Probing the Atheist's Mind (Atheism In Depth)

Glock

Some say that Atheism is a futile attempt to destroy organized religion, a desperate ideology of free thinkers like me. We live normally, amidst a society which brands our beliefs as anathema, a society which is quick to loathe, scorn and excommunicate those who even dare to question God's authority on man. Some say all we atheists do is to criticize God's Existence, well that's what I'm gonna do Right now. for I'm sick and tired of the prejudice that constantly attacks my ideology. I am hereby issuing a challenge to you "believers", I challenge you to an intellectual justification and debate, here are my points...

"God is the supreme Being, the Creator of the Universe"
Things do not exist merely because they have been defined to do so. We know a lot about the definition of Santa Claus -- what he looks like, what he does, where he lives, what his reindeer are called, and so on. But that still doesn't mean that Santa exists...plain and simple, nothing about God has been proven, all we have have are foggy facts. Even after centuries of effort, nobody has come up with a watertight logical proof of the existence of God. In spite of this, however, people often feel that they can logically prove that God exists. "Oh can't you feel him? He gave you life, he is responsible for all the things around us, yadda yadda" This has been played over and over, Come on guys, try to be innovative. "Logic is a useful tool for analyzing data and inferring what is going on; but if logic and reality disagree, reality wins."

Atheists are evil, they are anti-religion and do nothing but question God
Like I said, I only talk about God when I have to, when I need to Defend my principles, Most atheists take a "live and let live" attitude. Unless questioned, they will not usually mention their atheism, except perhaps to close friends. Of course, this may be in part because atheism is not "socially acceptable" in many countries.

God Works in Mysterious Ways
Yeah sure, God works in mysterious ways, but what I find amazing is that why such a Good God would let others suffer, I mean, we are living in an unbalanced world where the do-gooders are often living in cardboard boxes while the scum of society enjoy the finer side of life. What happened to the definition of Justice? Sure! a Christian would say, the evil will get their due in the afterlife in Hell...but then again "Hell" is techincally a christian term.

Points to Ponder
-Why does religion, specifically the church forbid christians to touch or contest certain catholic Dogma? Are they hiding something? Galileo was incarcerated for suggesting that the sun was the center of the solar system...which was recently proven true. IMHO, The church is afraid that they will lose control of their subjects, thus proving that the church is nothing more but a political institution rather than a religious one. What did the church actually cause in its 2000 years of existence?...Miseducated and closed the minds of the people.

-There is more to moral behavior than mindlessly following rules

-Just because something's popular doesn't mean it's good

-If you must assume something, assume something easy to test.

-Don't believe things just because you want them to be true.


-All beliefs should be open to question.


Thanks for your time, I'd appreciate a logical, realistic reply from you christians

(some points taken "Atheism:Philosophical Justifications)

adlaw

Exactly.

may the truth bless us.

SaintOfKelots

Disagree.

Main Points:

• GOD is NOT comparable to Santa Claus.
• Atheists are NOT evil. They're Devil.
• If GOD does not make you suffer, you won't struggle hard to live and you will be a lazy ***** forever.
• MP3 is popular - and yet it's GOOD!

Thanks for your time, I'd appreciate a logical, realistic reply from you Atheists.


Sarao = Jeep

Les

The primary argument of atheists that God does not exist is the lack of concrete, tangible evidence of His existence. This rests on shaky logical ground because the lack of proof (to support the existence of God) cannot be used as proof (to support his non-existence). In other words it assumes that God be tangible at man's bequest -- a condition He may not opt to fulfill at the present period. It gives neither us God-believers nor you atheists any logical higher ground. What it does lead to is to the middle ground of agnosticism, wherein God cannot be proven nor disproven on the basis of logic. Nothing more, nothing less.

About your statements under the heading "God Works in Mysterious Ways," let me ask your first: did our good God ever say he would make man's life easy? You might draw such conclusion because He said He loves man and because he is good but that is a logical fallacy. Contrary to that, He stated that believers might have to suffer for His glory. It strikes me as sheer arrogance for mortal men to assume that God is there for his comfort!

With regards to your statements under "Points to Ponder," I must first say I'm a Protestant and as such we are ENCOURAGED to learn about our doctrines and especially read the Bible. All is there for us to scrutinize if we choose to do so.

God = Truth

Momon

May God have mercy on our souls...

green grin

glock - the issues you forwarded are legitimate concerns and merit honest answers from christians. i need not tell you that debates on god's existence have never been resolved and we shouldn't fool ourselves that this thread will fare any better. we'll all talk about this and share each other's ideas as calmly and rationally as we can.

pero bukas na lang muna, ha? inaantok ako tsaka mangugulo muna ako sa ibang thread.

