Samples of Dcoumented Atheist and Agnostic Morality

[ElCid]

You are still claiming that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is Christian? Yea right! It is that Declaration that supported Feminism that you so feared about. It allowed gays to make ladlad. It demoted Jesus to be just equal with all other gods that need to be all tolerated. It made blasphemy legal under the principles of free speech. In RoT, almost everbody is having fun with blasphemy.

The Declaration is so crucial to atheism such that if you Christians had a role in it, I thank you so very much.

Of course. No less than a pope had a hand in crafting it and a lot of catholic scholars and some protestants and many other theists. What can atheism contribute to an important document like that which deals with morality? Atheism is bankrupt of any kind of moral teaching - you should be aware of that by now. You will have better success of squeezing blood out of a turnip than get a sentence that resembles any kind of moral teaching from ATHEISM.

Now if some people abuse the concepts therein theN it is their own undoing. If a driver rams a car into another - is it the fault of the car manufacturer? I guess not lols.

And you are welcome - in borrowing moral values which is ALIEN AND EXTRINSIC TO ATHEISM .

[Ateo]

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, through its Freedom if Speech provision, will someday eliminate religion. It will kill religion not through violence but through laughter. The UDHR exposes religion as something that we can laugh at; and blasphemy as a powerless threat.

[tonton]

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, through its Freedom if Speech provision, will someday eliminate religion. It will kill religion not through violence but through laughter. The UDHR exposes religion as something that we can laugh at; and blasphemy as a powerless threat.

Just like we do here. We have fun at the expense of other people's baseless illogical beliefs, and rightly so.

[stifbend]

I'd like to open with an admission of my errors. My last paragraph ended in a rather abrupt manner. I should have clarified more on what I thought was your error. Finally, I've noticed that I've left out one critical point that will be addressed here. And as of this post, I will substitute atheistic with secular where it applies.

Again you are not getting it so let me qualify. On the first part you are correct and I have almost said exactly the same thing that: you can't derive any meaningful morality from the statement "God does not exist". So like what I have said - atheism is BANKRUPT OF MORAL TEACHINGS - there is nothing in atheism that can classify an action as good and evil.

I'm not sure if we are on the same page but I'd like to note that I am promoting a stronger position; I hold the position that no morality, absolute or otherwise, can be derived from atheism. This is of course taken from your previous statement. So in fear of beating a dead horse, I think it's safe to say that we agree on this part. Let's just mention it wherever it becomes relevant.

What atheistic morality therefore am I talking about? Like what I have already pointed out - these are moralities contrived by atheists which is 'atheistic' in nature since they don't posit any belief in any deity as the source of this morality as theistic morality does.

This is where I failed to mention my point: either way you cut it, morality with the nature of being atheistic and morality derived from atheism, whatever they may mean, are the same thing. Both hold that there are other sources of morality other than a deity and both do not give meta-ethically satisfying statements in terms of identifying what is good from bad. Thus, I cannot see how you can equate 'atheistic' with 'depraved' which is the error I failed to emphasize(though from what I can piece together from your posts, you are hinting something other than atheism, which will be tackled in the following segment).

Furthermore, you'd have to make a case that
1. Morality that comes from god. And,
2. Only god is the source of morality (or provides sound moral foundation).

What makes these 'atheistic' morality evil? ...Well haven't you seen the effect of these atheistic morality during the 20th century? The possibility of 'inventing' a morality which is depraved like those already mentioned is a possibility and a reality. And it has caused the death and slaughter of hundreds of millions of people since many tyrants from Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Mao, Pol pot etc. have adopted such 'atheistic' morality. SUCH CANNOT BE JUST CONVENIENTLY SWEPT UNDER THE RUG. A case of blind men leading the blind.

