theologians and interpreter's alike, all scholars of the word.

    "This conclusion, is based on a string of quotations from Psalms 14:1-2; 53:102; 5:9; 140:3; 10:7; Isaiah 59:7-8; Ps. 36:1. These scriptures are a free translation of the LXX, ands are used, "...without reference to their various contexts." (The Interpreter's Bible; Volume 9: Page 425)

    How much does it take to understand what this person is about? He obviously had no fear of God for he introduces himself and 'his' gospel with a corrupt use of God's word. And repudiating what he said not moments ago, Paul advises us that, "...no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law since through the law comes knowledge of sin." (Romans 3:20; RSV)

    This is an absolute contradiction to what he has just said. If we are to be judged by the things we have done, and we have done them properly, we should be judged accordingly, with reward. Paul says this is impossible because God's Law leads us to sin!

    The knowledge of sin came from Adam and Eve when they ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. ("You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it lest you die.' But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:4-5; RSV)

    The Law came from God, through Moses, to protect man from sin. It was a contract between God and man that came as a gift for those who wished to become God's children. It was upheld by Jesus in its sum total, and he practiced it accordingly. No where does Jesus abrogate The Law.
  • eastereaster Pinoy PExer
    blue[]ce wrote: »
    Was it before the fall of man that God gave the prohibition on eating the forbidden fruit or was it after?



    Based on my example above regarding the forbidden fruit, God gave the law first then saved Adam and Eve.

    This is totally different and is not in line with the law Paul is talking about. Remember that Adam and Eve before they ate that fruit have not sinned yet.

    blue[]ce wrote: »
    So why is Paul so against following the law?

    Paul was not against the law per se. Paul was against using the law as a basis for salvation! The law was being used as a burden to the Gentiles when in fact only ones faith in what Jesus did on the Cross is enough for salvation.

    Remember also that it wasn't Paul who first preached to the Gentiles and was criticized by the Jews. It was Peter!

    Read Acts 10 for this:
    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=10&version=31

    What Paul was saying was particularly in line with Jesus when the latter said:

    "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (Matthew 5:17)

    The law is there to show us how sinful we are and how has Christ redeemed all of us this time not with sacrifices of bulls and doves but with His own blood!

    All the the sacrificial symbols in the law found its fulfillment in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ!
  • blue[]ceblue[]ce Member PExer
    This is totally different and is not in line with the law Paul is talking about. Remember that Adam and Eve before they ate that fruit have not sinned yet.

    Mind elaborating why this is different?

    eto po ang karugtong nung verse na quote mo easter

    18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


    To fulfill the law, not one jot will be changed. the law must be followed. Those who follow them will be called great in heaven. The law is good. According to Jesus. It is not just a minor thing for gentiles.
    Paul was against using the law as a basis for salvation!

    What does this verse mean for you?
    "All who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified." (Romans 2:12-13; RSV)
  • eastereaster Pinoy PExer
    Blue_ice. Better read the whole chapter of Romans 12 to get a proper context.

    Paul was saying that if one wants to follow the law and not trust Jesus Christ for his or her salvation, then they should follow it completely and perfectly!

    We all know that no one can do that right?
  • blue[]ceblue[]ce Member PExer
    Easter, better read the whole book of the NT to get a proper context.

    Paul was just saying that they should not follow the judaizers headed by James the brother of Jesus, the leader of the early christian church but to follow himself(Paul). He was stealing his authority.

    For more proof, view the video posted in another thread.
  • aidaaida Member PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    Jonga,

    You have explained Romans 7:1-25 very well.

    Maybe you are one of the lost sheeps of the Lord.
  • JongaJonga Banned by Admin PExer
    a lucky sheep i guess, people grow ;)

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file