FarOutFreak

Just wanted to say that I'm halfway between an atheist and an agnostic... let's say a "practical atheist."

And also, I wanted to comment on two things.

First, I would have to agree that here in this lovely little country of ours, atheism or agnosticism does merit some nasty looks that make people say "evil." If some religions are supposed to encourage freedom of thought and reasoning, why is it that some of its followers go on in such close-minded fashion? I've felt that whenever I've openly questioned why God exists, there almost always has to be the feeling that the people look at me like, well... a freak. Para bang pag di ka naniwala sa Diyos, diretso ka na sa impiyerno.

On that I would have to say that every faith, as my Theology teacher taught, requires a thinking faith. Not a blind faith. And questioning faith is a phase that almost everyone (I think) has to go through, more so nowadays that science and logic are reaching farther and deeper into the human condition. They say that sincerely questioning the faith, then eventually returning to it, does make one's faith stronger. But I haven't found mine yet.

Second, I would say I have (again, as my Theology teacher taught me) a secularistic approach to faith. I'm a Catholic, and I don't really bother with sacraments and traditions and other "religious" stuff. I want to help fight poverty and injustice, because this is what ails our world, and I'm trying that all things I do be for the betterment of human society. I have no time for ritual acts of prayer and worship that seemingly do not contribute to the better society that I yearn for. I believe man has the capacity to help himself, and I guess that's the only faith I have.

Forgive me for just inserting this, Glock, but even though I currently question my faith, it always nags me that there are some things out in reality that logic and reason cannot or may never suffice to explain. They say God is a mystery, and man will never know the secret behind this mystery until his final hour escapes him.

So if that is the case, I guess I'll just have to wait, then.

Glock

Impressive, and I thought that since we're the atheists here, we're the ones who oughta be asking the questions and y'all are just supposed to sit there with no answers

See what I mean about Prejudice? *Sticks his lower lip out* Saint of Kelots said we're not Evil but rather "Devil" :(

And by the way Kelots, MP3 is popular, but bad bad bad, which against proves my point

Well said Faroutfreak.


Anyways...

Heads up God-Believers, There's loads coming up...

Glock

Contradictions in the Bible

Yes, the book I once held sacred. For me The Bible is like a bunch of compiled Star Trek Books, by different authors. The contradictions I will present below implies that either the writers of the bible were confused when they wrote it, or the bible ouhgta be nothing more but a fiction book of a bookstore shelf.

God is Good to Everyone? or to a few?
-PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works

-JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

God is a God of War or of Peace?
-EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name

-ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen

The Father of Joseph
-MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ

-LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

Is Jesus Equal to The Father...err..or not?
-JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.

-JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Is it bad to be wise? or not?
-PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding

-ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that in- creaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

-1 Cor.1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and wil bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."

The Righteous shall live?!?!
-Ps.92:12: "The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree."

-Isa.57:1: "The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart."

Can God be seen or not?!
Exod. 24:9,10; Amos 9:1; Gen. 26:2; and John 14:9

-God CAN be seen:
"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (Ex. 33:23)
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (Ex. 33:11)
"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (Gen. 32:30)

-God CANNOT be seen:
"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (Ex. 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1 Tim. 6:16)

God is ferocious? or Merciful?
-"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (Jer. 13:14) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."

-"The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy." (James 5:11)
"For his mercy endureth forever." (1 Chron. 16:34)
"The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works." (Ps. 145:9)
"God is love." (1 John 4:16)

How did Judas die?!?!
-"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (Matt. 27:5)

-"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)

No Mortal to ascend into heaven?
-"And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2 Kings 2:11)

-"No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, ... the Son of Man." (John 3:13)

Who Really Bears OUR burden and Guilt
-GAL 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

-GAL 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.


um.. ?????????????????????



[This message has been edited by Glock (edited 07-02-2000).]

Les

Well Glock your loads of contradictions are rather a disappointment. Unfortunately you (or the author from where you got those -- an atheists handbook?) fell into the common mistake of taking the meaning of the verses out of context. Contradictions only exist if they are referring to a single case. I could just pull out verses from here and there in the Bible that talk about what may appear to be the same thing, when it actually refers to another thing. You cannot take Bible verses at face value without understanding the circumstances surrounding them, otherwise you are guilty, inadvertently or not, of deception. The latter case is quite common, for example in people passing themselves off as preachers of God's word. They are able to convince people that their teaching is legitimate because they have a ready store of verses to support them. Yet if you scrutinize them, they are actually referring to another thing! Bible verses can easily be twisted to suit ones needs but a true and complete interpretation can only come from a thorough, open-minded reading of the Bible, never from opening the Book and glossing over verses.

