[MERGED] Circumcision

GARLiCGARLiC spice up your life! PExer
I watched Probe last night and one of their segments was about circumcision. May mga tanong lang ako:

1. Kailangan ba talagang patuli ng mga lalaki?

2. Kahit anong age ba pwede itong gawin?

3. Maaapektuhan ba ang kalusugan ng isang lalaki pag di sya nagpatuli?

4. Sabi sa Probe, okay lang naman na hindi tuli ang isang lalaki. Kaso lang sa kultura natin, mahirap na ang matawag na "supot." Kultural ba talaga ang dahilan kung bakit nagpapatuli ang mga lalaki, hindi medikal?
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Comments

  • archangelarchangel anti-social PExer
    I think tuli is done becoz of medical rather than cultural reasons. The *****, in Tagalog... err nevermind, that sticks or that accumulates on the glans penis is smelly and can cause infections. Studies also say that uncircumcised men are more prone to penile(?) cancer. It can also pain during coitus.
  • IraIra Member PEx Rookie ⭐
    Actually, the need for circumcision is still a debate in medical circles, and more and more doctors are going against it. While it was an accepted practice about a decade or two ago, allegedly because it decreases penile cancer, it helps protect against STD and infections, and it supposedly heightens sensations during sex, most of these were proven to be untrue. Both the Canadian Paediatric Society and the American Academy of Pediatrics have issued public statements withdrawing their support for this procedure.

    The myths about circumcision are:

    1. It prevents kids from getting urinary tract infection- Although there appears to be a small difference in the rate of UTIs in the first year of life between boys who are circumcised and those who are intact, complications of the procedure occur at a rate far greater than the overall rate of UTIs. The loss of the protective foreskin leaves the urinary tract vulnerable to invasion by bacteria and virus.

    2. Penile Cancer- There is no evidence that circumcision has any causal relation to penile cancer. The American Cancer Society has stated that circumcision in not of value in preventing this.

    3. STD/AIDS prevention- While some studies found a positive correlation between lack of circumcision and HIV status, several other studies found the exact opposite — a higher HIV risk in circumcised men.

    4. The foreskin is unhygienic-Foreskin protects against disease; it doesn’t cause disease. If foreskin is unhygienic, eyelids should be considered unhygienic. The foreskin protects the glans and keeps its surface soft, moist, and sensitive. It also maintains optimal warmth, pH balance, and cleanliness.The natural penis requires no special care. A child's foreskin, like his eyelids, is self-cleansing. Immersion in plain water during the bath is all that is needed to keep the intact penis clean. ***** is probably the most misunderstood, most unjustifiably maligned substance in nature. ***** is clean, not dirty, and is beneficial and necessary. It moisturizes the glans and keeps it smooth, soft, and supple. Its antibacterial and antiviral properties keep the penis clean and healthy.

    5. The foreskin causes pain during sex-As it becomes erect, the penile shaft becomes thicker and longer. The foreskin provides enough skin necessary to accommodate the expanded organ and to allow the penile skin to glide freely and smoothly over the shaft and glans.

    So what do you else do you miss when you get circumcised? Some doctors say it's a significant amount of sexual sensitivity. Foreskin amputation means severing the rich nerve network and all the nerve receptors in the foreskin itself.

    Regarding your question about what age it could be performed on--it can be done on all males, from newborns to geriatric patients.
  • KuyaDannyKuyaDanny Moderator PEx Moderator
    There are also religious origins. Tuli is an important ceremony for Jewish infants (that was one way the Nazis used to detect their victims). And since Christianity traces its roots to Judaism, the practice of circumcision was also carried over.

    The Catholic church teaches very little about circumcision, which leads me to believe that it's no big deal to them, in a religious sense.

    As to the issue on loss of sexual sensitivity, I am afraid I can't speak authoritatively on this as I was circumcised before becoming sexually active. But it doesn't appear to hurt most Filipino men, judging from their activities... ;)

    [This message has been edited by KuyaDanny (edited 01-28-2000).]
  • ctvctv Member PExer
    If I have a choice, I wouldn't want that part of me cut or removed. Tuli is done, as a part of a religious practice. It is said that for the believers to prove their faith, they should sacrifice. And what better way to sacrifice is to cut off ones foreskin. Of course, the sacrifice becomes meaningful if risk is involved. The greater the risk, the greater the sacrifice. (not necessarily--the bigger foreskin, the greater the sacrifice, it is just that you end up with a shorter schlong).
    The belief that being uncircumsized means that it is automatically unhygienic, is also not true (I can actually hear the women screaming--Hold the mayo!). It only becomes like that, if it is not being washed regularly (just like any part of our body).
    It is true that being circumsized, lessens the sensitivity of the "thingie" (not to mention the added size it would make ones "thingie" if it was not cut/sacrificed).
    I have read somewhere that the lost skin can be grown back--by attaching weights to the severed part of the foreskin. And they say that the sensitivity also is returned. If not completely at least partly (who cares about sensitivity, when you can look more impressive with the added "new you").

