[MERGED] Philippines vs. China and the Spratlys Situation

[markfroilan]

^Sir post ko lang dito iyung pic mo sa kabila about philip philips

Ayan, para may justification naman itong thread na ito sa LaFI.

[HeartedHand]

A solemn Memorial Day on the 28th for my gandparents Melencio Manongdo of the IWOJIMA RAID and Badoy Baer of the CABANATUAN RAID.


Also remembering another military contributions of a combat intelligence officer of the 21st Infantry Division and a great leader FERDINAND MARCOS.

[pilotmarker]

Thanks for the clarification guys.

Here's a good news:

"MANILA, Philippines—As the country’s territorial dispute with China over the Scarborough Shoal in the West Philippine Sea entered its seventh week, Japan is set to send three of its naval ships on a five-day goodwill visit to Manila.

The Philippine Navy announced Friday that three vessels from the Japanese Training Squadron of the Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Force will arrive in Manila Bay on May 28.

The JS Kashima (TV-3508), JS Shimayuki (TV-3513) and JS Matsuyuki (DD-130) will be in the country until June 1 for a series of goodwill activities with the Philippine Navy and some government agencies. The squadron will be headed by Rear Admiral Hidetoshi Fuchinoue, the Philippine Navy said.

Foreign Secretary Albert Del Rosario has said that Japan would likely provide the country with 10 40-meter patrol boats under its official development aid and two larger ones as grants.

The Philippine Coast Guard also expects to acquire 10 brand-new patrol ships from Japan within the year.

The goodwill visit comes amid the Philippines’ territorial dispute with China that started when two Chinese maritime ships prevented a Philippine Navy ship from apprehending Chinese poachers last April 10.

As of Tuesday this week, China has deployed five maritime ships, 16 fishing boats and 56 dinghies that apparently continued to fish and gather endangered marine resources in the Panatag shoal despite China’s fishing ban."

http://globalnation.inquirer.net/379...goodwill-visit


A refreshing expectation. I hope more friendly nations come for a visit too. How about Russia, India, and the rest of Europe? Saturate it. We are ONE. We are GLOBAL.

Anyway, it seems China is still in its medieval ways after being shut to the world for many decades. We live in a global society already for goodness sake. The days of imperial conquest should be gone by now. China is still living in the swords, bows, and arrows era.

[HeartedHand]

< All coming from both sides >

[andresbonifacio2]

Reading the China Wiki link, it states:

"The composition and scope of the Philippine territory are set by a series of international treaties, none of which involves Huangyan Island or includes the island into the Philippine territorial land.

The Treaty of Paris (1898), The Treaty of Washington (1900) and the Treaty between Great Britain and the United States (1930) state clearly that the west limit of the Philippine territory is 118 degrees east longitude, while Huangyan Island -- with coordinates 15 degrees and 8 minutes to 15 degrees and 14 minutes north latitude, 117 degrees and 44 minutes to 117 degrees and 48 minutes east longitude -- is obviously outside this limit."

There are already 3 treaties signed. How come the Philippine government would not recognize this, instead recognize UNCLOS? Under UNCLOS, it allows coastal states to claim a 200-nautical-mile Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ). It looks to me that whoever drafted UNCLOS did not recognize the 3 treaties.

It is UNCLOS which made things so conflicting. If these 3 treaties were true, then, the government should honor it. I don't think the China claim is based mainly on historical, but, also, the treaties.

Or, is the China Wiki lying? Please care to explain to those who are well versed in this case. Thanks.

pilotmarker are you a Beijing sympathizer?

All you have to do is to look at a standard globe or map to see how far from China these claims are.

China has practically made enemies for almost every country around it.

[andresbonifacio2]

China is making a lot of enemies.

Early this quarter, against India when the they successfully made another ballistic missile.

Vietnam accuses China in seas dispute
Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13592508

[Jspice]

Tokyo Governor Ishihara Shintaro recently suggested paying money to buy the Diaoyu Islands [aka Senkaku Islands]. [Former Taiwanese President] Lee Teng-hui said Ishihara did not make clear who the islands would be purchased from and is a bad politician. Lee Teng-hui has many times stated that the Diaoyu Islands are Japanese property and that Japan should not yield [on the matter]. Lee Teng-hui expressed that the ancient documents that the mainland cites to advocate its sovereignty over the Diaoyu Islands is not sufficient basis in international law.