Bible = Truth

Ira

I'm agnostic, which is not quite atheist, but getting there. My personal take is that just because someone is seriously doubting a higher being's existence doesn't automatically mean a person is evil or a "devil". Everyone has the right to believe or not, which is a basic human right. Atheism is just at the far end of the scale. It's not the bad guy, and Christianity is not automatically the good guy. Most people here are Catholics or Christians, and since time immemorial there has always been arguments for and against the concept of a god. My point here is that everyone has a choice and a right to accept religion or not into their lives, so let's not judge each other too harshly.

bongnpinoy

I'm an atheist and I can honestly say I'll go to haven if in the end their turns out to be a real God. Most Atheist aren't evil. Why should they be, they don't even beleive in the existence of the devil? Well anyway in either case there is no such thing as an evil person, only a sick person inneed of help.

Glock

Les, My intentions are more on the side of Enlightenment rather than Deception. I've brought up the biblical contradictions in order to show the "Holy" book's potential to spin your(our) wheels. Take for instance Gal. Chapter 6 verses 2 and 5, I mean they're in the same book, same chapter, and with just two verses between them, yet it shows inconsistency. You may think that I haven't read them enough to understand more than their context but I have, over and over... and I found out that errancy is everywhere in the Bible. A theory... Maybe because the scriptures were passed on generation after generation, other authors may have misinterpreted what the authors before them have written. AND if that's the case, the Bible is hardly worthy to be held sacred(by christians), since it is plagued by human inconsistencies and errors.

The reason why Christians treat the Bible as history the way they do is because they basically trust it. For the greater part of Christian history there was no reason why Christians should not have trusted the Bible, and indeed it was the foundation of all their knowledge. A great many people who are not aware of the problems involved still trust the Bible in this way, with varying amounts of qualification or reservation. But if we take history seriously, particularly the history of biblical study over the past 350 years, we also have to take into account the rise of a scientific approach based on methodological mistrust, and the fact that in too many areas the Bible, like other areas of Christian theology, has actually failed to stand up to the trust that Christians, rightly or wrongly, had put in it.


Exactly Ira, Like I know atheists who are more prudent and responsible do-gooders than most of the Christians I know will ever be. Another point y'all should consider is that being an Atheist doesn't make us less of a person. Heck christianity produces more societal misfits than we atheists do. (Besides Hitler of course )

bongnpinoy, Interesting. Now I'm starting to think that Christians believe in a God because of fear of penal infliction in the afterlife, specifically "Hell". As Blaise Pascal puts it in his "Wager Theory"

"If you believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you have lost nothing -- but if you don't believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you will go to hell. Therefore it is foolish to be an atheist."

um I assume Pascal's a Christian...Compelling indeed, but That's a wager I'm willing to risk rather than to live my life chanting prayers and engaging in Rituals of a God I refuse to believe in. So God's a safe bet huh? hmmm.

as a final note, we are not "Satanists" there's a thick black line which separates Atheists and Satanists. Satan's as every bit mythological and non-existent as God to us, and so is Buddha, Brahma, Vishnu, or any other "divine" being for that matter

[This message has been edited by Glock (edited 07-02-2000).]

green grin

whoa, glock! i was just about to reply to your first post when i saw your marvelously researched second, which merit serious attention. i will add to Les's post, but try to meet each point individually in the next few days. i invite the other christians to reply as well to glock's queries. (reply, ha? hindi mob!)

and everyone should keep in mind the essence of ira's and bongnpinoy's message - let's not brand each other evil or good. even the religious people in jesus's time thought that they were doing the will of god.

and finally, remember we can't prove god's existence or non-exsitence on this thread, but merely answering glock's queries.

(*gg goes to dinner before reading the verses*)



[This message has been edited by green grin (edited 07-02-2000).]

Les

As is, I believe a full explanation about Glock's "contradictions" can only be made by someone really well-versed in the Bible. I'm actually seriously considering forwarding this to our pastor. But if ever, that would come much sooner since I'm stuck in the boarding house as of now.

(*Les turns off computer and busies himself with human anatomy* )

ebtg

I'm an atheist. So?

The point is that atheists are no different from ordinary men and women, gays and lesbians, bisexuals and transsexuals.

While I agree with green grin that this thread probably will not prove that "god" either exists or doesn't, it will certainly shed some light on how the two camps (theists and atheists) and those in between (agnostics) think and value logic.

Dayspring1

To start, I would have to agree with Les when he says that Glock should take the verses into context.

Anyway, back to Glock's first post, which is actually very thought-provoking.

"God is the supreme Being, the Creator of the Universe"
I'll have to agree with Les when he says that "the lack of proof (to support the existence of God) cannot be used as proof (to support his non-existence)."

