The Dear UP Admin Thread

[curiouser]

Tinopak lang ako today, so here's another experiment.

Just thinking out loud here. Obviously, we can't claim to be the perfect university in this country, but we can certainly argue that we are the leading university in most respects. Having been part of the university's grand legacy of honor and excellence, I'm sure we all have a thing or two to say about how to improve the university.

So, this thread is for us to voice out our concerns, ideas, and feedback about how our beloved alma mater can be improved. Of course, there is no assurance that these will be heeded, but I suspect that there are people who read this forum (both members and lurkers) who actually are in a position to influence decisions.

A caveat: Note that some of the suggestions here may be done out of ignorance, so should there be contrary opinions, please be considerate enough to explain the facts, instead of just merely pointing out that the suggestion is wrong.

I'll start.

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Dear UP Admin,

It probably isn't news that some departments in units in UP Diliman offer subjects that may be considered the "specialization" of other units. For example, one unit may offer Math subjects to its students under its department, when this would probably be the purview of the Institute of Mathematics. My suggestion is o house the faculty/subjects in just one unit to assure that there is a clear steer and direction for how these subjects are taught.

My reasons:

• Redundancy - To my uninformed mind, there seems to be redundancy (e.g. human, and possibly economic resources) in having multiple departments in different units offering the same subjects.

• Specialization - Having pockets of knowledge across multiple units doesn't help to "standardize" the kind of education that is offered. I think it compromises our ability to develop "centers of excellence."

Some disclaimers on this suggestion:

• Yes, I know that academic freedom is paramount in UP. But, this may be bordering on ridiculous if there isn't some semblance of structure to it.

• I don't know if these pockets of knowledge actually (regularly) network with each other/the "expert" unit. I suspect they may not, but in case they do, then the concern is more about the steer/direction of the subject matter. The "expert" unit should have at least an oversight over how the subject is taught, in my view.

That's all I can think of, for now. I'll post again should I have more (hopefully bright) ideas.

[kelunji]

^Could you cite some specific examples where a Math subject is being taught by another department and not the Institute of Mathematics? Are you referring to Stat, Engg or Physics? AFAIK major subjects na ang tinuturo diyan, and while there is mathematics involved, they are now being taught in the context of actual real world/field examples.

[curiouser]

^Math is just one example. I heard that there are certain departments in Eng'g for example that offer Math outside of the Institute of Mathematics. There are other subjects that cross departments in Eng'g. Another example is Accounting, which is offered outside of CBA.

[kelunji]

^Ah ok, meron talagang ganyan. Pero yun nga, in actuality yung subject is tailor-made for those who are majoring in that specific course. And usually di basta-basta pwede kumuha ng subject na yun w/o first passing the prerequisite subject. For example major BS Chemical engg subjects are different from those who are taking up BS Chem, although both majors have to start their early chem subjects together.

Another example is Geol 181 or Geophysics. Sa pangalan pa lang iisipin mo na dapat Institute of Physics yan, pero the subject is a Geology major subject. It is the study of the physics of the Earth and its environment. It specifically deals with the application of quantitative physical methods in its study, e.g application of electricity, magnetics, of wave theory, etc.

[curiouser]

^I understand where you're coming from. There are indeed specialized subjects that cater to a specific course/discipline. I do not expect those to be taken away from the respective departments that offer them now.

What I'm referring to are subjects that are broader, and not necessarily tailor-made to a specific course/discipline.

In the case of the Math instance I referred to, I was told, that that subject is offered in the Institute of Mathematics, but for some reason, it wasn't available, so the Eng'g unit decided to offer it themselves.

In the case of Accounting, I am told that the people who teach Accounting in other colleges outside CBA are not necessarily graduates of the colleges where they teach (so they won't be able to necessarily "tailor-fit" the course outline to that discipline's particular needs).

I hope that clarifies where I'm coming from.

