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  1. #1
    Los Indios Bravos albertus magnus's Avatar
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    Majapahit and Srivijayan Connection: Pre-Hispanic Philippines

    The proselytization by the Spaniards and the banning of trading/seafaring ways, and the banning of the carrying of arms finally made the islanders pacified and ISOLATED from their other Malay brethren(Spaniards only sanctioned the official Galleon trade for their profit as well as some mestizos'). The Spaniards were guilty also of cultural extinction, now we've forgotten our past, our connections with our Southeast Asian brothers and made our people INDOLENT(noticed by French and Austrian observers and even by JOSE RIZAL in the 19th century who also noted the cultural degradation as compared to other colonized states in Southeast Asia). Fortunately, a renaissance about our past is having a resurgence.
    (Note: The probable reason why the Spaniards banned the trading-seafaring ways of the Indios or East Indians and relegated the trading to Chinese traders who were kept under control in a district called Parian(Spaniards didn't have a port in China unlike the Portuguese and so relied on the coming of the Chinese traders for the China goods), and of course to the state-sanctioned Galleon trade was the lessons learned from the Tondo conspiracy or the Revolt of the Lakans or the Brunei-Japan-Tondo connections. The Spaniards feared ALLIANCES would be forged again with its neigbors such as the SULU SULTANATE, MALACCA SULTANATE, BRUNEI SULTANATE, AND TO JAPAN to topple their colony. link: http://senorenrique.blogspot.com/2008/08/t...of-1587-88.html )

    Our ancestors were well-respected for their valor and sought after as mercenaries by various Kingdoms in Southeast Asia. The Siamese, the Acehnese, the Burmese, the Malaccans, even the Cambodians asked for assistance in the defense of their states, or in their securing of their strategic interests in the Geopolitics in the region. We even supplied the Japanese with arqubuses and cannons made in Mainila during Prehispanic times.
    link: http://nippihistory.hp.infoseek.co.jp/lusunghis-e.htm

    Our ancestors were all over maritime southeast asia, getting sandalwood from East Timor, having trading outposts in Malacca with one in particular Surya Diraja supplying tons of pepper to China and another relative had a rank only lower to the Sultan of Malacca himself acting as temenggong diraja or Chief of Customs and Police Chief all rolled into one.

    These might change most people's point of view that the Pre colonial Philippines is like a No Man's Land in the middle of the ocean with no trade contacts with its neighbors and that we owe to our colonizers our culture and civilization:
    A)
    Map of Spice Routes or Maritime Silk route as verified by UNESCO:
    http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/mapSpiceRoutes.GIF
    http://www.maritimeheritage.org/ports/philippines.html

    B)
    http://www.quezon.ph/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/lcix.gif
    "The Laguna Coppeplate Inscription http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laguna_...te_Inscription is the oldest historical document in the Philippines that dates back to 922 AD and written in ancient Kavi and in a language of mixed Old Malay, Old Tagalog, Sanskrit and Old Javanese. This document records that the[b] ruler of Tondo, Jayadewa, carried the Hindu title Senapati or military commander and acted as supreme judge of all the lords of the nearby settlements. "

    Among the counted allies mentioned in that oldest historical document unearthed so far, include the Hindu Kingdom of Mataram in MEDANG, JAVA or Medang in Sumatra(?) and Devata/Diwata/Butuan in Mindanao. Interestingly, the King or Raja or Pema-Gat or Lord of Medang was acting as the representative in behalf of the Chieftain or King or Pema-Gat or Lord of Butuan or Dewata. And the Lord of Tondo with his representative acted as the Supreme Judge on that particular dispute and gave the PARDON.

    C)Gold of Ancestors and the Philippines' Hindu Past
    Forgotten Philippines: Gold Of Ancestors 1 Part 1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DIwuvg_VnU

    Forgotten Philippines: Gold Of Ancestors 1 Part 2 : THE SACRED THREAD AND THE KINARI
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYtBVHrCK5w
    http://www.ayalamuseum.org/images/ayalamain/exhibitions/gold/kinnari-thumb.png
    http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/8871/tantricjewel.jpg
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3185/2501303848_e3e99152f6_m.jpg

    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2397/2501297818_5a9901620e_m.jpg
    http://www.ayalamuseum.org/images/ayalamain/exhibitions/feature/gold-title.png
    An interesting ramification presented by above video link if one will reflect the status of the owner of the Sacred Thread... http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2268/2501304726_a89d929fb2.jpg
    http://www.marketmanila.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/11.jpg
    which is similar to the Boxer codex http://www.quezon.ph/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/boxer-codex.jpg
    ... is the owner a Sovereign of such a High Status, which will intimidate various rulers of other kingdoms in Southeast Asia if they would be standing side by side by each other. A ruler wearing a golden Sash or UPAVITA would intimidate or humiliate any Majapahit and Srivijayan royalties from neighboring kingdoms. Imagine a Golden Rajah with his Gold warriours would surely outclass any royals and warriors. Is the owner of that Golden Sacred thread a Srivijayan? Remember the other Golden rule: He who has the gold makes the rules. jk

    The maritime thalossocracy or alliance of rajanates called by the early Chinese as Sanfotsi and by the early Arabs as Zabag which Coedes collectively called Srivijayas stemming from a Kedukan bukit inscription found near Palembang was said to have a powerful competitor in the south called Wakwak by the early Arabs or Toupo by the early chinese. Is the Butuan-Toubok(Cotobato)area fits the bill for the powerful competitior of Sanfotsi-Zabag? The Tausugs of the Sulu Sultanate were said to be originally Bisayan migrants from Butuan. The Surigao Treasures billed as Gold of Ancestors is in the area of GOLD RICH BUTUAN.

