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^^^Kung handa ba siyang sagutin mga tanong ko na hindi sinasagot ng mga INCorporated members. Hahayaan ko na sana, kaya lang nakakatawa kasi ang bibo-bibo nya mag criticize pero ayaw naman saguting mga tanong ko tungkol kay Jesus.
Originally Posted by skye_phoenix
^^^Kung handa ba siyang sagutin mga tanong ko na hindi sinasagot ng mga INCorporated members. Hahayaan ko na sana, kaya lang nakakatawa kasi ang bibo-bibo nya mag criticize pero ayaw naman saguting mga tanong ko tungkol kay Jesus.
skye_phoenix
... ano ba ang tanong mo at parang ksp ka diyan???
Sasagutin mo ba kung sabihin ko sa'yo? At mas ksp ka, bakit ka affected asawa ka ba ni Jarvis?
... eh para kang nanliligaw na naghihintay kung sasagutin ka ba o basted ...
Member
by Pasugo Mailbox on Tuesday, June 5, 2012 at 9:06am ·
THE BIBLE EXPLICITLY says that God is the Savior, I Tim. 2:3. In your denial of the Godship of Christ you have a pseudo-savior. I Tim:2:5 explicitly states that Jesus Christ is a mediator not savior. It is Jesus Christ, God Incarnate, true God and true man who is and no one else.
Your insistence that Jesus Christ is only a man and is devoid of divinity is practically denying the veracity of a basic biblical truth—the Incarnation as revealed in Jn. 1:14 and Philippians 2:6-8. Except for the Iglesia ni Cristo, Christendom believes that Jesus Christ is true God and true man because he is God Incarnate. In denying this you have made liars of John and Paul and since their lies appear in the New Testament this is tantamount to saying that the Holy Bible, the Iglesia ni Cristo's sole rule of faith is tainted with lies.
Lutgardo P. Alquiros
Lucena City, Philippines
Editor's reply:
Your letter deals with an interesting topic, that the denial of the Godship of Christ allegedly yields a pseudo-savior.
I Timothy 2:3 indeed states God is our Savior. The Iglesia ni Cristo preaches that 1 Timothy 2:5 (King James Version) indeed states that Christ is a man, the mediator between God and men. The Iglesia ni Cristo preaches that also.
But what about Titus 1:4,3 which states that Jesus Christ is also our Savior? Do you deny that?
John 1:14 does not state that God became flesh. What it states is that the Word (or Logos) was made flesh. Your conclusion that the Word is God is taken from a mistranslation of John 1:1. The word had a beginning and thus cannot be God because God had no beginning (Ps. 90:1).
Thus, the Moffatt Version renders John 1:1 "... the Logos was divine" and Smith-Goodspeed renders it " .. .the Word was divine." Biblical scholars say that the Logos means word, thought., concept, and the expressions thereof (Ryrie Study Bible, p. 1599). Also, the word. Logos means reason or plan (The New Encyclopedia Britannica, Micropaedia, p. 302). Thus Logos means thought, word, or plan of God, not God.
Philippians 2:6-8 does not say Christ is God but on the contrary it says Christ is man. He is indeed in the form of God; but so is Adam who was created in the image and likeness of God. (Gen. 1:26).
Christ is not equal to God. Not in power for the Father is greater than Christ (Jn. 14:28) nor in knowledge for there is something the Father knows that Christ does not know (Mark 23:32). But in holiness for God is holy (Hosea 11:9) and Christ is holy (Mark 1:24)—God cannot sin (Heb. 6:18) and Christ did not sin (II Cor. 5:21).
Thus, the belief in Christ who is "God Incarnate" is truly a belief in a fake or "pseudo-savior." It is the believers of such doctrine —that Christ is God Incarnate—who have made liars of not only John and Paul but also of the prophets, the Apostles, Christ, and even God Himself who all say that Christ is man, chosen by God to be Lord and Savior and Judge on Judgment Day.
God's Message: January-February 1993| Volume 25| Number 11| ISSN 0116-1636| p. 2
INC lost the debate.
Napansin mo?
Hehehe...
Ecstatic about the Pyrrhic victory, I see...
If not for some of Totnak's posts being deleted (thanks to his offensive tone which was uncalled for), I could have easily proved that Totnak, before that debate, admitted that the debate itself was just, at least he spoke only for himself, was only for bragging rights and not really for the pursuit of truth. Neither was it an official debate, as the two sides have agreed on, therefore, INC did not lost at all in that debate.