[kelunji]

^pero kahit hindi naman sila graduate ng college, basta yung syllabus/subject matter ng subject eh sinusunod naman nila, I see no problem in that. Another example I can give is yung mga subject sa Educ. May mga science-related subjects sila doon, pero tailor-made for future teachers, i.e. how to actually teach the science of say mathematics rather than just mathematics itself. meron din Accounting for Public Ad majors, meron din sa geology, statistical methods in geology (prereq Stat 101) at computer programming for physics majors.

yung sa math at engg, baka tinigil na ng IM dahil, masyadong specific ang subject at lack of enrollees (na specific department of engg lang ang may kailangan), plus kulang din yung mga expert sa IM itself, and instead mas marami sa CoE.

[curiouser]

^Pero, that's the crux of my point isn't it?

I don't know how Educ functions, so I'll leave that out.

Instead, let's take on Accounting for Public Ad majors. I know that Public Ad offers the course in NCPAG itself, directly (the same goes with AIT, CHE, and I believe, in the future, even SE). My friend says he doesn't think that the curriculum is in any way different between Public Ad and AIT, CHE, or possibly, CBA. I'm not even sure if you can choose to enroll yourself in Accounting in NCPAG if you're not from NCPAG. Chances are, you can. Anyway, Accounting as a field is dynamic, and there are changes to standards on a regular basis. If you get somebody who isn't connected to the perceived "center of excellence" in this area (i.e. CBA), how can you be so sure that they are teaching the most updated items?

In the Math/Eng'g case, we are not in any position to actually determine the reasons. What is important to note is that, in other semesters, IM actually offered the same class, and people of that Eng'g department were able to enroll in that class offered by IM. That tells me that there is no "lack" of experts in IM.

That would be like the CoE Department of Chem Eng'g offering the Chem series (16, 17, etc.) as an option to their students, even though CS Institute of Chemistry already offers them.

[kelunji]

Could it be that this Engg "Math" is so high level/so niche that only that particular Engg department requires it? Baka para lang sa kanila yan, and so IM decided to abandon it and leave the handling to CoE?

Tingin ko yang sa NCPAG na Acctg, hindi yan equivalent sa any other Acctg subject na ino-offer sa CBA. Its another one of those tailor-fit for Public Ad majors (perhaps not even requiring pre-reqs in CBA, IM and NCPAG). CBA maybe the center for excellence in accounting, but not on Public Ad. Like I said, huwag natin tingnan based on subject title, instead look at the whole course outline/syllabus. Maraming misleading subject titles sa UP.

[curiouser]

^Here are the facts for you:

1 - Said Math course was being offered by IM even after the said semester. In fact, students of the Eng'g department could choose to get the course in IM.

2 - My friend knows who teaches Accounting in NCPAG. As far as he knows, there is nothing different in the curriculum that gears it towards Public Ad students. In fact, you could say he could be teaching the exact same course under the auspices of CBA.

[huntfan01]

Dear UP Admin,

Sana damihan nyo ang ina-admit nyong maganda at gwapo sa UP. For inspiration purposes, thanks.

Regards,
Huntfan

echos!

[kelunji]

^Here are the facts for you:

1 - Said Math course was being offered by IM even after the said semester. In fact, students of the Eng'g department could choose to get the course in IM.

2 - My friend knows who teaches Accounting in NCPAG. As far as he knows, there is nothing different in the curriculum that gears it towards Public Ad students. In fact, you could say he could be teaching the exact same course under the auspices of CBA.

1) Like I said, its probably so niche (probably even an elective) that only those from that engg department take that course so IM allows CoE to conduct it. If you can, post the name of this math subject and post the a link to its syllabus.

2) Ask your friend why CBA does not offer it themselves? The answer probably is it is superseded by other more advanced subjects and CBA students will find it trite and basic. BTW is your friend a CPA by any chance? Assuming professional CPA group operates under the same rules as any other PRC group, only a licensed professional may teach a subject to which he/she is licensed in. Example only a licensed civil engineer may teach a civil engg course.

I think these issues are minor and are probably already been cleared with Quezon Hall. Hindi lang tayo privy sa mga reasons nila.