Just saw it

[pilotmarker]

Just read:

While Chinese rarely express an open desire for imperialist expansion, an ideological sense of the inevitability of such expansion is a hidden part of national political consciousness. Rather than being self-admitted expansionists, Chinese expansion is instead expressed by characterizing foreign nations as "part of China" which must one day be reconquered and brought into the fold of the motherland to redress the historic injustices of foreign domination by restoring territorial integrity. The fact that these Asian nations are not part of the People's Republic of China (PRC), as they are supposed to be, is yet further ammunition for a sense of national grievance and humiliation. Press university students on the matter and one will quite easily be told that not only Taiwan and Tibet, but Mongolia, the Koreas, much or all of South-East Asia, Japan and most of the Philippines are somehow "part of China." The argument relies on obscure racial and cultural connections that somehow make these independent nations part of a larger Han empire that - while never having existed in the past as a national entity and, even on a cultural level, has no basis in linguistic and genetic links - must one day be re-established for Chinese dignity and territorial integrity. So, while Chinese will say that China is a "peaceful country" which does not have imperialist aims, such peace and nonaggression is contingent upon the restoration of the territorial integrity of an imagined (Han) Chinese empire that would consume a significant amount of the nations surrounding the PRC. I learned of this while discussing Chinese history with some students, who, after vigorously extolling the truth of what they were taught, then insisted they were "not nationalists," since such desire for "reintegration" is a return to an (imagined) historic norm rather than a national expansion into new territory.

http://www.chariweb.com/2012/02/chin...an-rights.html

[jam007]

As of 5/26/2012;

US Navy warship visits Hong Kong
"Routine" visit by USS Makin Island seen as a show of force amid rising tensions in South China Sea.
Last Modified: 26 May 2012 08:24

A US Navy assault ship has sailed into Hong Kong harbour for a visit described as routine amid rising regional tensions.

The captain of the USS Makin Island, which carries columns of tanks and attack helicopters, said he was ready to "ensure peace in the region" if necessary amid a dispute between China and the Philippines over the resource-rich Scarborough Shoal islands.

Dozens of US Navy ships visit Hong Kong every year, according to a press release on the US 7th Fleet website. But the latest visit was seen by some analysts as a show of force as the country tries to expand its Asia-Pacific influence.

Rob McBride reports from Hong Kong.

Link http://www.aljazeera.com/video/asia-...928666838.html

[wilqt]

guys panoorin ninyo itong interview sa isang chinese http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMmfL...eature=related. Sinasabi niya may interes ang pamilyang Aquino sa mga isla dahil sa oil reserve.

[fOKER pACE]

guys panoorin ninyo itong interview sa isang chinese http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMmfL...eature=related. Sinasabi niya may interes ang pamilyang Aquino sa mga isla dahil sa oil reserve.

Magandang STARTING TOPIC ITO! Sa China na Mismo nanggaling na ang PAMILYANG AQUINO ang talagang may interes na pagkakitaan ang Langis sa Panatag Shoal!

YUng sinasabi nayng daang matuwid, Para lang sa interes ng Aquino-Cojuanco Family! P*+@ng INA MO ABNOY!!!!

[Kinshinar]

^ such a fool to easily believe a statement from a Chinese...

[albert_sy2]

Why does the media call it a stalemate and standoff? It's neither!

[Archimedes]

guys panoorin ninyo itong interview sa isang chinese http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMmfL...eature=related. Sinasabi niya may interes ang pamilyang Aquino sa mga isla dahil sa oil reserve.

Lol not suprised at all. I also remember about the Marcos family members saying that during the Cory Aquino years, Ferdinand Marcos wanted to return 95% of his ill-gotten wealth and just retain the remaining 5% for his family's needs in exchange that he would be allowed to return to the Philippines. The relatives of Cory Cojuangco flew to Hawaii and told the ousted president to entrust most of the money to the relatives in exchange for his return, which of course was rejected by the ex-president since the money won't go back to the filipino people...