    A sword hilt from the Surigao Treasure
    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2359/2500471783_4b234f9152_m.jpg

    http://www.quezon.ph/2008/05/19/our-...-looking-back/
    Philippine gold artifacts in general tend to be more elaborate and better crafted than most from West Borneo.

    Harrisson looked at the Dr Arturo de Santos collection (part of which was acquired by the Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas) as well, and observed that “…the range of Philippine gold jewelry…includes many pieces of a complexity and finesse that is beyond anything attempted in Borneo” in so far as what had been found at that time (Harrisson 1968: 56).

    Throughout Indonesia there was a relationship between gold artifacts and the ruling aristocracy, in the class-power centers which developed on the coastal plains around the middle of the 1st millenium AD (Harrisson 1968:44). Precious metals were worked ‘exclusively in those areas where the influence of Hinduism was strongest’: he includes Java, Bali, southern Celebes and the coastal districts of Borneo. These areas developed as centers with established hierarchies, which necessitated the conspicuous display of wealth (Harrisson 1968: 47).

    There was a demand for gold, which the Philippines could have supplied. It would be reasonable to suggest that one of the main sources of Javanese and Bornean gold was the Philippines. That trade would have been important enough to have been direct, by-passing minor pass-on players say, in Sarawak or Sulawesi. Moreover, the early interest in gold from the Philippines would have been in the raw material rather than wrought artifacts. In turn, local interest would have been on goods not made of gold, which they had plenty of.
    http://www.marketmanila.com/archives/the-m...#comment-104413
    quotes Alcina, a Jesuit writing about a hundred years after Legaspi, the conquistadores of the Philippines in the 16th century:
    “I do remember that once when I was solemnizing a marriage of a Bisayan principala, she was so weighed down with jewelry that it caused her to stoop — to me it was close to an arroba or so (1 arroba = 25 lbs.), which was a lot of weight for a girl of twelve. Then again, I also heard it said that her grandfather had a jar full of gold which alone weighed five or six arrobas. Even this much is little in comparison to what they actually had in ancient times.”

    --------------------------
    link: http://www.marketmanila.com/archives/the-m...#comment-105021
    The crafters of Surigao treasures were most probably Hindu Bisayans, if not, their allies. The Rajanate of Butuan had alliance with the Rajanate of Cebu. Intermarriages of the royals between the two rajanates were common. And so the comment of pupuplatter that the Hindu-Animists Cebuanos would probably raid their allies, their Hindu-Animists brethren in Butuan, is most probably incorrect. While, the Tausug Muslims of Sulu were originally Hindu-animists Bisayans from Butuan having been proselytized by the Bruneians. And the Tausugs indeed raided their pacified Bisayan brothers only during the time of the Spanish colonial perod as they became Muslim while the latter became Christians.

    King Humabon of Cebu, King Siaiu of Mazaua, and King Colambu of Butuan were blood kins accdg to the history books.
    source: http://www.cebuasia.com/2008/01/29/butuano...ebu-and-mazaua/
    D)Southeast Asia Geopolitics
    Controlling the Straits of Malacca

    As evidenced by history, the country that succeeded in controlling the narrow strait between the Malay Peninsula and the island of Sumatra would gain complete control of China's maritime silk route and thus become a thalossocracy - a trading empire. The Srivijaya of South Sumatra did so in 670 AD, the Chola of Southeast India in 1026 AD, the Madjapahit of Java in 1343 AD, the Sultanate of Malacca in 1400 AD, and finally the Portuguese in 1512 AD.*17

    When the Portuguese arrived in Southeast Asia in 1500 AD, they witnessed LUZON's active involvement in the political and economic affairs of those who sought to take control of this economically strategic highway. For instance, the former SULTAN OF MALACCA decided to retake his city from the Portuguese with a fleet of ships from LUZON in 1525 AD.*18 In 1529 AD, the Sultanate of Atjeh on the northern tip of Sumatra became powerful enough to consider controlling the Straits of Malacca. LUZON ships formed part of the Atjehnese fleet that attacked key settlements along the straits. At the same time, LUZON warriors formed part of the opposing BATAK-MENANGKABAU army that besieged Atjeh or ACEH.*19 On the mainland, LUZON warriors aided the BURMESE KING in his invasion of SIAM in 1547 AD. At the same time, LUZON warriors fought alongside the KING OF THAILAND and faced the same elephant army of the Burmese king in the defence of the Siamese capital at Ayuthaya.*20

    The Portuguese were not only witnesses but also direct beneficiaries of LUZON's involvement. Many Lucoes, as the Portuguese called the people of LUZON, chose MALACCA as their base of operations because of its strategic importance. When the Portuguese finally took the MALACCA in 1512 AD, the resident Lucoes held important government posts in the former sultanate. They were also large-scale exporters and ship owners that regularly sent junks to China, Brunei, Sumatra, Siam and Sunda. One LUZON official by the name of SURYA DIRAJA annually sent 175 tons of pepper to China and had to pay the Portuguese 9000 cruzados in gold to retain his plantation. His ships became part of the first Portuguese fleet that paid an official visit to the Chinese empire in 1517 AD.