[xctrekker]

Ganyan na ba ngayon? Back during our time, all Math subjects for Engg were taught at the A.S. (ex. the calculus series of Math 53, 54, 55). They are taught there because they are what you'll need when you take up Engg-specific subjects later on.

Sa Engg, you take up E.S. and subjects related to your specific field (ME subjects kung ME ka, EE subjects kung EE, etc.). Then there are a few subjects from other fields that everyone has to take regardless of field (ex. basic EE, Thermodynamics, etc.). The bottom line is that almost all them involve/use Math that you were taught in A.S.

[kelunji]

^Ganyan pa rin naman. Its just that colleges offer certain subjects that would at first glance especially to outsiders (and perhaps even to those who major in it, but have not seen it from the POV of the other side), appear similar to each other.

In Geology there is a subject called Geomorphology wherein we are taught to use photogrammetry techniques, even though the only geodetic engg subject we took is GE 11 and we were never taught photogrammetry there.

[curiouser]

1) Like I said, its probably so niche (probably even an elective) that only those from that engg department take that course so IM allows CoE to conduct it. If you can, post the name of this math subject and post the a link to its syllabus.

2) Ask your friend why CBA does not offer it themselves? The answer probably is it is superseded by other more advanced subjects and CBA students will find it trite and basic. BTW is your friend a CPA by any chance? Assuming professional CPA group operates under the same rules as any other PRC group, only a licensed professional may teach a subject to which he/she is licensed in. Example only a licensed civil engineer may teach a civil engg course.

I think these issues are minor and are probably already been cleared with Quezon Hall. Hindi lang tayo privy sa mga reasons nila.

While they are "minor", they don't necessarily answer my earlier points, do they? Redundancy and standardization. Siguro, masyado lang akong immersed in the private corporate world that I find government bureaucracy a disappointment.

1 - I'd rather that some other PExer post the Math item.

2 - I know two people who teach Accounting I in two different units in the university outside of UP CBA. They honestly don't know why UP CBA doesn't offer it. Somebody who used to be in registration in UP CBA said that, historically, these subjects were taught by UP CBA to students of other units. Why these were farmed out into the other colleges, I can only posit conjecture (though I daresay UP unit politics is an issue). This becomes even more pronounced when I hear that the SE is planning to offer BA subjects based in UP SE, and not UP CBA. Do you see where this becomes even more ridiculous?

Another point to consider is that I don't think it's an issue outside of UPD. I could be wrong.

Also, to answer kelunji's later post, the mere fact that IM can offer the subject during the same semester as the other department, and that students of that unit can take the subject in IM is frankly, not efficient (again, standardization and redundancy). This means that there is no "specialization" whatsoever because you are free to take the subject in IM. Also, the people who teach Accounting I (who are both UP CBA alumni) acknowledge that there is nothing that they teach that would customize the subject to their unit, aside from, maybe, examples. My view is, they can still teach it out of UP CBA, but maybe they can allot specific sections to students from these other units. Again, this rebuts any assertion that these are "specialized" to accommodate a specific unit. Note that my examples and points pertain to lower-order classes, and not higher-level majors, as kelunji cites in his examples. Obviously, I would not expect the UP units to take away specialized stat courses and the like if they are already very specific to their majors.

[curiouser]

Dear UP Admin,

Sana damihan nyo ang ina-admit nyong maganda at gwapo sa UP. For inspiration purposes, thanks.

Regards,
Huntfan

echos!

Huntie, paano naman nila gagawin to? May kasamang 2x2 picture sa UPCAT form? Paano naman kung photoshopped lang pala? At malamang, kailangan ng judge of beauty. Pwede kaya mag-apply bilang screening committee?

[kelunji]

While they are "minor", they don't necessarily answer my earlier points, do they? Redundancy and standardization. Siguro, masyado lang akong immersed in the private corporate world that I find government bureaucracy a disappointment.

1 - I'd rather that some other PExer post the Math item.