I'd like to inquire which ethical position you are endorsing. You seem to take a deontological position (“God is the source of absolute morality”), but prefer to emphasize the moral failures of atheists in a consequentialist manner. So I'd like you to clarify your position: is the atheist's brand of morality evil because it does not adhere to god's commands or is it evil because it has caused great and unnecessary suffering? Or you know, argue for both. This would help me in understanding how you scrutinize morality.

Also, you seem to make this assumption that if a person subscribes to secular morality, he/she “...also subscribes to every negative consequence it remotely implies when carried to absurd extremes” - Jon Stewart. Even if arguendo, these species of morality are proven to be secular and therefore evil, you still have to contend with the fact that there are other species of morality, that are secular, that are hardly evil and are there to keep these evils in check. And those are real too. Ultimately, these are models no theist, atheist, or any person should ever follow. So it would seem that possibility does not grant the claim.

However, an atheist may adopt the same theistic morality sans the belief in the concept of any deity as can be seen in the hypocrites here in PEX lols. As if the same concepts can been derived from their atheism. I will of course introduce more concepts as soon as you reply. This is already lengthy enough of an answer.

I'll add that to your list.

3. Secular morality is rooted, if not entirely lifted from theistic morality, therefore any goodness that result from secular morality must be attributed to the existence of an absolute moral standard (i.e. god).

You've got a lot on your plate ElCid, but feel free to write back with what you think should be addressed in urgency. I welcome your post on these concepts that you would like to discuss.

Finally, if I am not able to reply promptly, this is due to a problem I've been having with LibreOffice. Apparently it seems to crash X or Xorg or whatever is updating my monitor. It's forcing me to write with a text editor. Heck, the last time I made a reply to you, I made that in an IDE, haha.

[stifbend]

Atheists provide charity, not because it is commanded by a god but because it is part of our human nature as social animals. Even elephants help each other; how much more we humans.

The (second) richest persons in the planet - Bill and Melinda Gates - are atheists. They are also the world's biggest donor right now. They also pledged all their wealth to charity when they die.

As for me, I gave the bulk of my charity to UN causes here in NY. On my free time, I volunteer to teach English to undocumented Latino immigrants for free in Queens Library. Actually teachers at Queens Library are paid, but my job does not allow me to receive outside compensation, so I volunteered for free. This is how I now speak Spanish. I used to volunteer for counseling for troubled young people (17 yo or older, not kids )- and I told some people here about it. But it was too stressful for me because troubled kids grew up without love so they tend to cling emotionally to the first caring person they learn to trust - and that's me, the volunteer. I decided that I don't need the complication so I shifted to poor migrants.

For the Philippines, I have been running a high school scholarship with my own money. I have eight scholars now from poor families in mountainous villages of my hometown. And if a couple of them are good enough, I am prepared to send a few to our local college. The scholarship is expanding each year and I have a local coordinator. I have not visited my hometown since we left it for the big city when I was in college and the mayor there is insistent that I should visit them, hehehehe. So if you catch me prostituting myself in New York, Ferdie, it is all for my beloved scholars.

The scholarship contract states that the scholarship can be terminated if I lose or end my US job, so I am sure many families are praying for me, Ferdie.

I sent money to CDO flood, to Ang Ladlad, and to an NGO that distributes condom in Manila. A priest who is a family friend asked me to donate a statue, not knowing that I am already an atheist. My mom begged me for it, so I relented by giving P50,000 for a big statue of the Resurrection. I was told that they put my name on a marker on the statue as donor; what an irony for an atheist!

Now that you asked and I answered, let me also ask you about your charitable work.

Pacheeseburger ka naman.

[Ateo]

Stiffbend, from now on I will rely on you on demolishing ElCid's argument about morality. I wish you would expound your item no. 3 because that is where ElCid and I have interlocked our, er, horns.

As for the cheeseburger, do you want yours double or all in? But, remember the wise saying, "there is no such thing as a free lunch."

[stifbend]

Stiffbend, from now on I will rely on you on demolishing ElCid's argument about morality. I particularly like your item no. 3 because that is where ElCid and I have interlocked our, er, horns.

