Contradiction sa mga aral ng mga Ebanghelico

[Pinas_Dugyot]

Roman Catholics are not required to pray with prayer beads

Protestants are not required to avoid prayer beads.

I think the more important issue here is praying to Mary.

Good POINT!

Siguro nga my mga Evangelicals na nagamit ng rosary. ANG TANONG, GINAGAMIT BA NILA ANG ROSARY FOR MARY?

"Is praying the rosary Scriptural?"

[nikeairviturin]

and repetitive prayer.

Roman Catholics are not required to pray with prayer beads

Protestants are not required to avoid prayer beads.




I think the more important issue here is praying to Mary.

[SmartDessa]

I thought the commandments were compounded into 2?

[Pinas_Dugyot]

GINISA MO SARILI MO SA SARILI MONG MANTIKA ELCiD.

Christianity holds that the essential element of the commandment not to make "any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above" is "and bow down and worship it". Roman Catholicism specifically holds that one may build and use "likenesses", as long as the object is not worshipped. As a result, many Roman Catholic Churches and services feature images, some feature statues, and in some Orthodox services, icons are venerated. For most Roman Catholics, this practice is understood as fulfilling the observance of this commandment, as they understand these images are not being worshipped.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments

ANO KAMO? AS LONG AS THEY ARE NOT BEING WORSHIPPED???

[SmartDessa]

and repetitive prayer.

I don't think repetitive prayer is wrong.

it's prayer, as long as the one praying really means what he is praying about.

I always call on the Lord's Name, sometimes I did it by the hundreds because it's so refreshing and enjoyable.

[ElCid]

http://www.pinoyexchange.com/forums/...d.php?t=418375

bukiing si Mr. High Blood sa mga evangelicals

Alin naman ang nabuking? Ang nabuking dito lalo mo lang reinforce yung thread topic ng contradiction sa aral ebanghelico ukol sa pagbilang sa sampung utos at sa paratang na pagdagdag bawas ng mga catolico dito. Fine. Totoo ba? Hindi. Tulad nga ng sinabi ko ng una na hindi mo naman naintindihan - wala namang numbering sa exodo at sa deuteronomio kung alin ang una hanggang sampung utos - pag may inilabas kang numbering aamin ako talo ako sa puntong ito. Pero may inilabas ka ba Jeric? WALA.

Ikalawang punto - at lalong mas mahalaga - baket di mo inaddress na yung sampung utos ng catolico at yung sampung utos ng mga luterano pareho ang ginamit na bilang yung kay San Agustin. So kung paniniwalaan ka - lalabas yung kapwa mo EBANGHELICO NAGDAGDAG BAWAS DIN sa sampung utos. That point might have escaped your logic. Sabihin mo na naman wala kayong pakialam sa mga Luterano na kapwa niyo ebanghelico at yun galing pa sa mga orihinal na repormista. So lalo mo lang pinalilinaw yung punto na may CONTRADICTION talaga ang aral ng mga ebanghelico ukol sa sampung utos na isa na namang kahipocrituhan dahil sa paggamit ng 2 pamantayan. Baket kami pinupuna ngayon na dinoctor o dinagdag/bawas namin ang sampung utos samantalang ang mga Luterano na kapwa niyo ebanghelico ganun din naman ang ginagamit na pagbilang at paghahati hati na magkasama ang dalawang versiculo sa unang utos hango sa dibisyon ni San Agustin?

Salamat Jeric for proving my point again :P. Saka di ko pinepersonal ang mga ebanghelico - aral yung pinag-uusapan dito. Si jerci umuusok na ilong sa pagkapikon lols :P. Cool ka lang aral pinag-uusapan dito walang personalan :P

[nikeairviturin]

eto ang punto:

martin Luther= author ng Sola Fide at Sola Scri
Jeric= pinaniniwalaan ang Sola Fide at Sola Scriptura

Martin Luther= naniniwala sa pagdadasal ng rosaryo
Jeric= hindi naniniwala sa pagdadasal ng rosaryo

One word: Ipokrito!

Paki ba namin kina martin luther Diyos ba namin sya?

Hindi kami protestate ok?

one word: SHUT UP

[jeric92002]

Author lang ng sola scriptura at nagdadasal ng rosaryo contradict na sa belief ko?

gising gising ng konti nike dahil wala sa tenets of faith namin ang pagdadasal sa rosaryo lalo na kay Mary ok?

at wala kaming pakielam kay Marting Luther ok?

one word - Shut Up! ok?

[ElCid]

Author lang ng sola scriptura at nagdadasal ng rosaryo contradict na sa belief ko?

