Peanut Gallery: Menorrah vs. Totnak: The 1st Century Church completely apostatized

[krams2]

at nakakapagtaka pa mismo galing sa KANILA





ito pala yung tinayo ni Cristong sa kaniya?

[Gunnar]

bakit naman hinihintay niyo pa ang reaction namin? nilagay na ang decision diba medyo di ko lang nagets bakit si ateo parang hindi ata nakapagdecide

hindi ako sure

anyway magpost ako ng magandang panghuling tanong sa mga tagabasa ng debate hihi

Good, it seems you accepted the decision of the judge.

[Katholikon]

at nakakapagtaka pa mismo galing sa KANILA

http://i.imgur.com/LovBg.pnghttp://i....com/7jmlQ.png
http://i.imgur.com/tnhMl.pnghttp://i....com/i5K1b.png
http://i.imgur.com/1b2GV.png

ito pala yung tinayo ni Cristong sa kaniya?

^^^ A sore attitude of a sore loser.

[Katholikon]

Ooooops.

Double post.

[skye_phoenix]

^^^ A sore attitude of a sore loser.

Agree!

[krams2]

^^^ A sore attitude of a sore loser.

natalo dito sa ROT tapos???
natalo sa totoong live debate-RCC

uy sabi yan ng pari mo PAGAMIN nila yan at hindi sa amin galing yan
itanong mo sa sarili mo BAKIT GANUN?

[krams2]

Good, it seems you accepted the decision of the judge.

tinanggap ni mennorah ang defeat sino naman ako para hindi tanggapin diba
it stays with ROT but not in a formal official debate of RCC and INC
still hope na magkaroon ng official debate from any catholic apologist in ROT
or yung kilalang debatista ng katoliko sa Pinas

ang sabi ko nga hindi lalaban yan ng live debate

[admiral__cidric]

Krams, bakit nga ba hindi manalo-nalo ang INC sa online debate?

tinanggap ni mennorah ang defeat sino naman ako para hindi tanggapin diba
it stays with ROT but not in a formal official debate of RCC and INC
still hope na magkaroon ng official debate from any catholic apologist in ROT
or yung kilalang debatista ng katoliko sa Pinas

ang sabi ko nga hindi lalaban yan ng live debate

[krams2]

Krams, bakit nga ba hindi manalo-nalo ang INC sa online debate?

ilan bang online debate alam mo?
ewan ko nga eh eh bakit yung Katoliko hindi manalo nalo sa INC sa live debate yung maayos na may moderator bakit kaya?

[admiral__cidric]

Bakit nga kaya?

Ano bang meron sa online debate na wala sa live debate?

Ano bang pwedeng gawin sa live debate na hindi pwedeng gawin sa online debate?

Isa lang ang sigurado, palaging talunan ang INC sa online debate.

ilan bang online debate alam mo?
ewan ko nga eh eh bakit yung Katoliko hindi manalo nalo sa INC sa live debate yung maayos na may moderator bakit kaya?

[rezilauqe]

"My Lord and my God"
by Pasugo Mailbox on Monday, June 4, 2012 at 11:36am ·
HOW CAN YOU say that Jesus Christ is not God when Thomas, an apostle of Christ, clearly called Him God. In John 20:28 we can read, "And Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and MY GOD!"" Doesn't the pronoun ''Him" refer to Christ? Clearly, Thomas referred to Christ as God because He is God.



Ian Parks
Madison Wisconsin, USA



Editor's reply:

We are not the only ones who say that Jesus Christ is not God. Christ Himself proved this when He declared that He is man (Jn. 8:40; 4:24; Lk. 24:39).

"But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this." (John 8:40, NKJV, emphasis ours)

"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:24, NKJV)

"Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” (Luke 24:39, NKJV)

Regarding Apostle Thomas' statement in John 20:28, please refer to the article on page 31, which discusses in full the context of such statement and the reason it is not a valid basis to further the false claim that Christ is God.