As for the cheeseburger, do you want your double or all in? But, remember the wise saying, "there is no such thing as a free lunch."

Feel free to jump in. Let's keep the thread lively. To be honest, I may not be able to reply promptly to this thread anyway as I have stated above.

"... but there is such a thing as free beer."

[tonton]

Atheists provide charity, not because it is commanded by a god but because it is part of our human nature as social animals. Even elephants help each other; how much more we humans.

The (second) richest persons in the planet - Bill and Melinda Gates - are atheists. They are also the world's biggest donor right now. They also pledged all their wealth to charity when they die.

As for me, I gave the bulk of my charity to UN causes here in NY. On my free time, I volunteer to teach English to undocumented Latino immigrants for free in Queens Library. Actually teachers at Queens Library are paid, but my job does not allow me to receive outside compensation, so I volunteered for free. This is how I now speak Spanish. I used to volunteer for counseling for troubled young people (17 yo or older, not kids )- and I told some people here about it. But it was too stressful for me because troubled kids grew up without love so they tend to cling emotionally to the first caring person they learn to trust - and that's me, the volunteer. I decided that I don't need the complication so I shifted to poor migrants.

For the Philippines, I have been running a high school scholarship with my own money. I have eight scholars now from poor families in mountainous villages of my hometown. And if a couple of them are good enough, I am prepared to send a few to our local college. The scholarship is expanding each year and I have a local coordinator. I have not visited my hometown since we left it for the big city when I was in college and the mayor there is insistent that I should visit them, hehehehe. So if you catch me prostituting myself in New York, Ferdie, it is all for my beloved scholars.

The scholarship contract states that the scholarship can be terminated if I lose or end my US job, so I am sure many families are praying for me, Ferdie.

I sent money to CDO flood, to Ang Ladlad, and to an NGO that distributes condom in Manila. A priest who is a family friend asked me to donate a statue, not knowing that I am already an atheist. My mom begged me for it, so I relented by giving P50,000 for a big statue of the Resurrection. I was told that they put my name on a marker on the statue as donor; what an irony for an atheist!

Now that you asked and I answered, let me also ask you about your charitable work.

Such altruism. Amen praise the lord Ateo for devoting your time and money to the needy specially the poor undocumented immigrants. Documented is hard too. I know you didn't plan to announce that, but just wanted to drive a point.

Haha.. it's funny that an immoral atheist's name is on a catholic saint's marker!!

[kuroihikari]

Again, pretty good points by stifbend. The reasonable atheist would be the first to admit that yes, there is no morality inherent in atheism: You have to get it somewhere else, but that source may not be a theistic one.

I think the issue here is for non-skeptics, it's difficult to envision the idea that a "good" kind of morality can be developed devoid of the idea of a God. They'd think that even if say an atheist believes in something "Good", then that ultimately leads to a source that is God. The thing is though, some good rules to live by pre-date the modern religions by centuries and even millenia

As for the cheeseburger, do you want yours double or all in? But, remember the wise saying, "there is no such thing as a free lunch."

Why settle for double or all in when you can have KFC Streewise Cheese Top Burger. The only cheese burger baked on top of the burger.

Cheese sa Ibabaw?! OMG!!

This message has been brought to you by KFC Philippines.

[Ateo]

Of course many of what atheists view as moral the RCC view as immoral. RH is the big one. The pro-RH people are not pushing not only because they want to piss off the RCC but because it is a moral thing to do. RH reduces unwanted pregnancy, thus reducing social or economic difficulties and even abortion. RH protects from diseases better than delusionary abstinence. RH educates the people better. So, atheists advocate something not because they are immoral but because they believe it is the moral thing to do.

[marcus_hunt]

Again, pretty good points by stifbend. The reasonable atheist would be the first to admit that yes, there is no morality inherent in atheism: You have to get it somewhere else, but that source may not be a theistic one.