    In 1591 AD, the CAMBODIAN KING Phra Unkar Langara sent a gift of two royal elephants, gems and horses to the lords of LUZON to petition them to aid him in the war against SIAM.
    E)Trade Missions to China (source: http://nippihistory.hp.infoseek.co.jp/lusunghis-e.htm )
    The name Lusung(LUZON) first appeared in Chinese History in 1373 AD in the Ming Annals. In this document, Lusung was one of the first to answer the call for tribute missions to the new Ming Dynasty [1368 - 1644]. It was Brunei who first responded in 1371 AD, followed by Liuchiu in 1372, and then by Lusung in 1373 AD*11.

    Despite the fact that it made its first appearance on Chinese records as late as 1373 AD, evidences suggests that the Chinese had long known the existence of LUZON as far back as the Sung Dynasty[960 - 1278 AD]. The presence of thousands of recognisable pieces of Sung and Yuan Dynasty porcelains found in ancient burial sites in the Province of Pampanga and Manila suggests an active trade with China long before the Ming period.

    In the mid-1400s, the Ming Empire further limited the number of tribute missions from overseas when it did not compensate the cost of maintaining foreign embassies and entertaining foreign envoys. In 1550 AD, the Ming Empire finally put an end to overseas trade altogether.

    The Ming Empire's ban on overseas trade ironically became a blessing to LUZON. The port cities in Fujian and Canton that had been profiting from overseas trade since the Sung Dynasty cannot simply end its trade relations with Southeast Asia just because the central government in Beijing does not see profit from it. Chinese ships from Fujian and Canton continue to smuggle goods out of China. They chose the port cities of Tondo and Mainila in LUZON as a drop off point. Ships from other parts of Asia, mostly Brunei and Malacca would then sail to LUZON to pick up their percentage of the Chinese goods.
    I looked into the BUTUAN archealogical site, recognized by UNESCO as a world heritage site. I was impressed to learn that they not only had advanced boat making and gold crafting skills, but also traded with countries as far away as Persia.



    http://whc.unesco.org/en/tentativelists/2071/
    Satements of authenticity and/or integrity

    The finds were authenticated by the National Museum, and deeper studies by reputable archaeologists were subsequently done. The oldest Chinese ceramic ware found in Butuan were the Yueh and Yueh type ware which dated back to the Five Dynasties (A.D. 907- 960). In a quantitative survey of the ceramics discovered in Butuan, there were representative types from various Asian realms, ranked according to volume: Chinese (10th - 15th centuries A.D.); Khmer/ Cambodian (9th-10th centuries A.D.); Thai (14th - 15th centuries A.D.) pre-Thai Satingpra (900-1100 A.D.); Haripunjaya (800-900 A.D.); pre-trade Vietnamese (11th - 13th centuries A.D.), and PERSIAN (9th - 10th centuries A.D.)
    I wouldn't be surprised if most of the evidence of an advanced civilized Philippine society was suppressed and destroyed while we were conquered by Spain.
    Last edited by albertus magnus; Apr 5, 2010 at 11:51 AM.

  2. #2
    Los Indios Bravos albertus magnus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Maharloka, Mu
    Prehispanic Philippines had intimate connections between various kingdoms in Southeast Asia via royal intermarriages and trade contacts and political alliances(Srivisayas and Majapahit).

    MAJAPAHIT Thalasocracy:
    Prehispanic Philippines with the Kingdom of Luzon and the Kingdom of Sulu known to the Ancient Indonesians as Selurong or Saludong and Soloot respectively were once part of the Majapahit Empire or Madya-pait(similar sounding to the Madya-as confederacy)as mentioned in the Nagakertagama document. By the way, in our local folklores and on some written quasi-historical documents, the Majapahit Maharaja Angka Vijaya or Anka Widjaya, also known to our local historians including National Artist Nick Joaquin, as Soledan took a wife by the name of Empress or Dayang Sasaban of the Kingdom of Sapa and begot a certain Prince named Balagtas.
    Datu Gambang of the Kingdom of Selurung/Saludong/Lusung/Luzon who was related to Urduja according to some was under the suzerainty of the Majapahit. His reign ended with the second invasion by Sultan Bulkeiah of Brunei with his uncle, SriLela, also known as (W)Ong Sum Ping, a Chinese prince of the Ming dynasty. The Sultan married the daughter of the slain king to continue the dynasty of Pasig. Descendants from the royal inter-marriage incuded Lakandula and Soliman.
    Accdg to the will of Pansonum, the sister of Sulaiman I by the name of Lady or Dayang Panginoan was the wife of Prince Balagtas of the Majapahit political dynasty. So Prince Balagtas was a brother in law of Soliman I. A confusion was made by the Muslim Historian Rodil. He confounded Pansonum aka Fernando Malang Balagtas as no other than Lakandula. Pansonum was a grandson of Prince Balagtas while Lakandula was a son of Sulaiman I, the brother-in-law of Prince Balagtas. A descendant of Prince Balagtas was credited for the founding of Namayan by the name of Lakan Takhan(Tagean) as the same manner another descendant Malangsik http://us.geocities.com/kapampanganx/s7_1.html founded the towns of Kandaue (Candaba), Purak (Porac), Macabebe, Baba (Lubao), Pinpin (Sta. Ana), Betis, Uaua (Guagua) and Balayan ning Pambuit (Arayat).
    There has been a confusion of three kingdoms(city-states) in Manila, i.e Kingdom of Tondo, Kingdom of Manila, and Kingdom of Namayan. So from above, you can see the relationships. the Kingdom of Sapa(Zabag?) is synonymous with the Kingdom of Lusung or Selurung and Namayan which is now Sta. Ana was part of that bigger polity, Kingdom of Sapa. Tondo was a capital of Selurung(Lusong or Kingdom of Sapa) and not a separate Kingdom. While Manila was a city-state founded by Ragam with his son, Soliman I and his uncle Srilela or Ong Sum Ping.