Please read the following verses to get a good idea on what transpired prior Thomas' statement:

Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene
10 Then the followers went back home. 11 But Mary stood outside the tomb, crying. While she was crying, she bent down and looked inside the tomb. 12 She saw two angels dressed in white sitting where Jesus’ body had been. One was sitting where the head had been; the other was sitting where the feet had been. 13 The angels asked Mary, “Woman, why are you crying?” Mary answered, “They took away the body of my Lord, and I don’t know where they put him.” 14 When Mary said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there. But she did not know that it was Jesus. 15 He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who are you looking for?” She thought he was the man in charge of the garden. So she said to him, “Did you take him away, sir? Tell me where you put him. I will go and get him.” 16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned toward him and said in Aramaic, “Rabboni,” which means “Teacher.” 17 Jesus said to her, “You don’t need to hold on to me! I have not yet gone back up to the Father. But go to my followers [a] and tell them this: ‘I am going back to my Father and your Father. I am going back to my God and your God.’” 18 Mary Magdalene went to the followers and told them, “I saw the Lord!” And she told them what he had said to her.

Jesus Appears to His Followers
19 The day was Sunday, and that same evening the followers were together. They had the doors locked because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders. Suddenly, Jesus was standing there among them. He said, “Peace be with you!” 20 As soon as he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. When the followers saw the Lord, they were very happy. 21 Then Jesus said again, “Peace be with you. It was the Father who sent me, and I am now sending you in the same way.” 22 Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of anyone, their sins are forgiven. If there is anyone whose sins you don’t forgive, their sins are not forgiven.”

Jesus Appears to Thomas
24 Thomas (called Didymus) was one of the twelve, but he was not with the other followers when Jesus came. 25 They told him, “We saw the Lord.” Thomas said, “That’s hard to believe. I will have to see the nail holes in his hands, put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side. Only then will I believe it.” 26 A week later the followers were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. The doors were locked, but Jesus came and stood among them. He said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here. Look at my hands. Put your hand here in my side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28 Thomas said to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “You believe because you see me. Great blessings belong to the people who believe without seeing me!” (John 20:10-29, Easy To Read Version)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[The following are excerpt from the article referred above: How should we understand Thomas statement in John 20:28, GOD'S MESSAGE, November 2004, p.31-33:]

A statement of amazement and disbelief:
When Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" was he at this point affirming his faith in the alleged deity of Jesus or was he in state of unbelief?

Think of the situation before Jesus showed Himself to them: the doors were shut when Jesus abruptly stood in their midst and summoned Thomas to come near to Him. What was Thomas' reaction? A reaction of unbelief and amazement. Is this kind of reaction something that is strange or unusual? No. The fact is, Thomas was not the only one caught perplexed but also the rest of his companions. Luke reported that when Jesus appeared abruptly in their midst while the disciples were gathered together, they were terrified and frightened (Lk. 24: 36-37).

36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. (Luke 24:36-37, NKJV)

Even after Jesus showed His hands and His feet (Lk. 24:40), still they did not believe because of their joy and amazement (Lk 24:41).

40When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, "Have you any food here?" (Luke 40-41, NKJV)

It was at this time that Jesus upbraided them (Mk. 16:14).

14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. (Mark 16:14, NKJV)

It is not surprising, therefore, for Thomas to react in such fashion similar to the other disciples. Being in a state of wonder and disbelief, he uttered statements that were contrary to the message taught to them by Jesus through Mary Magdalene. What did Jesus tell Mary that Thomas and the rest of the disciples should believe concerning the question of who should be their God? Jesus taught Mary and the disciples that their God is His God (Jn. 20:17)

Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene
17 Jesus said to her, “You don’t need to hold on to me! I have not yet gone back up to the Father. But go to my followers and tell them this: ‘I am going back to my Father and your Father. I am going back to my God and your God.’” 18 Mary Magdalene went to the followers and told them, “I saw the Lord!” And she told them what he had said to her. (John 20:17-18, Easy to Read Version, emphasis ours)

It must be remembered that during the preceding days before His death, Jesus taught His disciples the identity of the only true God whom they should believe. In His intercessory prayer to the Father in heaven, He emphasized the absolute oneness of God by saying, "Father, ... You, the only true God" (Jn. 17:1,3, NKJV).