Hindi belief mo lang pinag-uusapan dito kungdi belief ng mga ebanghelico pangkalahatan. Contra contra. Kanya kanyang imbento. Kung ayaw mo maniwala sa mga turo ng kapwa mo ebanghelico malaya kang mag-imbento ng sa iyo tulad ng ginagawa mo ngayon.

gising gising ng konti nike dahil wala sa tenets of faith namin ang pagdadasal sa rosaryo lalo na kay Mary ok?

at wala kaming pakielam kay Marting Luther ok?

O diba lalong malinaw na magkaiba kayo ng aral ng mga Luterano, Anglicano, Episcopalian na kapwa mo ebanghelico ukol sa paulit-ulit na panalangin at pananalangin kay Maria? Salamat ulit Jeric for proving my point na kayo may CONTRADICTION talaga sa aral ukol sa rosaryo at paulit-ulit na panalangin. Ikaw tutol at yung backup mo na si dugyot yung ibang ebanghelico - ok lang. Di ba't kahipocrituhan naman talaga ang gumagamit ng dalawang pamantayan? Sinasabi mo mali pero gawain din pala ng kapwa mo ebanghelico? Sino ngayon sa inyo ang dapat paniwalaan eh pareho kayong sola scriptura at sola fide? Tigilan na pangloloko at pangliligaw sa tao Jeric.

one word - Shut Up! ok?

Huag kang pikon Jeric. Napaghahalatang talo eh lols :P. Aral lang pag-usapan natin huag ka namang mamersonal. O lumalabas lang talaga yung tunay mong kulay ha Jeric? :P

[banimalek]

Pikon si Jeric aka combatrin kasi bistado ang pagka-ipokrito niya, tama si Elcid ang aral nila ay galing kay Luther pero kinontra ang may akda ng aral nila, iyan si Jeric

[ebragais]

ngayon alam nyo na kung bakit hindi kayo kilala ni Hesus p.

Mateo 7:22 Marami ang mangagsasabi sa akin sa araw na yaon, Panginoon, Panginoon, hindi baga nagsipanghula kami sa iyong pangalan, at sa pangalan mo'y nangagpalayas kami ng mga demonio, at sa pangalan mo'y nagsigawa kami ng maraming gawang makapangyarihan?

Mateo 7:23 At kung magkagayo'y ipahahayag ko sa kanila, Kailan ma'y hindi ko kayo nangakilala: magsilayo kayo sa akin, kayong manggagawa ng katampalasanan.

Mateo 15:8 Ang bayang ito'y iginagalang ako ng kanilang mga labi; Datapuwa't ang kanilang puso ay malayo sa akin.

Mateo 15:9 Datapuwa't walang kabuluhan ang pagsamba nila sa akin, Na nagtuturo ng kanilang pinakaaral ang mga utos ng mga tao.

Marcos 7:7 Datapuwa't walang kabuluhan ang pagsamba nila sa akin, Na nagtuturo ng kanilang pinakaaral ng mga utos ng mga tao.

[B]Marcos 7:8 Nilisan ninyo ang utos ng Dios, at inyong pinanghahawakan ang sali't-saling sabi ng mga tao. [/B]

Marcos7:9 At sinabi niya sa kanila, Totoong itinatakuwil ninyo ang utos ng Dios, upang mangaganap ninyo ang inyong mga sali't-saling sabi.

Mar 7:13 Na niwawalang kabuluhan ang salita ng Dios ng inyong sali't-saling sabi, na inyong itinuro: at nagsisigawa kayo ng iba pang maraming bagay na kawangis nito.

[ebragais]

nakakatawa nga! hindi raw nila dinadasalan yon pero ginaganap naman! bakit ang pagganap nito kahit hindi mo sinasamba pero ginagawa o sinasalita mo naman isa na rin yan sa pagdadasal...

[hisagi123]

I don't think repetitive prayer is wrong.

it's prayer, as long as the one praying really means what he is praying about.

I always call on the Lord's Name, sometimes I did it by the hundreds because it's so refreshing and enjoyable.

smartdessa, eto sasabihin ko sa magandang paraan.

hindi maganda yung nagbibigay sariling kuro-kuro pagdating sa aral ng diyos.

anu ba ang sabi sa biblia pagdating sa "repetitive prayer" ?

Matthew 6:7
At sa pananalangin ninyo ay huwag ninyong gamitin ang walang kabuluhang paulitulit, na gaya ng ginagawa ng mga Gentil: sapagka't iniisip nilang dahil sa kanilang maraming kasasalita ay didinggin sila. [Ang Dating Biblia]

sana malinaw na to.


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at tungkol naman sa mga protestants,lutherans,evangelicals, etc.

nakakatuwa kayo panoorin.

[hisagi123]

at isa pa, panalangin dapat ang tawag, hindi dasal.

hindi matatagpuan sa biblia ang salitang dasal kundi panalangin.