    The flag of the Sulu sultanate.In 1380, Karim ul' Makdum and Shari'ful Hashem Syed Abu Bakr, an Arab trader born in Johore, arrived in Sulu from Malacca and established the Sultanate of Sulu and this Sultanate eventually gained great wealth due to its manufacture of fine pearls.[40] Also, at the end of the 15th Century Shariff Mohammed Kabungsuwan of Johor introduced Islam in the island of Mindanao and he subsequently married princess Parmisuli from Mindanao and established the Sultanate of Maguindanao.[41] Islam had spread to other parts of the Visayas and Luzon by the 16th century.
    The Brunei Sultanate, the Aceh Sultanate, the Johore Sultanate, the Sulu Sultanate, the Maguindanao Sultanate, the Manila Rajanate under Soliman, Johore Sultanate and the Malacca Sultanate are all coming from the same clan and founded by the same persons or blood relatives, resulting from the intermarriages of the SriBisayan royalties with the Arabs, Hindus, Chinese and the native nobilities of the host kingdoms they made allies with.

    btw, Paduka Sri Baginda Rajah dan yang di Pertuan Bulkiah, known better in Southeast Asian History as Nakhoda Ragam (the Singing Captain) bragged like many rulers from the same clan, the Sultans of the various Sultanates of Johore, Malacca/Melaka, Aceh, Sulu, Maguindanao, etc. that they had lineages with Alexander the Great and to the prophet of Islam. But most of all He was very proud of his Bisayan lineage. He wore the Chawat with great dignity. -laugh

    What's with this fixation with 'BAHAG' or 'CHAWAT'? -elaugh

    It's like a 'phallic symbol'. The longer the bahag or the chawat, the more royal blood. he he

    It was a symbol of "bisayan" royalty.
    http://www.fullbooks.com/The-Pagan-T...f-Borneo1.html
    How early the Arab doctrines were taught in Brunei is impossible to state with any precision. Local tradition ascribes their introduction to the renowned Alak ber Tata, afterwards known as Sultan Mohammed. Like most of his subjects this warrior was a BISAYA, and in early life he was not a Mohammedan, not indeed a civilised potentate at all, to judge by conventional standards; for the CHIEF MARK OF HIS ROYAL DIGNITY was an IMMENSE CHAWAT, or loin-cloth, carried as he walked by eighty men, forty in front and forty behind. He is the earliest monarch of whom the present Bruneians have any knowledge, a fact to be accounted for partly by the brilliance of his exploits
    Thus the present royal house of Brunei is derived from three sources -- Arab, BISAYA, and Chinese. The coronation ceremony as still maintained affords an interesting confirmation of this account.
    On that occasion the principal minister wears a turban and Haji outfit, the two next in rank are dressed in Chinese and Hindu fashion, while the fourth wears a CHAWAT over his trousers to represent the BISAYAS; and each of these ministers declares the Sultan to be divinely appointed.
    Then after the demonstration of loyalty the two gongs -- one from MENANGKABAU, the other from JOHORE -- are beaten, and the Moslem high priest proclaims the Sultan and preaches a sermon, declaring him to be a descendant of Sri Turi Buana, the PALEMBANG SRIVIJAYAN chief who founded the early kingdom of Singapore in 1160 A.D., who reigned in that island for forty-eight years, and whose descendants became the royal family of MALACCA.
    ... ikinararangal kong masabing sa aking mga ugat ay dumadaloy ang dugo ng isang BISAYA. Tuwing dadalaw sa aking kaharian ang mga sugong ****** at Arabe, ang pinakamahalagang palamuti nila'y ang mahabang CHAWAT, na laging itinataas sa harapan ko ng apatnapu katao. Kapag iyo'y ibinigkis ko sa aking baywang upang humanda sa pakikitalad, ang pagkakabigkis ay maayos at ang paghahamok ay laging pinagtatagumpayan...
    Mula sa Malaka hanggang Maynila ay kilalaang lahat ang pangalang Nakoda Ragam na kanilang pinanganganinuhan...
    rough English translation
    I am proud that from my veins flowed the blood of a BISAYA. When the ambassadors from China and Arabia would come, the most important insignia/emblem is the long CHAWAT, which is always raised from my front by 40 people....
    From MALACCA TO MANILA, THE NAME NAKODA RAGAM WILL BE WELL KNOWN AS THEIR LORD
    thus said, Paduka Sri Baginda Rajah dan yang di Pertuan Bulkiah, known better in Southeast Asian History as Nakhoda Ragam, great grandfather of the last ruler of Manila, Soliman III