[utaktalangka]

China is very much well on its way towards world domination. Its greatest ambition and desire is to surpass the United States as THE world power. They know it will take some time but they don't mind. Because they know that when they become the ultimate ruler, no one else will dare challenge them.

The US owes China a lot of money. Lots and lots of money. When China starts collecting the debt, there is nothing the US can do but to acquiesce to China's every whim and folly.

[Firenzi]

The South China Sea in Southeast Asia is bordered by 7 countries: China, Taiwan, the Philippines, Brunei, Indonesia, Malaysia and Vietnam. The name of that water, like others such as Gulf of Mexico, Indian Ocean, Arabian Sea, Persian Gulf, Gulf of Thailand, Philippines Sea, East China Sea and Sea of Japan, do not imply any notion of sovereignty because they were invented for convenience by European explorers.

In the South China Sea, there are three islands groups – Paracel islands, Spratly islands and Scarborough shoal – which are not permanently inhabited because the islands are small and do not have dependable fresh water. Some man-made objects have been found on some of them, indicating transient human presence, because since prehistory, fishermen, merchants and pirates from various countries built temporary shelter on them. Because those islands cannot support permanent human habitation, various national governments in the area recently had to build superstructures on them, as on Okinotori (a Japanese islet in the Pacific Ocean), to support human habitation.

China claimed sovereignty over 90% of the water and all the islands in the South China Sea by drawing a nine-dash line covering 90% of that sea, prompting her neighbors to protest that her claim contradicts international law, specifically the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS).

UNCLOS gave a coastal nation or an inhabited island an exclusive economic zone (EEZ) of 200 miles from the baseline (shoreline at low tide) in which the coastal nation or the inhabited island has the exclusive right to exploit natural resources. China’s nine-dash claim extends beyond her EEZ, biting into the EEZs of her neighbors. Also, UNCLOS said that rocks on the sea that cannot support human habitation and do not have economic life of their own cannot have EEZ. By UNCLOS definition, the South China Sea islands cannot have EEZ because they cannot support permanent human habitation on their own. Only China argued that they have EEZs, a hypocritical argument because in the dispute about Okinotori, China had argued that Okinotori cannot have EEZ because Okinotori cannot support human habitation on its own. As the Paracel islands lie halfway between China and Vietnam while Spratly islands and Scarborough shoal lie within the EEZs of China’s neighbors, China argued that those islands have EEZs simultaneously with claiming sovereignty over all the islands in order to maximize China’s EEZ at the expense of her neighbors.

China justified her exaggerated claim on the South China Sea by arguing that ancient Chinese texts mentioned certain islands in the South China Sea, proving that Chinese people were the first to navigate that sea and the first to discover the islands in the area, that China was the first country to exercise jurisdiction over the islands and that the South China Sea was China’s historic water. China further argued that in 1947, when China published a map of that sea with an eleven-dash line (predecessor of the nine-dash line), nobody protested, proving that the world had accepted China’s claim. However, close examination shows that China’s arguments are baseless.



First, in 1947, the world did not react to the map of the South China Sea with the eleven-dash line because the world ignored that map. That map carried as much legal weight as the traditional Chinese political thought which said that the world (All-under-heaven) is under the authority of Chinese emperors. Can China argue that the world had accept China’s sovereignty over the world because nobody protested when the Chinese emperors declared that the world is under their authority ? .

Second, countries that had historical border with the Arctic Ocean formed the Arctic Council to divide the Arctic natural resources according to the rules of UNCLOS. China never had any historical border with the Arctic Ocean, yet China asked to join the Arctic Council in order to have a share of Arctic natural rersources, arguing that the Arctic Ocean is a “common heritage for all of humankind”. If the Arctic Ocean is a “common heritage for all of humankind”, then the South China Sea is a common heritage for all the peoples who live on its shores, not only for China.