[ElCid]

Di naman lingid sa inyo ang pagkamuhi ng mga ebanghelico sa paggamit ng imahe sa usaping pangrelihiyon. Di na din lingid sa lahat na gagamitin nila ang Exo 20:4 para patunayan na yan ipinagbabawal ng Dios sa biblia. Tama naman kaya? Natural hindi. Kung masama ang paggawa ng imahe per se baket ang Dios nag-utos ng ilang ulit na gumawa ng imahe: Exo 25:18, Num 21:8-9 etc. Kokontrahin ba naman ng Dios ang sarili niya? Ano ngayon ang masama? Hindi ang imahe per se kungdi ang pagsamba sa imahe.

So nasaan ang contradiction dito? Alam niyo ba na ang pangunahing repormista at ebanghelico na si Martin Luther at ang mga Luterano gumagamit din ng imahe? Ano ebidensiya?

Martin Luther, in Germany, initially more hostile, finally allowed, indeed encouraged, the display of a restricted range of religious imagery in churches so long as viewers were reminded that images are symbolic of the divine, and are not holy in themselves (in fact the Catholic position also). For a few years Lutheran altarpieces like the Last Supper by the younger Cranach were produced in Germany, especially by Luther's friend Lucas Cranach, to replace Catholic ones, often containing portraits of leading reformers as the apostles or other protagonists, but retaining the traditional depiction of Jesus.

There was also a violent propaganda war fought partly with popular prints by both sides; these were often highly scurrilous caricatures of the other side and their doctrines. On the Protestant side, portraits of the leading reformers were popular, and the likenesses were sometimes shown as Apostles and other figures in Biblical scenes such as the Last Supper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Reformation_and_art

Imagine, gumagamit din pala mga repormista ng mga imahe tapos yung mga pagmumukha pa ng mga repormista gingagamit bilang mga kapalit ng mga mukha ng mga apostol! Di ba isang malaking contradiction at kahipocrituhan na naman ito sa mga ebanghelico na nagbabawal sa paggamit ng imahe? Kapwa nila ebanghelico gumagamit din pala ng imahe at yung pangunahing repormista na si Lutero nagpopromote pa nito!

Luther’s Arguments for Images

Luther responded to Karlstadt’s argument that the Scriptures forbid images by referring to passages that appear to teach the exact opposite. He used four examples from the Old Testament and two from the New Testament. He cited the altars erected by Noah and Abraham (Genesis 8:20; 12:7), the cherubs on the ark of the covenant (Exodus 25:18; 37:7), and Paul and the sculpture on the ship (Acts 28:11). He responded to Karlstadt’s arguments based on the first and second commandment by saying, “ What is forbidden here is the adoration and not the making of images…one can have or make images, but one should not adore them.”[1] For Luther the prohibition against making “graven images” refers to the first commandment, “you shall not have other gods beside me.” Furthermore, Luther distinguished between exterior idolatry, which included the cult of images, and a more dangerous interior idolatry, namely the idols which every person has in their heart.[2] He did not regard the discussion on the first commandment as very important and he doubted whether the iconoclasts would be convinced of his arguments anyways. Luther found it interesting to say that images were forbidden in Scripture when God had given Moses strict commandments on how to build the ark. In those instructions God gives Moses detailed instructions on where the cherubim are to be placed and how they are to look (Exodus 25:18-20). Luther argues that if God did not intend for us to have images then he would not have commanded Moses to place the cherubim on the very placed he was to worshipped. In regards to Paul in Acts 28:11 Luther believed that Luke placed this story into the text to show that outward things could do no harm to a believers faith so long as they were not trusted in.[3] Luther also argued that Moses erected the image of the brazen serpent before the people of Israel. He asks if Moses, who gave the Law forbid the making of images then why did he in turn make one? Luther again attacks Karlstadt with Scripture by referring to Paul’s address to the Areopagus in Acts 17. Here Paul walks around and sees all of the idols of the city and he confronts the crowds and calls out their idolatry but he never overturns the idols. Luther writes,

“He preached against their idols, but he overthrew none by force. And you would rush in, create an uproar, break down the altars and overthrow the images? Do you really believe you can abolish the images on this wise? Nay, you will only set them up more firmly.”[4]

In regards to making images Luther wrote, “But it is impossible for me to hear and bear it in mind without forming mental images of it in my heart. For whether I will or not, when I hear of Christ, an image of a man hanging on a cross takes form in my heart, just as the reflection of my face naturally appears in the water when I look into it. If it is not a sin but good t have the image of Christ in my heart, why should it be a sin to have it in my eyes?”[5]