    The Islamization of Southeast Asia starting from Aceh then to Malacca, Johore, Brunei, Sulu and then to Manila finally ended the Hindu Majapahit Empire. Majapahit couldn't control anymore the rising of the Malacca sultanate in the control of the Strait because of succession problems.
    The Fall of Luzon precipitated the Decline of Majapahit? -elaugh


    SRIVIJAYA/ZABAG/SANFOTSI Thalasocracy:
    The location was described as rich in alluvial gold. During the mid-10th century, Akbar al-Sin states that:

    "near Zabaj is a mountain called the Mountain of Fire, which it is not possible to approach. Smoke escapes from it by day and a flame by night, and from its foot comes forth a spring of cold fresh water and a spring of hot water."

    The palace of the king of Zabag, again the Arab name for Sanfotsi, was described in Muslim texts as located at the water's edge of an estuary close enough to the "bay of Zabag" that saltwater flowed during high tide and freshwater during ebb. Such an estuary, it's been suggested earlier, was known in the local language as sapa, sabang or sapang from which the Arab place-name "Zabag" would be derived.

    Abu Zayd said that the kingdom of Zabag faced China, probably referring to the southern port of Canton, which would have been directly across the Nanhai (South Sea) to the northwest.

    This geographical description is confirmed by Mas'udi who states that the kings of the Khmer kingdom (Cambodia) face toward the kingdom of Zabag during their morning prayers i.e., toward the East, the sunrise.
    ...those clues will give us the true location of the capital of Zabaj or Zabai or Zabag as the early Moslem Arabs called the Southeast Asian thalossocracy/thalasocracy equated as Sanfotsi or Shilifoshi as it was known by the early Chinese writers and termed Srivijayan empire by the French historian Coedes.

    For one thing, Palembang, which was highly favored by western academicians as the capital of Zabaj or Sanfotsi or Srivijaya, was due south of the Khmer kingdom as well as the Kingdom of Champa and not due east as according to the Abu Zaid chronicles, where the true location should be of the capital of Srivijaya-Sanfotsi-Zabaj being the place of residence of the Maharaja or Mihraj.

    From this map...
    http://www.reliefweb.int/mapc/asi_se/reg/seasia.gif
    If you'll draw a horizontal line from Khmer, or Champa which are now Cambodia, and Vietnam, then, traversing or passing due east(Kings of Khmers faced towards the east during their morning prayers)... you will hit among the Philippine isles as the location of the capital of the Mihraj of Zabaj.

    From the archive, below, we can say that the confusion can be attributed to Coedes. Coedes favored Palembang simply because the Bukit inscription(Srivijaya meaning 'the Glorious one' was mentioned in that document) was found near it. It is like saying the Kingdom of tondo was centered in Laguna because the laguna copperplate inscription was found there...
    http://www.archive.org/stream/indiaandjava...468mbp_djvu.txt
    From Chinese sources we learn that a Hinduised kingdom formerly known as Shrivijaya) existed in Sumatra in the 5th century A.D. In the 10th century this kingdom' of Sanfotsi or Che-li-fo-chi (the Chinese rendering of Shrivijaya) ruled over 15 subject states. In the 10th century this Sumatran kingdom was conquered by Java but soon recovered its independence. Early in the 13th century we find again a list of the subject countries of Shrivijaya. In the 14th century it came under the sway of the Majapahit Kingdom oi Java. But till very recently Sumatra was never considered to be very important in comparison with Java.
    M. Georges Coedes has now given (in his Royaume do Shrivijaya, 1018) strong reasons fur reconsidering this opinion. He was the first to identify Palembang with Shrivijava. In the 7th century A.I), Shrivijaya included the isle of Bangka between Sumatra and the Malay Peninsula...
    In the 10th century Chola inscriptions ascribe a Buddhist temple built at Ncgapalam (near Madras) to the Shailcndra kings of Shrivijaya, Shortly after that the Cholas of Southern India attacked Shrivijaya and coquered it for a short time. But it soon recovered its power. Chan. Ja-Kua, a Chinese author of the 13th century, mentions many places in Sumatra, the Malay Peninsula, etc, as acknowledging its supremacy.
    The Shailendra, dynasty of the kingdom of Shrivijaya in Sumatra professed Mahayana Buddhism. Now there is a temple in Central Java, the shrine of Kalasan erected in
    honour of the Mahayana divinity Tara, which was constructed in 778 A.D., by the order of a Buddhist Xing of the Shailendra dynasty of Shrivijaya. As the Kalasan inscription mentions that the temple was in the King's own kingdom, we must conclude that Central Java was included in the empire of the Shailendra sovereigns in the second half of the 8th century. These Srivijayan monarchs built on a grand scale in Java (Borobodur, etc.) and were represented in that island by their viceroys. *
    It was probably also in the 8th century that the Shrivijaya fleet ravaged the coast of Annam (Champa) and penetrated as far as the capital of Cambodia. A Champa inscription of 787 A.D. states that the armies of Java' (spelt Java, not Yava) coming on board ships burnt the shrine of Shri Bhadradhipatishvara. Java here means Shrivijaya and not Java as both Java and Sumatra were called Java alike by foreigners Kamboja (Cambodia) also did not escape those inroads. It is from the narrative of an Arab traveller of the 9th century that we got a dramatic account of it. The Arab merchant Sulayman had travelled in India and China, and his accounts, written in 851 A.D., were commented upon by Abu Zayd Hassan about 916 A.D. In his description of the kingdom of Ziibaj (or Sribuza the Arab name for Shri- vijaya) occurs the following passage: "The King (of Zabai) is known by the title of Maharaja . . . He rules over numerous islands. The islands of Sribuza, Rami (Kamini is another name for Sumatra obviously the Arab traveller does not know that Zabaj, Sribuja and Rami are all in Sumatra) belong to him. . . The maritime kingdom of Kalah (Kra) also acknowledges his sway . . . His own island is as fertile as a land can possibly be and the population is very dense and continuous". Then lie proceeds to describe a curious custom of the Maharajas. Every morning, we are told, the treasurer brought to the king an ingot of gold of the shape of a brick which in the king's presence he threw into a lake near the palace. During the life-time of the king no one would touch these golden bricks. When he would die his successor would have these ingots taken out. After being counted and weighed they would be distributed among the members of the royal family, the generals, the servants and the poor. The number of these golden bricks and their total weight wore then written in the official records and the prestige of a king would depend on the amount of gold.