Third, peoples of the Austronesian language family, more specifically the Malayo-Polynesian branch, were the first to navigate the South China Sea. Their original homelands were Southern China or Taiwan. Between 5000-2500 BC, they crossed the South China Sea to populate the Philippines, Indonesia and Malaysia. From Southeast Asia, they crossed the Pacific Ocean to populate Melanesia and Micronesia by 1200 BC, Polynesia by 1000 BC, Easter Island by 300 AD, Hawaii by 400 AD and New Zealand by 800 AD. They also crossed the Indian Ocean to populate Madagascar by 0-500 AD. The Indo-Pacific maritime space, including the South China Sea, was their historic water. Since the Austronesian peoples (ancestors of the Filipinos, Indonesians and Malaysians) were the first to navigate the South China Sea, they were the first to discover the islands in the area and to fish in the associated waters. Though they did not invent writing to record their discovery, it would be ludicrous to deny their discovery of the islands so close to the Philippines and Indonesia in light of the fact that they were able to discover the various islands in the vast Pacific Ocean. By the way, they have been displaced or reduced to aboriginal minority status in their original homelands.

Fourth, the South China Sea has always been an international waterway since prehistory. Indian traders navigated that sea early in prehistory, introducing Indian philosophies to Southeast Asia, leading to the formation of many Indianised states on Islands Southeast Asia in ancient time. One of those states was Srivijaya, located on Indonesia in the 7th century and exercised prominent maritime activities in the South China Sea. During ancient time, the influence of Chinese civilization on Southeast Asia was limited to Vietnam whereas the influence of Indian civilization was dominant throughout Islands Southeast Asia, indicating Indian traders were very active in the South China Sea. Persian and Arab traders also navigated that sea, introducing Islam to Indonesia and the Philippines. The Arabs even settled in Guangzhou during the 7th century. A 7th-century Chinese monk, I-Tsing, went pilgrimage to India by embarking at Guangzhou on a Persian ship, stopped over at Srivijaya before continued onto India.

Fifth, even if Chinese people were the first to navigate the South China Sea (not true), China cannot claim sovereignty over the water that is used by many other countries. The Philippines, Indonesia and Malaysia do not claim sovereignty over the South China Sea, the Indian Ocean and the Pacific Ocean even though their Austronesian ancestors were the first to navigate those waters. Norway does not claim sovereignty over the Norwegian Sea even though the Norsemen (Vikings) were the first to navigate that water to populate Iceland and Greenland in the 9th century. Portugal does not claim sovereignty over the water off the West African coast, the water around the Cape of Good Hope and the Indian Ocean even though Portuguese under Bartolomeu Diaz and Vasco da Gama were the first to navigate those waters in 1488 and 1498. Spain does not claim sovereignty over the Atlantic Ocean, the Magellan Strait and the Pacific Ocean even though Spaniards under Christopher Columbus and Ferdinand Magellan were the first to navigate those waters in 1492 and 1521. Russia does not claim sovereignty over the Bering Sea even though Russians under Vitus Bering were the first to navigate that water in 1741.

Sixth, ancient Chinese texts which mention the South China Sea islands do not describe discovery of the islands but only describe general knowledge about the islands, knowledge shared among the fishermen, merchants and pirates from various countries who navigated that sea since prehistory. Chinese writers were the first to write about the South China Sea islands because China invented writing earlier, not because Chinese people were the first to navigate that sea or the first to discover the islands. This principle is illustrated by the Sea of Japan and the Black Sea.

Japan first appeared in written records in 57 AD in China’s Book of the Later Han as followed: “Across the sea from Lelang were the people of Wa”. Lelang was a Han Empire’s military outpost in Korea and Wa referred to Japan. The sea between Lelang and Wa is now known as Sea of Japan. Chinese writers were the first to write about Japan and Sea of Japan because China invented writing early, not because Chinese people were the first to navigate the Sea of Japan or the first to discover Japan. Korean and Japanese peoples lived by the Sea of Japan since prehistory and sailed into that sea to fish and to trade with each other, and knew about the existence of each others since prehistory, long before Chinese writers wrote about Japan and Sea of Japan.

The Black Sea first appeared in written records in 5th century BC in the writing of the Greek poet Pindar as “Pontos Axeinos”. By the 5th century BC, the Greeks had established many colonies by the Black Sea. Greek writers were the first to write about the Black Sea because Greece invented writing early, not because Greeks were the first to discover or the first to navigate the Black Sea. There were other peoples who lived by the Black Sea alongside with the Greeks and had sailed into that water to fish and to trade since prehistory, even though they did not invent writing to write about that. The Black Sea, like the South China Sea, is a common heritage for all the peoples who live on its shores.