    I will just add to this reply later.

    [This message has been edited by ctv (edited 02-07-2000).]
  • abraqkadabraabraqkadabra resident lurker PExer
    it would really be nice to know how it feels like to have that foreskin.. would it be more enjoyable to have sex with it or without it? am just curious are there filipino men who are uncircumcised??
  • IraIra Member PEx Rookie ⭐
    Having a foreskin SUPPOSEDLY heightens sexual pleasure, because the foreskin has a lot of nerve endings. I really wouldn't know, nature has not equipped me with the said tools. :) And yes, there are a lot of Filipino adults who are uncircumcised.
  • abraqkadabraabraqkadabra resident lurker PExer
    miss Ira do you know if any women prefer men without foreskin???
  • clawed_outclawed_out Banned by Admin PEx Influencer ⭐⭐⭐
    doc ira,

    will it be ok for my son to have him circumsized (? am i spelling it right?) when he's still a baby?
  • IraIra Member PEx Rookie ⭐
    abraqkadabra: In the same way that some men prefer women with big breasts and some don't, some women prefer their men uncircumcised, while others don't. Different strokes. :)

    clawed_out: Yes.
  • AdaAda Administrator PEx Moderator
    Can one tell the difference between an uncircumcised thingy from a circumcised one based on the way it looks? I remember my mom telling me that the reason why she didn't have my brothers circumcised at birth was because she was afraid that other kids would tease them if their thingies looked different.
  • IraIra Member PEx Rookie ⭐
    Ada: er...very easily. To be crude about it, think of the visual difference between an unpeeled and a peeled banana.
  • cloneclone Member PExer
    LOL @ Ira...now you're gonna have all the girls take a curious look at a banana everytime they peel one. ;)

    I thought parents had their sons circumscised so they could have a life-style that's "a cut above." the rest of the guys. ;)


    [This message has been edited by clone (edited 02-12-2000).]
  • slurbrunslurbrun the LibRan PExer
    I like this thread! A Lot! ;) Wala ako masabi.
  • Lo LoLo Lo Member PExer
    Teka muna mga bata. Lubayan na ninyo si doktora at ang tingin ko ay namumula na.

    Ada, madali lang makita ang kaibahan. Kung nakita mo na iyong sa mga batang lalaki na hindi tuli, pag binatak mo yung balat na pababa, lilitaw ang ulo. Ganoon ang hitsura ng tuli. Isa pa, ang mga batang hindi tuli ang pinagtatawanan ng kapwa lalake...sabihin mo yan sa mother mo.
  • Orion D.Orion D. ex-MODE-rator PExer
    Kuya Danny:

    While it's true that Christianity does trace its roots to Judaism, early Christianity wasn't particularly conscious about that practice. Most especially since it was a sect which recruited a lot of non-Semites (non-Jews, non-Arabs) like Greeks and Romans whose previous religious/cultural preference was to keep the human body as "perfect" as it already was. Remember that in Greco-Roman culture, the human body was considered to be the most beautiful form and was considered "perfect" which is why a lot of Greco-Roman art features naked sculptures, some of which don't have fig-leaves and instead show "it" with foreskin.

    In order to compete in the Olympian games, for instance, aspiring athletes should not have "mutilated" their bodies.

    Therefore it seems that most of Europe's Christians (under the Roman Empire, especially) didn't practice it. That basically carried on with their descendents to even as late as WWII's Nazi Germany, and even as late / recent as TODAY...

    Anyway, it is very true that the Nazis themselves did use the "who's circumcised, who's not" method of determining who'd be a Jew, when they'd suspect certain people... The point was, the practice was clear-cut. Jews were definitely circumcised, and gentiles (including Christians /Catholics) weren't.

    ...Who among the Christians are circumcised...?

    Well, obviously, it's a common practice among Filipino Christians.

    Now, here's what I'm not so sure of. I don't know if the practice of circumcision is based on the pre-Hispanic practice that Pigafetta describes as "natives mutilating the foreskin to have a metallic ring" or if it was a practice that the Spaniards might have brought...

    Anyway, here's where the Iberian peninsula was different from the rest of Europe:

    The Iberian peninsula (Spain and Portugal) was under centuries of Moorish-Arab-Islamic rule. Remember that Islam is a very strict offshoot of Judaism. Just like Judaism, they strictly don't eat pork, they don't use icons and images, and they strictly circumcise for religious reasons.