    The Wealth and Glory of Srivijaya:
    http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/sanfotsizabag.htm
    The Chinese accounts of Sanfotsi and Toupo started from about the 10th century and 5th century respectively, and both continued up until about the late 1200's. During most of this time, the Muslim geographers also wrote on the same area, basing their accounts on the tales of merchants, ambassadors, etc., to the region. Most scholars are in agreement that Sanfotsi was known to the Muslims as Zabag, while Toupo was known as Wak-wak.

    Al-Biruni, a noted writer during this period who travelled to India wrote that Zabag was placed on the eastern side of the Sea of Sanf (Champa or coastal central/south Vietnam). This is confirmed by another famous geographer, Masudi, who stated Zabaj was oriented toward Khmer, which comprises modern Cambodia and South Vietnam, as Ceylon is oriented toward Madurai in South India. It was known as an island rich in gold mines.

    Mas'udi noted that this kingdom had on its east side an ocean of unknown extent, which was basically the same as the Great Eastern Ocean-Sea of the Chinese. The latter ocean was also located to the east of Sanfotsi and Toupo, and it was here that the weilu was located, where waters began to go "downward." It is interesting to note that the Muslim writers mention some interesting flora and fauna when describing the main island of the kingdom of Zabaj. Among them were the dwarf buffalo, the python and the giant camphor tree. Now the dwarf buffalo must be either the tamaraw of Mindoro, or the anoa of Celebes. The python is native to both the Philippines and Borneo, as are the giant camphor trees, although these are more common in Borneo.

    The Muslims had much to say about these islands but we will confine ourselves to a few quotes:

    "In the sea of Champa (off central/south Vietnam) is the empire of Maharaja, the king of the islands, who rules over an empire without limit and has innumerable troops. Even the most rapid vessels could not complete in two years a tour round the isles which are under his possesssion. The territories of this king produce all sorts of spices and aromatics, and no other sovereign of the world gets as much wealth from the soil." (Mas'udi, AD 943)

    "the eastern islands in this ocean (Sea of Champa), which are nearer to China than India, are the islands of Zabaj, called by the Hindus, Suvarnadvipa, i.e. the gold islands*... because you obtain much gold as deposit if you wash only a little of the earth of that country." (Al-Biruni, 1030 AD)

    "On its shores (i.e. of the sea of Sanf or Champa), are the dominions of a King called Mihraj, who possesses a great number of populous and fertile islands, covered with fields and pastures, and producing ivory, camphor, nutmeg, mace, clove, aloeswood, cardamom, cubeb..." (Idrisi, 1150)

    "The gold is plentiful, the horse bits, the chains and necklaces of monkeys, dogs and other beasts are of gold. The chiefs used golden bricks for their houses and forts and official decrees are engraved upon golden paper." (Hordadzbeh)
    "Some people told me they had seen a man who had been to Wak-wak, to do business there. He had told of the riches of the country and the islands. I do not mean that their country is so important, but that the people of Wak-wak are numerous. Among them are men who look like Turks. Of all God's creatures none are more capable or clever in the arts; but they are sly, cunning, deceitful and very quick and knowledgeable in everthing they undertake." (Shariyar, 10th century)