I think the issue here is for non-skeptics, it's difficult to envision the idea that a "good" kind of morality can be developed devoid of the idea of a God. They'd think that even if say an atheist believes in something "Good", then that ultimately leads to a source that is God. The thing is though, some good rules to live by pre-date the modern religions by centuries and even millenia



Why settle for double or all in when you can have KFC Streewise Cheese Top Burger. The only cheese burger baked on top of the burger.

Cheese sa Ibabaw?! OMG!!

This message has been brought to you by KFC Philippines.

Morality predates religion, religion is derived from morality.

[Ateo]

Morality predates religion, religion is derived from morality.

I totally agree. Religion was the means to codify and enforce morality.

[ElCid]

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, through its Freedom if Speech provision, will someday eliminate religion. It will kill religion not through violence but through laughter. The UDHR exposes religion as something that we can laugh at; and blasphemy as a powerless threat.

You must be joking Ateo. The UDHR exemplifies christian teachings. And ironically, it is your claim here that is what's actually funny - Christianity shall never die out since it is from the very start the religion of the oppressed and we do not return insult for insult - such has already been foretold:

11 Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake: 12 Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven. For so they persecuted the prophets that were before you. Matthew 5:11-12


And the blood of the Saints is the seed of the church. The more we are persecuted - the more we survive and multiply. How can we then be destroyed with violence or otherwise?

Atheism on the other hand is the one who will destroy itself as can be seen in atheistic societies like the soviet union which is now seeing revival of the Christian faith. Atheistic ideologies and societies have a history of self-destruction - from the atheist led Republican French Revolution to the atheist Communist regimes of the 20th century. The wolves shall devour each other and the meek shall inherit the earth.

We have the superior ideology. Atheism offers nothing - Christianity offers hope for mankind. That is why there are more atheists committing suicide than christians. Ironically, it is the atheist who would probably die off given enough time. If you don't kill each other you'd probably be killing yourselves all on your own lols.

[marcus_hunt]

I totally agree. Religion was the means to codify and enforce morality.

Can we assume that since we are social animals we developed empathy and thats a good source of morality. Heck even rats according to a study shows empathy. Way before man have a complex system of morality, we have the decision making on beneficial actions or not.

We know taking whats not yours is bad simply because of the repercussions - the owner clubbing you. We knew helping others is good because of the benefits of companionship, again as social animals.

How could man decide between following God or Satan, if we needed the concept of right or wrong from God first?!?

[tonton]

I totally agree. Religion was the means to codify and enforce morality.

NO!!! Religion was the means to brainwash people into submission to power hungry and corrupt leaders!!

If Jesus came back, he would say three words:

WHAT THE F***??!!

and cry/laugh at the amount of time, money, lives and effort man has wasted in religion, whatever its variety.

[Ateo]

You must be joking Ateo. The UDHR exemplifies christian teachings. And ironically, it is your claim here that is what's actually funny - Christianity shall never die out since it is from the very start the religion of the oppressed and we do not return insult for insult - such has already been foretold:

11 Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake: 12 Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven. For so they persecuted the prophets that were before you. Matthew 5:11-12


And the blood of the Saints is the seed of the church. The more we are persecuted - the more we survive and multiply. How can we then be destroyed with violence or otherwise?

Atheism on the other hand is the one who will destroy itself as can be seen in atheistic societies like the soviet union which is now seeing revival of the Christian faith. Atheistic ideologies and societies have a history of self-destruction - from the atheist led Republican French Revolution to the atheist Communist regimes of the 20th century. The wolves shall devour each other and the meek shall inherit the earth.

We have the superior ideology. Atheism offers nothing - Christianity offers hope for mankind. That is why there are more atheists committing suicide than christians. Ironically, it is the atheist who would probably die off given enough time. If you don't kill each other you'd probably be killing yourselves all on your own lols.