Totnak's Pyrrhic victory did not, in anyway, disprove the truth that the RCC is the mother of Harlots, as described in the book of Revelations.
Pyrrhic victory means a victory won at a huge cost. It's not the right term to describe that.
You're right, though. The win isn't supposed to validate one belief above the other, it just simply means one debater did better. The result may have been different if it were two different people with access to different sets of information and different mindsets who did the debate.
I beg to differ. I learned that term from Robert Browne. Here's how wikipedia.org agrees with my use of the phrase. A victory not worth celebrating.
At least, we agree on something.
The Trinity is a wonderful mystery. No one understands it. The most learned theologian, the holiest Pope, the greatest saint, all are mystified by it as a child of seven.
[Martin J. Scott, S.J., God and Myself, Nhil Obstat: Arthurus J. Scanlan, S.T.D., Imprimatur: Joannes Cardinalis Farley (P.J. Kenedy and Sons, 1917), pp. 118-119.]
John Walsh a Jesuit priest has this to say:
God, of course, can not perform an absurdity, a contradiction in terms. He cannot for instance, make two and two equal five
[John Walsh, This is Catholicism (New York: Image Books, 1959) p. 25.]
^^^ The Holy Trinity is one of the truest, one of the most Biblical, and one of the grandest, of all the theological doctrines ever handed down by God to humans.
I do not know where the Pyrrhic victory is in Totnak's win over Menorrah.
Even at the earliest posts, Totnak already won by a clear logical as well as meritorious victory, over Menorrah's illogic and misinterpretations of the Holy Bible.
If there is any thing Pyrrhic here, it is your continued sour graping.
this is not handed down by God to humans it is handed down by pagan belief
Plato(Father of Pagan Trinity):
"God can in no way be described." -- Plato (Father of the pagan Trinity)
Kramsm bakit kaya hindi manalo sa debate ang INC kapag online debate?
"By Him all things were created"
by Pasugo Mailbox on Monday, June 4, 2012 at 8:20am ·
IT IS COMMON knowledge in religious parlance that one of the essential characteristics of being God is being the Creator of all things. No less than the Bible itself proves that Jesus Christ created the world and we can read that in Colossians 1:16. So how can you reconcile your teaching that Christ is not God and the fact that He created all things?
Albert Fugard
King Williams Town, South Africa
Editor's reply:
Colossians 1 :16 states, thus:
"For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him." (New King James Version)
Perhaps, what makes you think that the verse teaches that "Christ created the world" is the part which states "by Him all things were created." Notice nevertheless that just before that statement, the Bible states, "He (Christ) is the firstborn over all creation" (Col. 1:15, Ibid.)—which clearly indicates that Christ is one of those which were created and therefore not Himself the Creator.
The Bible unequivocally informs us who the one and only Creator is. Isaiah 44:24 records thus:
"Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: "I am the Lord, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself". (Ibid. )
The "Lord" and "Redeemer" who made everything "all alone" and "by Himself was further identified by the prophet Isaiah:
"Doubtless You are our Father ...You, 0 Lord^ are our Father; Our Redeemer from Everlasting is Your name" (Isa. 63:16, Ibid.)
Hence, as the prophet Malachi rhetorically asks, "Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us?" (Malachi 2:10, Ibid.) Clearly therefore, the one God who "created the world" as taught by the Bible is not Christ, but His Father who is the only true God (John 17:1, 3).
So, why then does Colossians 1:16 state that "by Him (Christ) all things were created"? That very verse itself provides the answer—the last part of it explains, "All things were created through Him (Christ)." Remember that one of the meanings of the term "by" is the word "through," and thus the two are synonyms (Microsoft Encarta 2006 Dictionary Tools). But then again, in what sense "were all things created through Christ"? The explanation is again found in that very same verse which continues, "AI! things were created through Him and for Him." That all things were created for Jesus is further explained by Apostle Raul who himself wrote Colossians 1:16. He pronounced:
"God did what he had purposed, and made known to us the secret plan he had already decided to complete by means of Christ. This plan, which God will complete when the time is right, is to bring all creation together, everything in heaven and on earth, with Christ as head. All things are done according to God's plan and decision . . . . . based on what he had decided from the very beginning" (Eph. 1:9-l 1, Today's English Version)
Notice that "from the very beginning" it had been the "secret plan" of Cod that when the time is right "He will "bring all creation together, everything in heaven and on earthy with Christ as head." It is in this sense thus that God created everything for Jesus.