    *On the subject of the gold of Wak-wak, Pigafetta stated that when he reached the Philippines that even the common people had massive gold ornaments and that everyone ate from gold plates and partly covered their houses with gold. The Philippines still has world-class gold reserves.
    To reiterate, the capital or place of residence of the Maharaja/Mihraj of Zabaj/Zabag could be anywhere in the Philippines. According to the moslem writer, Abu Zaid, it was said to be due east from the Kingdom of Khmer(Cambodia) and Champa(Vietnam). Zabaj is equated as Srivijaya or Sribuja or Javaka or Sanfotsi. So western scholars like Coedes could be wrong to place SriVijaya's capital as Palembang in Sumatra. Since earlier chinese writings had stated that Pa-linfong(Chinese rendition) or Palembang was just a dependency of Srivijaya. But later on, elements of Srivijaya remained in Palembang as stated in later Chinese writings. That could be the source of confusion. The word Zabaj/Zabag or Savaka/Javaka means riverine estuary(Sapa or Sabang or Saba-h). Coincidentally, there existed a Kingdom called Sapa, which was equated by our historians as the Kingdom of Namayan. This Kingdom of Sapa was synonymous to the Kingdom of Lusung/Luzon with Tondo as the eastern capital, the seat of the Senapati(commanding general or admiral). While the western capital was the seat of the Commander in Chief, the Mihraj of Zabaj or the Maharaja of Zabag? Placed near the Hagonoy-Masantol-Macabebe estuarine areas according to one historian.
    Note: Java to the Ancient historians didnt mean just the present isle of Java but to encompass the whole Suvarnadvipa or Maritime Southeast Asia. Which later on would mean as the great island of Borneo termed as Java major while the present isle of Java becoming Java minor. Parallel to this is Suvarnadvipa to the ancients would mean the whole Island Southeast Asia but later historians will place it at Sumatra. In other writings, Java Major is Sumatra and not Borneo. Very confusing isn't it?
    http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/6783/toscanelli.jpg
    http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/6508/tosc2.jpg
    http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/2671/laon.jpg


    I would like to end in a very controversial almost fantastical and unbelievable...

    Prof. Arysio Santos, a Brazilian nuclear physicist, equated Lemuria and even Atlantis as the Sunken Sundaland continent now Maritime Southeast Asia. link: http://atlan.org/articles/sci.html

    He said:
    the Seven Golden Cities of Cibola and with the legend of the Eldorado.[LINK: to my article on Pueblo Indians] And these are, as we argue elsewhere, the same as the Seven Islands of the Blest, which are no other than the sunken Eden of the Judeo-Christians. The name of the Golden Cities of Cibola very obviously came from the Dravida civ-pola, meaning "golden city" or, yet, "city of the reds"...

    Moreover, the number seven attached to the cities of Cibola is also the one of the Isles of the Blest and similar sunken realms of the ancients. In fact, the number alludes to the seven great islands of INDONESIA: Java, Sumatra, Borneo, Celebes, PHILIPPINES, New Guinea and the Malay Peninsula, which the ancients counted as an island...


    ...The above is, of course, exactly the message of St. John's Revelation (21:1) concerning the New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem is Atlantis, reborn from its cinders, as a sort of Phoenix, the bird that personifies Paradise in Greek myths. These myths were indeed copied from Egypt who, in turn, cribbed them from India. India and, more exactly, Indonesia, is the true land of the Phoenix, as is relatively easy to show, since it is from there that comes the name of the Benu bird of the Egyptians and that of the Phoenix of the Greeks.
    Well, I have been hearing about these fantastical tales even as early as my childhood days. That the Philippines was a remnant of Lemuria and the coming New Jerusalem. Stephen Oppenheimer, a medical doctor turned archaeo-geneticist, even claimed that Sundaland is the "Eden in the East"-birthplace of Agriculture. link: http://www.pinoyexchange.com/forums/...d.php?t=413753

    BTW: In Medieval Maps, Eden was placed in the Far East, in Greater India as farther than the Ganges River, said to be one of the Four rivers of Paradise. Greater India or India Major or East Indies is synonymous with Southeast Asia. Indonesia is known before as Dutch East Indies. Philippines is Spanish East Indies. While, Malaysia together with the Subcontinent which is presently the country of India was termed collectively as British India or British East Indies. India and Eden has the same etymological origin meaning Farthest End or IND. Eden is in the East as Stephen Oppenheimer said.

    7,000 to 10,000 yrs ago during the end of the last Ice Age was a series of inundations, akin to the Gread Biblical Deluge or Noah's Flood because of the melting of the polar ice caps, which submerged Sundaland. Its elevated mountaintops now becoming the isles of Maritime Southeast Asia.
    http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1399/1413043225_accd9005fc_o.jpg
    http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1377/1413925602_98d3980015_o.jpg
    http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1132/1413044843_e6d68e27d0_o.jpg
    http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1429/1413044877_8828496d96_o.jpg

    Jose Rizal, in his "My Last Farewell", as some people equate Eden, Tarshish and Ophir, Lemuria, Cattigara, Maniola, Cipangu, El Dorado, Suvarnadvipa(Gold Islands) or Chryse Chersonessos, etc with the present day Philippines, did Rizal, at the back of his mind, somewhat also ponder the same thoughts before?

    "Farewell, dear Fatherland, clime of the sun caress'd
    Pearl of the Orient seas, our Eden lost!,
    Gladly now I go to give thee this faded life's best,
    And were it brighter, fresher, or more blest
    Still would I give it thee, nor count the cost."