Wag kang magpaseguro, ElCid. Zeus/Jupiter was the God of two great civilizations -- the Greeks and the Romans for thousands of years. We even got our word Diyos from Him (pbuh). Zeus-Deus-Dios-Diyos. But his cult crumpled unable to withstand the mocking laughter of people who realized that their Gods were more petty than them humans. Jesus' reign as God is not yet as long as Zeus' reign was. Already, we now realize that this whole Christianity scheme is so hilarious for its multi-thousand varieties, while its main group (RCC) are just a bunch of pedos. No, ElCid, we will not spill your blood/seeds of martyrs. But, we will laugh you out of existence as we sue your priests. In the future, Jesus, just like Zeus to us now, will just be a multiple-choice option for grade-school exam where kids have difficulty remembering if it was Jesus, Mary or Paul who was a virgin, all of the above, or none of the above.

[pastob0b]

talaga lang ha...flourished ba yung ilang years rin nagpapatayan ang mga naniniwala sa Abrahamic religions (Catholics, Protestants, Islam, Judaism, etc)...ang holy bible mismo ay proof na puno ito nang mass murders at mass rape...basahin mo mabuti...malilinawagan ka

lahat po ng ipagutos ng dios ay mabuti. miski mga pagpatay.

[ElCid]

Wag kang magpaseguro, ElCid. Zeus/Jupiter was the God of two great civilizations -- the Greeks and the Romans for thousands of years. We even got our word Diyos from Him (pbuh). Zeus-Deus-Dios-Diyos. But his cult crumpled unable to withstand the mocking laughter of people who realized that their Gods were more petty than them humans. Jesus' reign as God is not yet as long as Zeus' reign was. Already, we now realize that this whole Christianity scheme is so hilarious for its multi-thousand varieties, while its main group (RCC) are just a bunch of pedos. No, ElCid, we will not spill your blood/seeds of martyrs. But, we will laugh you out of existence as we sue your priests. In the future, Jesus, just like Zeus to us now, will just be a multiple-choice option for grade-school exam where kids have difficulty remembering if it was Jesus, Mary or Paul who was a virgin, all of the above, or none of the above.

Wishful thinking on your part Ateo - knock yourself out . Militant atheists already had that on their agenda but they failed. Where are they now? On the contrary, what are we seeing lately? it is not the decline of Christianity but the decline of atheism:

With atheists killing themselves - fact
With atheists killing each other - fact
With Christianity surviving decades of systematic oppression and persecution from atheistic regimes replacing atheism with theism in previously atheistic communist countries - fact

You offer no hope Ateo that's why there are more atheists killing themselves than christians - it's a known fact and the lust for power of atheists in atheistic regimes lead to to killing off their own people in the millions. Christianity survived all that. And like what I've said - the chances of you killing off each other and killing yourselves is statistically higher than christians/catholics becoming irrelevant/nonexistent. lols

Ngayon kung gusto mo umutot kakatawa fine. Walang basagan ng trip. Malayo yan sa bituka

Saka huag ka nga palang magmalinis Ateo - pagsamasamahin mo man ginahasa ng mga kaparian sa loob ng 2000 taon higit pa din yung ginahasa ng mga kagaya mong walang Dios noong nakaraang WWII - 2 milliong kababaihan from ages 8 to 80 nagahasa - unahin mo muna yun idemanda bago yung iba. Huag kang hipocrito at double standard. Nagmagaling ka na naman lols.

[marcus_hunt]

it is not the decline of Christianity but the decline of atheism:

yeah right, kakatapos lang nga nang conference nila sa Manila.

[Ateo]

ElCid, I am referring to secular/godless modern countries like the Scandinavians. Even in the Philippines has increasing number of godless people. You are over-counting your adherents. Even atheists like me, binilang nyo pa rin. Kahit yung mga nasa sabungan sa Linggo ay Katoliko pa rin. Christians are less than 1/3 of the world population and its proportion is fast going down. Mabuti pa ang Islam kahit papaano ay tumataas.