So baket tumututol yung ibang mga ebanghelico na nangopya lang naman ng doctrina kay Lutero lalo na sa sola scriptura at sola fide sa paggamit ng imahe samantalang mga pangunahing repormista pala gumagamit nito? Pano natin ngayon paniniwalaan yung mga taong ito na contra contrahan ang sinasabi? Hindi ba ito pangloloko tahasan sa mga taong bayan? Kung ipinagbabawal ng Dios ang paggawa at paggamit ng imahe sa loob ng iglesia sa biblia - baket di nagkakaisa yung mga sumasampalataya sa doctrinang SOLA SCRIPTURA UKOL DITO? Ipinagbabawal nila sa iba pero ginagamit din pala sa loob ng hanay ng mga ebanghelico? Di ba kahipocrituhan na naman ito?

[nikeairviturin]

DOUBLE STANDARD...

Author lang ng sola scriptura at nagdadasal ng rosaryo contradict na sa belief ko?

gising gising ng konti nike dahil wala sa tenets of faith namin ang pagdadasal sa rosaryo lalo na kay Mary ok?

at wala kaming pakielam kay Marting Luther ok?

one word - Shut Up! ok?

[SmartDessa]

smartdessa, eto sasabihin ko sa magandang paraan.

hindi maganda yung nagbibigay sariling kuro-kuro pagdating sa aral ng diyos.

anu ba ang sabi sa biblia pagdating sa "repetitive prayer" ?

Matthew 6:7
At sa pananalangin ninyo ay huwag ninyong gamitin ang walang kabuluhang paulitulit, na gaya ng ginagawa ng mga Gentil: sapagka't iniisip nilang dahil sa kanilang maraming kasasalita ay didinggin sila. [Ang Dating Biblia]

sana malinaw na to.

Matthew 26:44
And leaving them, He went away again and prayed a third time, saying the same word again.

The Lord Jesus Himself repeated His prayer 3 times.

What the Lord means in Matt.6:7 is to not babble empty words, repeating empty words.

We should follow the Lord's example to pray our prayer repeatedly but not in an empty and vain manner.

at isa pa, panalangin dapat ang tawag, hindi dasal.

hindi matatagpuan sa biblia ang salitang dasal kundi panalangin.

dasal, panalangin. parehas lang yun

mas tagalog lang panalangin.

dasal came from the word rezar in spanish

http://tl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panalangin

[SmartDessa]

Martin Luther is not pope.

[hisagi123]

Matthew 26:44
And leaving them, He went away again and prayed a third time, saying the same word again.

The Lord Jesus Himself repeated His prayer 3 times.

What the Lord means in Matt.6:7 is to not babble empty words, repeating empty words.

We should follow the Lord's example to pray our prayer repeatedly but not in an empty and vain manner.

This does not justify the use of the rosary. (repetitive praying/babbling empty words using a set of beads). Jesus did not encourage us to do repetitive prayers, if you are hoping that this verse will justify it.

Besides, did the rosary orginated in christian culture?

http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm

Historical note: Roman Catholics borrowed the idea of praying with beads from the pagan religions who were already using them hundreds of years before: In 456 AD, Hindus are thought to have introduced the concept of praying with beads to the world. The earliest reference to a rosary (boberkhas) is in their "Jain Canon" (456 AD) These boberkhas had various numbers of beads 6,9,12,18,36 (any sub-multiple of 108) Islam (610 AD) uses a rosary of 99 beads, one for each of the names of God. Buddhists have 108 prayer beads on the string. The Rosary is of pagan origin and no Christian prior to 1000 AD used beads to pray.Question #1: Did Jesus forbid repetitive prayer using Rosary Beads?

[SmartDessa]

This does not justify the use of the rosary. (repetitive praying/babbling empty words using a set of beads). Jesus did not encourage us to do repetitive prayers, if you are hoping that this verse will justify it.

Besides, did the rosary orginated in christian culture?

http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm

I never justified the use of prayer beads, or any pre-constructed prayer.

a prayer should be coming from the spirit, constructed by our soul, and released by our physical mouth. not from a piece of paper or booklet written by another person.

nevertheless, if the christian prays a pre-constructed prayer, and repeats it in a repetitive manner, if he prays it in spirit and truthfulness to speak with his God, then it's all fine. but then one should not be dependent on such pre-constructed prayer and will only pray such prayer, there should be growth in us that we ourselves can pray for what the Lord desires.

I pray the Lord's prayer. and i pray it so many times, because it exercises my spirit.



if we tell people "I am right" and "you are wrong" in a non-edifying way, then what's the point? the Word of God is for edifying, not to destroy your brother just because he is at mistake.

we need to be equipped with the full knowledge and be able to discern the needs of our brothers/sisters in a way that it is not offensive, and destructive.