1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (John 17:1,3, NKJV, emphasis ours)

Obviously, Thomas failed to remember these words of his Master. What he uttered in John 20:28 should not be regarded as a statement of faith nor should they be considered as a strong biblical foundation to assert Christ's alleged deity.

Thomas' statement in John 20:28 should be rejected as basis in proving the alleged divinity of Christ. Remember that Thomas was not preaching at that moment. His statement was against the statement that was written about Christ, uttered by Peter when he was preaching under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:1-4, 22)

22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— (Acts 2:22, NKJV, emphasis ours)

If the proponents of the Christ-is-God theology were to summon Thomas as a witness to prove their point, their evidence is weak because the one they consider as their prime witness was at that time in a state of doubt.

A mistake rebuked
Others ask "Why did Jesus not rebuke Thomas if his statement was wrong?" They allege that Jesus accepted Thomas' statement and even blessed him afterwards. Is it true that Thomas was not rebuked and was blessed later? What did Jesus tell him after he proclaimed, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? . . . . . (Jn. 20:29, Revised Standard Version)

"Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." (John 20:29, RSV)

What do we see at this point? Jesus was rebuking him, not blessing him. On the other hand, who are blessed according to Jesus? "..... .. .. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." (Jn. 20:29, Ibid.)

It is true that many of Christ's disciples had neither seen Him person-after He had risen nor had witnessed His resurrection. They had not seen His resurrected body, yet they believed His body had risen from the grave. Although many have not seen Jesus walked on earth as a man, many have accepted His testimony that He is a man telling the truth which He heard from God (Jn. 8:40). Apostle Peter testified that He is a man proven by God through the miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him (Acts 2:22, Today's English Version). Apostle Paul taught the Christians that the man Jesus Christ is their Mediator to God (I Tim. 2:5, KJV). His disciples never proclaimed Jesus as God in their preaching and in their epistles.

Unfortunately, there are still those who insist on submitting the doubting apostle's statement in John 20:28 as their alleged evidence in proving their thwarted belief on Christ's state of being. The reason is simple. In the absence of explicit biblical evidences that could substantiate their claim, they have no other recourse but to give much credit to the testimony of a doubting person. In a way, there are many "doubting Thomases" who, in spite of the overwhelming biblical evidences that it is not Jesus but the Father alone who is the only true God (Jn. 17:1, 3; 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:6) still contend that Jesus is God, using as basis erroneous statements such as that which was uttered by the Apostle Thomas in John 20:28.

However, those who have done a thorough examination of the biblical narratives cited, after doing an exhaustive study, would agree to the truth that: Thomas' statement in John 20:28 is not a confession of faith but a statement made by a person who was in a state of amazement and disbelief.



God's Message: November 2004| Volume 36| Number 11| ISSN 0116-1636| p. 4

[JaRvis_Jayren]

Bakit nga kaya?

Ano bang meron sa online debate na wala sa live debate?

Ano bang pwedeng gawin sa live debate na hindi pwedeng gawin sa online debate?

Isa lang ang sigurado, palaging talunan ang INC sa online debate.

Hehehe...

Ecstatic about the Pyrrhic victory, I see...

If not for some of Totnak's posts being deleted (thanks to his offensive tone which was uncalled for), I could have easily proved that Totnak, before that debate, admitted that the debate itself was just, at least he spoke only for himself, was only for bragging rights and not really for the pursuit of truth. Neither was it an official debate, as the two sides have agreed on, therefore, INC did not lost at all in that debate.

Totnak's Pyrrhic victory did not, in anyway, disprove the truth that the RCC is the mother of Harlots, as described in the book of Revelations.

Hehehe...

Just like your compatriot Totnak...

Didn't you remember what Totnak said before his debate with Menorrah? During the time when I was opposing the debate prior to its start? Totnak admitted that it is not in pursuit of the truth, but only for bragging rights... Have you forgotten, they called in an "informal debate?"