    The Iberian peninsula's Christians, a.k.a. the Mozarabs (Mozarabes), were one group among three. There were Muslims (Mudejars), Jews (Judios), and Christians (Mozarabes) back in Medieval Spain and Portugal.

    The Muslims and Jews in Spain and Portugal clearly had circumcision as an already existing practice, and the only difference, was that the Jews had it during infancy (within 8 days), while the Muslims used it as a rite of passage, instead of having a Jewish Bar Mitzvah. (Somewhere around 13/14 yrs old tinutuli sila...)

    Well, it seems that being seemingly outnumbered, the Mozarab Christians sort of took on the practice of circumcision from both groups, and probably, they took the Muslim version as a rite of passage as well.

    I'm told by a friend of mine from the US that in the shower rooms where all the guys take a common bath, the Latinos are just like Filipinos in that they also have "no foreskins..." While among WASPS, it's basically a "choice..."

    I think that the Spanish conquistadores and the frailes might have actually helped out in giving the idea that circumcision is a good practice. And so, it's possible that we have ended up thinking of it as a religious practice.

    So think again... Catholicism/Christianity for that matter don't put a premium on the practice. However, I may add, though, that Arab Christians from Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, as well as Coptic Orthodox Christians from Egypt and Ethiopia probably do the practice as well, since these Eastern Christian groups were closest to the source of Judaism and Islam, and probably did the practice as a matter of Hamito-Semitic culture, rather than as a religious necesity.

    * I do remember one instance when my former officemates and I were talking about "what age a child is to be circumcised," and our Managing Director, a Singaporean, overheard the conversation and said, "Why you do det, la? What is da reason foh det prektice? I tot only da Mooz-leem do det?" We all sort of got so quiet, and since he was obviously not Muslim, and his tone and question gave him away, we all stared at each other in surprise, and mumbled... "POT-SU pala si Bossing..."

    Anyway, it really isn't a religious requirement, as far as Catholicism/Christianity is concerned. I think it's more of a cultural one.

    As for Americans. I think it was a choice for many of them. It's been considered to be a good hygenic practice which a lot of newborns underwent, mainly because I think that a lot of America's doctors (a lot of whom are Jewish) suggested the practice as being a very hygenic one. It's probably a 50-50 kind of thing, or perhaps a random one among those who aren't Jewish. Some are, some arent... :)
  • Believe it or not but I delved into this topic during my undergraduate thesis. But since I'm a psychology major, I focused more on the meaning of "pagtutuli" for young adolescent boys. Results of our study showed that it serves a very "social" purpose. Such that, young Filipino boys see circumsicion as an act of courage and manhood. This means that it serves as an important rite of passage into manhood.

    Males who didn't have neonatal circumcision may remember how painful it was to be called "supot". Interestingly this remark means "may supot pa siya" or "may supot pa yung *_*_ niya." Peer pressure and gender role identity serves as motivation for adolescent males to undergo this event.

    The rite of circumsicion serves several purposes as stated in literature. In many cultures, it is in fact a rite of passage. It is actually quite interesting to read up on how different cultures give meaning to this event. Mayroon pa ngang female circumcision eh, where they cut off the woman's *****. (Ira, bawal bang gamitin 'tong c word sa post?)

    Gosh, I sound like a geek! Well, I kinda am. Hope you learned something from this post.

    [This message has been edited by *happy*phantom* (edited 02-28-2000).]

    [This message has been edited by *happy*phantom* (edited 02-28-2000).]
  • Orion D.Orion D. ex-MODE-rator PExer
    Female circumcision is said to be prevalent in Egypt. I'm not too sure if it's done in other Arab countries, though...

    In the provinces, pre-war era, the practice of circumcision was done by a quack doctor, without anesthesia. And the guys who'd be circumcised would have to chew guava leaves continuously in the line. Once their time came, right after getting the cut, they'd spit on the wound, and the guava leaves' juice is supposed to aid in healing it. Then, in the afternoon, those boys would have to take a swim in the beach...
    Aray!!!!! Ang Alat!!!!!!

    ...Putting Salt into one's Wounds!... :)
  • berdyberdy Old School PExer
    Doc Ira: does being circumcized really have an effect on a guy's growth spurt? i mean, does it mean that if you get circumcized you'll grow taller faster?
  • jopertjopert Don't work hard, Work smart PExer
    DOC IRA! MISS ka pala! :eek: all the while akala ko man ka e! :D
  • IraIra Member PEx Rookie ⭐
    berdy: Not true at all. That's just a myth probably started by parents to make their kids more ammendable to circumcision. :D

    jopert: Why ever would you think that I'm male? I'm female and proud of it. :)

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