Seventh, ancient Chinese texts which mention the South China Sea islands mention those islands as foreign lands, not as China’s territories, and do not describe which activities the authority of ancient China exercised on the islands. Therefore, there is no proof of China’s jurisdiction over the islands. In the case of Scarborough shoal, China argued that Kublai Khan’s officials were the first to map out and to establish jurisdiction over those islands in 1279. However, Kublai Khan was the Great Khan of the Mongol Empire who conquered China. If any country can inherit Scarborough shoal from Kublai Khan, it is Mongolia, not China.

In 1279, Kublai Khan’s officials neither “discovered” nor “established jurisdiction” over Scarborough shoal because that place was already the historic water and traditional fishing ground of Filipino fishermen, descendants of the Austronesian sailors who navigated the South China Sea and populated the Philippines in 5000-2500 BC. Scarborough shoal was known as “bajio de Masinloc”, meaning shoal of Masinloc, in a Spanish-made map of the Philippines in 1734. Masinloc is not a Spanish word and is the name of a municipality on the Philippines’ main island, confirming that Filipino fishermen had been to and had named the islands after their own tongue for centuries.

Eighth, official maps of the Yuan Dynasty and Ching Dynasty, including but not limited to Da Qing Zhi Sheng Quan Tu (published in 1862) and Huang Chao Yi Tong Yu Di Zen Du (published in 1894), show that the southernmost extent of China ends at Hainan islands (see below).

Finally, the Chinese empire originated on the Yellow river basin and eventually conquered many lands and peoples, including Tibet and Sinkiang, which is why China is a multiethnic, multi-languages country. At the time when China allegedly discovered the South China Sea islands, China’s border on the mainland was not what it is today, Tibet and Sinkiang were independent countries of the Tibetans and the Uyghurs, respectively. The Tibetans and the Uyghurs are demanding self-determination. Three dozens Tibetan monks have burned themselves to death to draw attention of humanity to the sufferings of their people under China’s rule. If China is serious about its historical claim, it should return to its historical border on the mainland, return Tibet and Sinkiang to the Tibetans and the Uyghurs, respectively.

China knows that her arguments for claiming sovereignty over the South China Sea and all the islands in that water are baseless, which is why China refused the Philippines’ invitation to submit the dispute to an international court.

http://www.eurasiareview.com/2405201...sh-claim-oped/

[MissFugliness]

Someone made a post in chinese sites asking chinese netizen asking: If China and the Philippines were really to go to war and you would be sent to the front line, what could you do with your professional skills? There were all kinds of replies. Then came a chihuo and everything became quiet: Eat up all their food!

[Firenzi]

China's aggresion in Scarborough Shoal

http://jibraelangel2blog.blogspot.co...resion-in.html

[andresbonifacio2]

Someone made a post in chinese sites asking chinese netizen asking: If China and the Philippines were really to go to war and you would be sent to the front line, what could you do with your professional skills? There were all kinds of replies. Then came a chihuo and everything became quiet: Eat up all their food!

Not only that.

Chinese netizens are also fond of joking, "Let us just spit all at once and drown the Philippines."

That is why I don't like our own President Aquino always joking that "In a boxing match, the Philippines will get beaten by a billion Chinese."

Our own commander-in-chief is the chief morale extinguisher. Apparently he does not know that as an island nation we are a natural fortress. I bet if the Chinese 1 billion will swim across the West Philippine Sea more than half of them will not make it through.

[eaglemania]

Didn't China discover America too. I'm pretty sure there was a documentary on nat geo before so where are their ancient maps for that.

The Philippines has two options with China. Either give in to China and continue to let China trample all over us and eventually turn the Philippines into another Tibet, or we take a tough line and stand our ground and beg for assistance from other countries like the Syrian rebels and hope the USA backs us up. Many western nations don't like China but they are forced to deal with them cuz of the economic recession.

All it takes is a little spark and we start world war 3.