2 - I know two people who teach Accounting I in two different units in the university outside of UP CBA. They honestly don't know why UP CBA doesn't offer it. Somebody who used to be in registration in UP CBA said that, historically, these subjects were taught by UP CBA to students of other units. Why these were farmed out into the other colleges, I can only posit conjecture (though I daresay UP unit politics is an issue). This becomes even more pronounced when I hear that the SE is planning to offer BA subjects based in UP SE, and not UP CBA. Do you see where this becomes even more ridiculous?

Another point to consider is that I don't think it's an issue outside of UPD. I could be wrong.

Also, to answer kelunji's later post, the mere fact that IM can offer the subject during the same semester as the other department, and that students of that unit can take the subject in IM is frankly, not efficient (again, standardization and redundancy). This means that there is no "specialization" whatsoever because you are free to take the subject in IM. Also, the people who teach Accounting I (who are both UP CBA alumni) acknowledge that there is nothing that they teach that would customize the subject to their unit, aside from, maybe, examples. My view is, they can still teach it out of UP CBA, but maybe they can allot specific sections to students from these other units. Again, this rebuts any assertion that these are "specialized" to accommodate a specific unit. Note that my examples and points pertain to lower-order classes, and not higher-level majors, as kelunji cites in his examples. Obviously, I would not expect the UP units to take away specialized stat courses and the like if they are already very specific to their majors.

Post mo na kung alam mo yung subject na yan. Ako nagbibigay ako ng specific examples, otherwise baka hearsay yan . W/o really looking at the course description we can never really tell why NCPAG and CoE are offering those courses instead of CS and CBA. Tingin ko rin, waste of resources kung mag-a-allot pa ang CBA ng instructors at rooms for students na 3-4 lang naman. Ditto for IM. Yung Math 53 ko noon, ang room namin nasa MSI and yung 54 naman nasa CRS building.

[curiouser]

Well, I know some of the person(s) involved personally. I know it's an issue. They agree. For me it's enough to have established a point. I can't give you the course descriptions, but again, it's really for the UP Admin to decide if it's an issue, isn't it? My intention here is to call attention to something, which I think is a valid concern.

Just to re-emphasize: I clarified that my concern was for lower-order subjects. These are important because they form the fundamentals of your majors. Your examples are all about higher-order majors. Obviously, these are different things altogether.

Obviously, class size is going to be a consideration. Not even NCPAG will offer a class just for 3-4 students.

And I don't get your point about classrooms, either. It's about administering the subject, and not about where the classes are located. Using your examples, if your classes were in MIS and/or CRS, who taught your Math classes? Was it your department, or somebody from IM? If it's somebody from IM, then class location isn't an issue. If it's somebody from your department, that proves my point. It should be somebody from IM.

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Anyway, I'd like to take this time to welcome any other items/suggestions/feedback for the UP Admin. Let's try to have more engaged discussions about how to better improve UP.

[reshiram]

Huntie, paano naman nila gagawin to? May kasamang 2x2 picture sa UPCAT form? Paano naman kung photoshopped lang pala? At malamang, kailangan ng judge of beauty. Pwede kaya mag-apply bilang screening committee?

Meron naman ah? In fact, we were required to submit 4 of them. Ewan ko na lang kung may extra factor yun sa UPG namin. haha..

[curiouser]

Meron naman ah? In fact, we were required to submit 4 of them. Ewan ko na lang kung may extra factor yun sa UPG namin. haha..

Umamin ka. Naka-photoshop ang picture mo no?

[kelunji]

^They will if it was a major subject. Some major subjects are held in the room of the faculty member, especially if its just less than 5. And yes it was indeed conducted by instructors and professors from IM, but rooms were no longer available at IM so we got farmed out to nearby buildings. Even our instructor was reluctant to take on the class as he was already overloaded (UP is still a public institution, unlike the private corporate world where you can fix any shortage by just buying more office space or hiring more staff).

By low you mean its a Math series/GE Math subject? Math 1, 11, 14, 17, 53-55, 100? Other than those, special/high level Math subject yan. A low suffix number is not an indication of a low-level Math subject FYI. There are esoteric Math subjects in between Math 11 and 17.