It is clear therefore that all things, were created "by Christ" not in the sense that He is Himself the Creator, but in the sense that all were created by the Father through and for Him (Christ). Hence, in other translations of the Bible such as the Today's English Version , Colossians 1:16 is rendered in this manner:
"For through him God created everything in heaven and on earth. . . ., God created the whole universe through him and for him." (emphasis ours)
God's Message: July 2008| Volume 40| Number 7| ISSN 0116-1636| p. 4
Hehehe...
Just like your compatriot Totnak...
Didn't you remember what Totnak said before his debate with Menorrah? During the time when I was opposing the debate prior to its start? Totnak admitted that it is not in pursuit of the truth, but only for bragging rights... Have you forgotten, they called in an "informal debate?"
Again, it's nothing better than a Pyrrhic victory, for you didn't really achieve nothing from it, rather, points raised by Menorrah are enough to, at the least, raise doubts against the denial of the RCC being the apostate church, but of course, not for subjective-thinking Catholics (like the one whose post appears below).
"My Lord and my God"
by Pasugo Mailbox on Monday, June 4, 2012 at 11:36am ·
HOW CAN YOU say that Jesus Christ is not God when Thomas, an apostle of Christ, clearly called Him God. In John 20:28 we can read, "And Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and MY GOD!"" Doesn't the pronoun ''Him" refer to Christ? Clearly, Thomas referred to Christ as God because He is God.
Ian Parks
Madison Wisconsin, USA
Editor's reply:
We are not the only ones who say that Jesus Christ is not God. Christ Himself proved this when He declared that He is man (Jn. 8:40; 4:24; Lk. 24:39).
"But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this." (John 8:40, NKJV, emphasis ours)
"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:24, NKJV)
"Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” (Luke 24:39, NKJV)
Regarding Apostle Thomas' statement in John 20:28, please refer to the article on page 31, which discusses in full the context of such statement and the reason it is not a valid basis to further the false claim that Christ is God.
Please read the following verses to get a good idea on what transpired prior Thomas' statement:
Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene
10 Then the followers went back home. 11 But Mary stood outside the tomb, crying. While she was crying, she bent down and looked inside the tomb. 12 She saw two angels dressed in white sitting where Jesus’ body had been. One was sitting where the head had been; the other was sitting where the feet had been. 13 The angels asked Mary, “Woman, why are you crying?” Mary answered, “They took away the body of my Lord, and I don’t know where they put him.” 14 When Mary said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there. But she did not know that it was Jesus. 15 He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who are you looking for?” She thought he was the man in charge of the garden. So she said to him, “Did you take him away, sir? Tell me where you put him. I will go and get him.” 16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned toward him and said in Aramaic, “Rabboni,” which means “Teacher.” 17 Jesus said to her, “You don’t need to hold on to me! I have not yet gone back up to the Father. But go to my followers [a] and tell them this: ‘I am going back to my Father and your Father. I am going back to my God and your God.’” 18 Mary Magdalene went to the followers and told them, “I saw the Lord!” And she told them what he had said to her.
Jesus Appears to His Followers
19 The day was Sunday, and that same evening the followers were together. They had the doors locked because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders. Suddenly, Jesus was standing there among them. He said, “Peace be with you!” 20 As soon as he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. When the followers saw the Lord, they were very happy. 21 Then Jesus said again, “Peace be with you. It was the Father who sent me, and I am now sending you in the same way.” 22 Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of anyone, their sins are forgiven. If there is anyone whose sins you don’t forgive, their sins are not forgiven.”
Jesus Appears to Thomas
24 Thomas (called Didymus) was one of the twelve, but he was not with the other followers when Jesus came. 25 They told him, “We saw the Lord.” Thomas said, “That’s hard to believe. I will have to see the nail holes in his hands, put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side. Only then will I believe it.” 26 A week later the followers were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. The doors were locked, but Jesus came and stood among them. He said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here. Look at my hands. Put your hand here in my side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28 Thomas said to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “You believe because you see me. Great blessings belong to the people who believe without seeing me!” (John 20:10-29, Easy To Read Version)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[The following are excerpt from the article referred above: How should we understand Thomas statement in John 20:28, GOD'S MESSAGE, November 2004, p.31-33:]
A statement of amazement and disbelief:
When Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" was he at this point affirming his faith in the alleged deity of Jesus or was he in state of unbelief?
