[MERGED] Philippines vs. China and the Spratlys Situation

[b_9904]

nobody wants war...


Philippines, China Commit to Diplomacy

nobody wants war pero lahat bully sa neighbor nila which may trigger a war

[xctrekker]

Just 10km off Xiamen's coast are the Kinmen islands which are administered by Taiwan. Using a telescope from our excursion boat, I saw that the islands were heavily fortified with bunkers and gun emplacements. China has not tried invading them all these decades.

They know Taiwan is well-armed and protected by the US. Obviously, we're not as well-armed. As to equally protected, hmmmm...

There is a military doctrine that says "What you cannot defend is not yours."

[junior01]

lu sung daw are original name ng luzon name yan sa isang chinese lord na tumakas sa china kaya ang daming chinese sa manila bago pa man nakarating na mga kastila sa pinas


magaral uli ng manila history okey...

hence di totoo naka bahag ang mga taga manila bago dumating ang mga kastila. may kanyon na nga sa intramorus noon kaya di makapasok ang mga piratang insik sa manila kahit wala pa mga kastila. manila was rule by soliman from intramorus.....

[b_9904]

lu sung daw are original name ng luzon name yan sa isang chinese lord na tumakas sa china kaya ang daming chinese sa manila bago pa man nakarating na mga kastila sa pinas


magaral uli ng manila history okey...

hence di totoo naka bahag ang mga taga manila bago dumating ang mga kastila. may kanyon na nga sa intramorus noon kaya di makapasok ang mga piratang insik sa manila kahit wala pa mga kastila. manila was rule by soliman from intramorus.....

So what is your point? I am curious why you introduced this piece of info.

[junior01]

^^^kasi sabi nga ng chinese yung dagat east of china lahat sa kanila since time memorial at may mga chinese name pa sila sa lahat ng island...

so true din naman na di talaga nila na invade ang luzon kahit time memorila pa...

kung history binabasehan nila sa claim nila, di history din ating itapat sa kanila...

psssst wag history na gawa ng kastila sa philipines ha kundi yung history na gawa ng iba...

[manubol_rama]

^ maybe china's point is that north america should belong to norway because it was a viking named leif ericson who first discovered the continent and called it vinland the good. just maybe.

pre-colonial manila was under muslim rule and it was already surrounded with high walls long before the spaniards built the famous intramuros walls. the chinese, being good merchants, probably frequented luzon for trade and not to subdue the natives. the fact that they named these places in their native tongue is not a solid proof of ownership and territorial jurisdiction. it just proves that they're great historians.

[junior01]

^^^really no joking this china claim is base on history may panagalan pa nga sila sa lahat ng islands east of china. read china news and you will see....

[b_9904]

^^^kasi sabi nga ng chinese yung dagat east of china lahat sa kanila since time memorial at may mga chinese name pa sila sa lahat ng island...

so true din naman na di talaga nila na invade ang luzon kahit time memorila pa...

kung history binabasehan nila sa claim nila, di history din ating itapat sa kanila...

psssst wag history na gawa ng kastila sa philipines ha kundi yung history na gawa ng iba...

If that is the case then China LOST its claim the moment another state was established in the Philippines (ei: Moro State, Spanish, etc.)

Time Immemorial as a claim only functions if no other state has a legit claim to that territory. In our case we have a legit claim over the Philippines.

The question is: did China lose its claim over the Spratlys? I dunno the answer to that yet but its an interesting question to ponder on.

[manubol_rama]

^ china's claim may be based on historical grounds particularly discovery. but discovery without occupation seems weak, imo. besides, discovery isnt the only method which can bestow ownership. the philippines' claim of international laws on the seas is also a tenable position.
i think china doesnt want this dispute to be settled in the ICJ because the chinese govt knows that we stand in equal footing when it comes to claiming the islands. there lies the big problem. both have tenable claims( one historical, the other legal). but nobody can force china to be under the jurisdiction of the icj. one condition is that both state-parties must voluntarily submit before the icj, a condition sine qua non.

in the end, the islands will ultimately be claimed by the country which is not afraid to use force.

[b_9904]

^Define "force" then?

[manubol_rama]

^Define "force" then?

i cannot define force lol but if china goes all out and occupies the islands, there's no legal edict on earth which will stop them. in their eyes and those of their allies, it's not aggression because the chinese have historical claim. that's a valid claim, although not very strong legally.
however we condemn them, however we curse them, the only way we can take the islands back is if we use force against force. hopefully, our own allies will not abandon us.

[b_9904]

^hmmm.... parang katulad lang ito ng start ng world war. However, ang mas nakikita kong mas gagamitin ng China is the ECONOMIC side sa issue na ito. They will only bully the others pero at the same time offer the ECONOMIC packages and what not para mag backdown yung ibang may claims.

I dunno if they wanna drag the issue ng matagalan pero definitely force, as in military might, is not enough to annex the islands. They could occupy the islands if they want to but the question that matters is if they could RETAIN it.

[manubol_rama]

^ the chinese are probably looking at the globe. they see the philippines enjoying the advantage of having a great chunk of the eastern part of the pacific ocean all to itself. such lucky filipinos. why cant the chinese have all of the teeny weeny south china sea? we're freaking billion people, they say.