Again, it's nothing better than a Pyrrhic victory, for you didn't really achieve nothing from it, rather, points raised by Menorrah are enough to, at the least, raise doubts against the denial of the RCC being the apostate church, but of course, not for subjective-thinking Catholics.

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

[sophion]

A statement of amazement and disbelief:
When Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" was he at this point affirming his faith in the alleged deity of Jesus or was he in state of unbelief?

Think of the situation before Jesus showed Himself to them: the doors were shut when Jesus abruptly stood in their midst and summoned Thomas to come near to Him. What was Thomas' reaction? A reaction of unbelief and amazement. Is this kind of reaction something that is strange or unusual? No. The fact is, Thomas was not the only one caught perplexed but also the rest of his companions. Luke reported that when Jesus appeared abruptly in their midst while the disciples were gathered together, they were terrified and frightened (Lk. 24: 36-37).

INC's explanation here is very very VERY weak. The assumption that Thomas was still in a state of disbelief after listening to jesus and personally inspecting those miraculous evidence DEFIES ALL LOGIC AND COMMON SENSE. And put yourself in the shoes of the author...wouldnt that confession be the climax of this little episode?

[JaRvis_Jayren]

INC's explanation here is very very VERY weak. The assumption that Thomas was still in a state of disbelief after listening to jesus and personally inspecting those miraculous evidence DEFIES ALL LOGIC AND COMMON SENSE. And put yourself in the shoes of the author...wouldnt that confession be the climax of this little episode?

What defies common sense is you did not even mind that Jesus rebuked Thomas afterwards.

CLICK HERE

[sophion]

What defies common sense is you did not even mind that Jesus rebuked Thomas afterwards.

CLICK HERE

14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. (Mark 16:14, NKJV)

iyan ba? rebuke yan for not believing those who saw him. its not a rebuke for the confession itself.

regarding the climactic statement of Thomas, heto reaction ni jeeeezes dun:

You believe because you see me

its an act of belief daw. tapos sasabihin ng pastor ninyo state of disbelief.

[JaRvis_Jayren]

verse 29:

Jesus said to him, “You believe because you see me. Great blessings belong to the people who believe without seeing me!


paano naging rebuke yan? it actually confirms his confession as an act of belief.

Tamad kang magbasa? O talagang ayaw mo lang intindihin yung contants ng link? Or ganyan ka lang talaga ka-dishonest?

'...Jesus said to her, “You don’t need to hold on to me! I have not yet gone back up to the Father. But go to my followers and tell them this: ‘I am going back to my Father and your Father. I am going back to my God and your God.’” - John 20:17

So, if you think Jesus is God, then He would be a God ascending to another God? So are there more than just one God?

[sophion]

^ edited. pakibasa ulit.

[JaRvis_Jayren]

^ edited. pakibasa ulit.

I'm sorry, but it is you who have to read the content in the page to which the link in my previous post leads you to...

[sophion]

I'm sorry, but it is you who have to read the content in the page to which the link in my previous post leads you to...

much of the contents were referring to many other verses. shifting the argument from thomas to the idea that only the father is god.

sorry but it doesnt solve the issue. the fact is jesus did not rebuke his climactic statement. on the contrary, confirming his belief.

"my lord & my god" was thomas' statement of belief.

that state of unbelief argument defies logic, common sense, and the bible itself.

[JaRvis_Jayren]

much of the contents were referring to many other verses. shifting the argument from thomas to the idea that only the father is god.

sorry but it doesnt solve the issue. the fact is jesus did not rebuke his climactic statement. on the contrary, confirming his belief.

"my lord & my god" was thomas' statement of belief.

that state of unbelief argument defies logic, common sense, and the bible itself.

Again, basahin mo NANG mabuti. Jesus did rebuke Thomas, and verse 28 is not profession of his faith, as he was in a state of disbelief... BASAHIN mo nang mabuti ang contents ng link. Otherwise, you are either being dishonest or tinatamad ka lang basahin.

CLICK HERE