Think of the situation before Jesus showed Himself to them: the doors were shut when Jesus abruptly stood in their midst and summoned Thomas to come near to Him. What was Thomas' reaction? A reaction of unbelief and amazement. Is this kind of reaction something that is strange or unusual? No. The fact is, Thomas was not the only one caught perplexed but also the rest of his companions. Luke reported that when Jesus appeared abruptly in their midst while the disciples were gathered together, they were terrified and frightened (Lk. 24: 36-37).
36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. (Luke 24:36-37, NKJV)
Even after Jesus showed His hands and His feet (Lk. 24:40), still they did not believe because of their joy and amazement (Lk 24:41).
40When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, "Have you any food here?" (Luke 40-41, NKJV)
It was at this time that Jesus upbraided them (Mk. 16:14).
14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. (Mark 16:14, NKJV)
It is not surprising, therefore, for Thomas to react in such fashion similar to the other disciples. Being in a state of wonder and disbelief, he uttered statements that were contrary to the message taught to them by Jesus through Mary Magdalene. What did Jesus tell Mary that Thomas and the rest of the disciples should believe concerning the question of who should be their God? Jesus taught Mary and the disciples that their God is His God (Jn. 20:17)
Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene
17 Jesus said to her, “You don’t need to hold on to me! I have not yet gone back up to the Father. But go to my followers and tell them this: ‘I am going back to my Father and your Father. I am going back to my God and your God.’” 18 Mary Magdalene went to the followers and told them, “I saw the Lord!” And she told them what he had said to her. (John 20:17-18, Easy to Read Version, emphasis ours)
It must be remembered that during the preceding days before His death, Jesus taught His disciples the identity of the only true God whom they should believe. In His intercessory prayer to the Father in heaven, He emphasized the absolute oneness of God by saying, "Father, ... You, the only true God" (Jn. 17:1,3, NKJV).
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (John 17:1,3, NKJV, emphasis ours)
Obviously, Thomas failed to remember these words of his Master. What he uttered in John 20:28 should not be regarded as a statement of faith nor should they be considered as a strong biblical foundation to assert Christ's alleged deity.
Thomas' statement in John 20:28 should be rejected as basis in proving the alleged divinity of Christ. Remember that Thomas was not preaching at that moment. His statement was against the statement that was written about Christ, uttered by Peter when he was preaching under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:1-4, 22)
22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— (Acts 2:22, NKJV, emphasis ours)
If the proponents of the Christ-is-God theology were to summon Thomas as a witness to prove their point, their evidence is weak because the one they consider as their prime witness was at that time in a state of doubt.
A mistake rebuked
Others ask "Why did Jesus not rebuke Thomas if his statement was wrong?" They allege that Jesus accepted Thomas' statement and even blessed him afterwards. Is it true that Thomas was not rebuked and was blessed later? What did Jesus tell him after he proclaimed, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? . . . . . (Jn. 20:29, Revised Standard Version)
"Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." (John 20:29, RSV)
What do we see at this point? Jesus was rebuking him, not blessing him. On the other hand, who are blessed according to Jesus? "..... .. .. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." (Jn. 20:29, Ibid.)
It is true that many of Christ's disciples had neither seen Him person-after He had risen nor had witnessed His resurrection. They had not seen His resurrected body, yet they believed His body had risen from the grave. Although many have not seen Jesus walked on earth as a man, many have accepted His testimony that He is a man telling the truth which He heard from God (Jn. 8:40). Apostle Peter testified that He is a man proven by God through the miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him (Acts 2:22, Today's English Version). Apostle Paul taught the Christians that the man Jesus Christ is their Mediator to God (I Tim. 2:5, KJV). His disciples never proclaimed Jesus as God in their preaching and in their epistles.
Unfortunately, there are still those who insist on submitting the doubting apostle's statement in John 20:28 as their alleged evidence in proving their thwarted belief on Christ's state of being. The reason is simple. In the absence of explicit biblical evidences that could substantiate their claim, they have no other recourse but to give much credit to the testimony of a doubting person. In a way, there are many "doubting Thomases" who, in spite of the overwhelming biblical evidences that it is not Jesus but the Father alone who is the only true God (Jn. 17:1, 3; 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:6) still contend that Jesus is God, using as basis erroneous statements such as that which was uttered by the Apostle Thomas in John 20:28.
However, those who have done a thorough examination of the biblical narratives cited, after doing an exhaustive study, would agree to the truth that: Thomas' statement in John 20:28 is not a confession of faith but a statement made by a person who was in a state of amazement and disbelief.
God's Message: November 2004| Volume 36| Number 11| ISSN 0116-1636| p. 4
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