[b_9904]

^ the chinese are probably looking at the globe. they see the philippines enjoying the advantage of having a great chunk of the eastern part of the pacific ocean all to itself. such lucky filipinos. why cant the chinese have all of the teeny weeny south china sea? we're freaking billion people, they say.

they wish...

[b_9904]

China lodges protest, claims PH gunboat harassed fishermen taking shelter

[_Bahay_Kubo_]

China lodges protest, claims PH gunboat harassed fishermen taking shelter

"taking shelter"? really?

so China (and their spokespeople here in the form of Bayan Muna, Anakpawis, etc.), what do you call these? "taking shelter"? "harassment"?





poaching our islands' marine resources (taking with them giant clams, corals and live sharks) while "taking shelter" and complaining about being "harassed" by PN personnel from the Heneral Goyo, who caught them red-handed? naman!

[creech]

lets be like vietnam.

[bathousai]

historical claim by china is crap......the military philosophy "what you can see and conquer is yours" back then doesn't apply today....if it is, then they should give back hongkong and the other territories to it's conquerors!!!

lu sung my a$$, just because they gave it a name doesn't mean they can stake a claim.........just look at yourself in the mirror, or look at the people that you see across the street, if all look like chinese then they may have a point, if not then the original habitants ARE not chinese........so they can claim nothing!!!

this greedy chinese just come to visit and trade then think that they own the place....the nerve of this race!!!

[junior01]

"taking shelter"? really?

so China (and their spokespeople here in the form of Bayan Muna, Anakpawis, etc.), what do you call these? "taking shelter"? "harassment"?



http://i41.tinypic.com/2q8d405.jpg[/img]

poaching our islands' marine resources (taking with them giant clams, corals and live sharks) while "taking shelter" and complaining about being "harassed" by PN personnel from the Heneral Goyo, who caught them red-handed? naman!

this looks like more expensive than fish

the waters around the shoal are deep so this means all these shells were taken inside the shoal???

[bagiw.boi]

lets be like vietnam.

the vietnamese. bad@sses, and also awesomely cunning f#cks...

learned today that the viets tricked horny pinoys into losing valuable philippine territory.

yay! for want of sex, the island was lost.



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Vietnamese invasion of Pugad island or Southwest Cay

Southwest Cay, known as Pugad island in the Philippines, as (南子岛) Nanzi Dao in China and as Đảo Song Tử Tây in Vietnam, is an island that belongs to the Spratly chain. It was occupied by Philippine forces up to 1975 only when South Vietnam forces were able to invade the island.

Southwest Cay is in the northern edge of the Spratly chain. It is within North Danger Reef which also contains the Philippine-occupied Northeast Cay (Parola Island), Vietnamese-occupied South Reef and unoccupied North Reef. Southwest Cay and Northeast Cay are just 1.75 miles (2.82 km) away from each other. Each island can actually see the other within their respective horizons.

The invasion took place when all the Philippine soldiers guarding the island of Pugad left to attend to the birthday party of their commanding officer who is based on nearby Parola Island. The storm that day is also believed to have persuaded all the soldiers to regroup temporarily on Parola island. A report also came out saying that South Vietnamese officials managed to send Vietnamese prostitutes to the birthday party to lure the Filipino soldiers guarding Pugad Island. It was said to be a "present" to the Philippine commander for his birthday and as a move of South Vietnamese forces to befriend all Filipino soldiers guarding the Spratlys. Philippine soldiers did not expect that South Vietnam would resort to foul play since both Philippines and South Vietnam, together with the United States, were allies in the Vietnam War. This tactic is believed to be the reason why South Vietnamese forces knew that the Filipino soldiers left the island, an action that is usually kept confidential.

After the party and after the weather cleared out, the returning soldiers were surprised that a company of South Vietnamese soldiers were already in the island. The South Vietnamese flag replaced the Philippine flag flying in the pole created by Philippine soldiers themselves. The soldiers returned to Parola immediately for fear that Parola would be the next target. After higher-ups of the Philippines were informed about the situation, they instructed the troops based in Parola and Pagasa to stay on red alert status. For the following mornings, the only thing the Filipino soldiers could do in Parola was to "curse" while South Vietnamese sang their national anthem. Malacañang officials, who did not want to compromise the alliance while the Vietnam War was still being fought, decided to remain silent.

A few months later, the recently formed unified Vietnam (after North Vietnam successfully invaded South Vietnam) decided to remove all remaining South Vietnamese troops in the Spratlys and establish military control among the features. It was reported that dozens of South Vietnamese soldiers in Pugad Island swam all the way to Parola just to avoid being captured by North Vietnamese forces. It was then when Malacañang officials, headed by President Ferdinand Marcos, discussed how the Philippines could reclaim the island. It had been apparent that most of the officials (who treat the communists as a threat to the Philippine national security) want to attack Pugad to reclaim it. However, after an intelligence report came stating that the unified Vietnam had already built a huge concrete garrison within a few weeks, the officials dropped the plan and tried to resolve the issue diplomatically. However, this approach eventually died, along the process making Pugad a Vietnamese-occupied island up to this day. This incident was confirmed in interviews with soldiers involved in an episode of the defunct Magandang Gabi Bayan (Eng.: Good Evening Nation) (MGB) of ABS-CBN.

exerpt from: http://jibraelangel2blog.blogspot.co...d-spratly.html
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