"Atheists are evil, they are anti-religion and do nothing but question God"
No contest. People are prejudiced, and although I personally do not believe in such crap, I know that there are bigots out there who label things they do not understand as evil.

"God Works in Mysterious Ways"
Glock asks why "we are living in an unbalanced world where the do-gooders are often living in cardboard boxes while the scum of society enjoy the finer side of life?" Admittedly, I do not know the answer, but I hope I can spread some light on the situation.

Suffering can bring out the best in people. It sounds ironic, but suffering is what drives other people to do good. There are people who work to alleviate the sufferings of others. I don't know, but I think this is why God allows suffering to continue.

I read a story about a world where there was no suffering. In that world there was no drive to suceed. In another world where only bad/evil people where allowed to suffer, there was indifference to the sufferings of others. In addition, people were labeled as pariahs just because they suffered.

Of course, this story is not necessarily applicable to real life, nor do I claim to be able to completely contest Glock's claim with that story, but I hope it can shed some light on the situation.

One more point, like FarOutFreak, I believe that our faith should not be a blind faith, but rather a thinking faith. Like him I believe that "sincerely questioning the faith, then eventually returning to it, does make one's faith stronger."

For this reason, although I am Catholic, I also wonder why religion forbids us to contest Dogma.

'Til next time (Dayspring1 follows Les' lead and also studies human anatomy )

grounded

Sleepy. Won't make sense.

Faith is believing without needing proof. It goes against logic but it is beautiful in some way.

My friend tells me he's going to help me with something. I don't know if he will, but I have faith in him. (sorry, I’m lost)

The church is not perfect. Study history, count the errors. The church knows it's not perfect and it asks us to help it. (I don't know about that. It's just why a teacher told me. Who knows what he knows?)

I think the church gets really stupid sometimes. It's like a giant scheme.

Most people in the world aren't thinkers. They just follow what other people do. Stupid. There are a lot of Christians. There are a lot of stupid Christians. Not all Christians are stupid.

Someone told me that man has a natural need to look up to a higher being or force. He's not perfect and he looks to the being as perfection.

Atheists aren't evil. They think. Far better than Christians who don't.

Suffering. Other religions say something about suffering. Darn it, I forgot. I realize there is suffering then I think of what is to be done. It happened already. That's life. Why cry over spilt milk? Suffering can be beautiful.

How can a world exist without suffering. Again, there's something with Buddhism about this. Again, I can't remember.

What's my point? Who knows. I believe in a higher force. The church can be really stupid. I appreciate atheists and the likes. I'm very optimistic. (now what does that have to do with this?)

No point. I will get back to my homework now.

brownpau

I was going to come up with a reply to each of Glock's bible contradictions, as each one can be resolved with just a look at the context and a bit of rational thought, but that would take a while to research and type out, and I'm in the office now. Huwag na muna.

Why not take a gander at www.inerrancy.org for some possible answers?

Besides, Scripture doesn't tell us "Believe in the Bible and you shall be saved." It says, "Believe in Jesus, and you shall be saved." All else follows afterwards.

[This message has been edited by brownpau (edited 07-03-2000).]

vctor

try reading the bible and you'll find your questions there. but you must be determined to look for the truth.

God does not want the people to suffer...He wants to test people...If all of us would just be good and try to help others then there would be no suffering.
If you dont want that to happen try helping someone.
GOD works in mysterious ways...
right it is. can you actually tell why there is suffering? Why do you say it comes from God all the time? Why do you keep on blaming God from what we, the people in this planet have done. Why do you seek a scapegoat for our own wrong doings. He had done it before. Because He loves us so much and that is what I beleive in.

Meiji

*Reality? -What is reality?

*You cannot disprove something bec. it cannot be proven that's a fallacy.

*I dont think atheists are evil persons. Everybody is entitled to their own opinions and i respect that.

*I dont know why suffering exists, but i notice that man can cause and causes suffering.

*I dont know either why the church does not allow some teachings or dogmas to be questioned, but am not a believer of the church, I believe in God.

*I dont understand the Bible, but we cannot just dismiss it bec. of its inconsistencies, we didnt write the Bible, the author/s - i dont know, but just as Les pointed out, the Bible should be taken into context. We just can't take them literally bec. there are explanations or there are Bible experts who have authority in the Bible. I haven't read the entire Bible and maybe I won't till I die. It may be said that what's written in the Bible are God's words, but I say, the Bible was written by man who is prone to err. 'Be reminded not to put words into my mouth.'

*In terms of salvation, i believe that the church nor the Bible will save us, it will be God who will save us or our faith.



There's nothing wrong in asking or doubting, who knows that those who doubt now will be in the end, the believers. Judge not so as not to be judged.