    Entertaining the idea that the Philippines with the rest of Maritime Southeast Asia as the coming New Jerusalem in the Satya yuga(the coming Golden Age); now, it makes sense why the Zionist Financial elites would like the Philippines to remain in serfhood-slavery or Third World status and try prevent the Rise of the Phoenix.
    http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/inde...owtopic=208414
    http://raefdargon.mysticblogs.com/2008/03/...-planetary-chi/
    http://erleargonza.blogspot.com/2008/11/ph...mblings-of.html

  3. #3
    tl;dr

    But I'm sure that we were not part of either the Majapahit or Sri-Vijaya Empire.

    Some parts paid tributes yes, but for the most part, the Philippines was not within the Empire. In fact, Filipinos at that time were notorious for raiding Majapahit and Sri-Vijayan settlements.

  4. #4
    Los Indios Bravos albertus magnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scherbatsky View Post
    tl;dr

    But I'm sure that we were not part of either the Majapahit or Sri-Vijaya Empire.

    Some parts paid tributes yes, but for the most part, the Philippines was not within the Empire. In fact, Filipinos at that time were notorious for raiding Majapahit and Sri-Vijayan settlements.
    That statement was borne from just reading or relying on our usual Colonial-centered history textbooks whose paradigm was our ancestors were from the boondocks and isolated from their brethren in SEA and that was understandable. I recommend that you read the books written by William Henry Scott. He criticised the concept that was borne from the interpretations done during colonial times(American period), that our ancestors were merely tribal, etc.

    There is such a misconception when we speak of Majapahit or Srivijaya as empires following the western point of view as in Roman empire or any other empires. The correct term is Alliance or Confederacy or thalasocracy. Various independent city states throughout maritime Southeast Asia as they were not continental just acknowledge some form of allegiance to powers of whatever ruling clan predominated on certain period like the Srivijayas and Majapahit.

    I know it's a long read as it is a product of month's of research. If you will just read when you have ample time, then you'll understand whether we were part of or the least influenced by the confederacies or alliances the western academicians like Coedes wrongly termed as empires.

    But the point is, our ancestors were not passive recipient of the trade and influences of the Indian, Persian, Arab, Malay or the Chinese traders but themselves were active traders, seafarers, mercenaries and raiders.

    Remember when the Spaniards came, whatever Hindu-Buddhist or the Srivijayan-Majapahit influence as exhibited by the Laguna Copperplate Inscription as well as the Gold relics found in Butuan and Surigao were all erased with the advent of Islam(Luzon invasion by the Sultan Bulkeiah or Ragam of Brunei and the establishment of the citystate of Manila) on the islands.

    To reiterate:
    http://www.quezon.ph/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/lcix.gif
    "The Laguna Coppeplate Inscription http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laguna_...te_Inscription is the oldest historical document in the Philippines that dates back to 922 AD and written in ancient Kavi and in a language of mixed Old Malay, Old Tagalog, Sanskrit and Old Javanese. This document records that the[b] ruler of Tondo, Jayadewa, carried the Hindu title Senapati or military commander and acted as supreme judge of all the lords of the nearby settlements. "

    Among the counted allies mentioned in that oldest historical document unearthed so far, include the Hindu Kingdom of Mataram in MEDANG, JAVA or Medang in Sumatra(?) and Devata/Diwata/Butuan in Mindanao. Interestingly, the King or Raja or Pema-Gat or Lord of Medang was acting as the representative in behalf of the Chieftain or King or Pema-Gat or Lord of Butuan or Dewata. And the Lord of Tondo with his representative acted as the Supreme Judge on that particular dispute and gave the PARDON.

    C)Gold of Ancestors and the Philippines' Hindu Past
    Forgotten Philippines: Gold Of Ancestors 1 Part 1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DIwuvg_VnU

    Forgotten Philippines: Gold Of Ancestors 1 Part 2 : THE SACRED THREAD AND THE KINARI
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYtBVHrCK5w
    http://www.ayalamuseum.org/images/ayalamain/exhibitions/gold/kinnari-thumb.png
    http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/8871/tantricjewel.jpg
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3185/2501303848_e3e99152f6_m.jpg

    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2397/2501297818_5a9901620e_m.jpg
    http://www.ayalamuseum.org/images/ayalamain/exhibitions/feature/gold-title.png
    An interesting ramification presented by above video link if one will reflect the status of the owner of the Sacred Thread... http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2268/2501304726_a89d929fb2.jpg
    http://www.marketmanila.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/11.jpg
    which is similar to the Boxer codex http://www.quezon.ph/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/boxer-codex.jpg
    ... is the owner a Sovereign of such a High Status, which will intimidate various rulers of other kingdoms in Southeast Asia if they would be standing side by side by each other. A ruler wearing a golden Sash or UPAVITA would intimidate or humiliate any Majapahit and Srivijayan royalties from neighboring kingdoms. Imagine a Golden Rajah with his Gold warriours would surely outclass any royals and warriors. Is the owner of that Golden Sacred thread a Srivijayan? Remember the other Golden rule: He who has the gold makes the rules. jk

    The maritime thalossocracy or alliance of rajanates called by the early Chinese as Sanfotsi and by the early Arabs as Zabag which Coedes collectively called Srivijayas stemming from a Kedukan bukit inscription found near Palembang was said to have a powerful competitor in the south called Wakwak by the early Arabs or Toupo by the early chinese. Is the Butuan-Toubok(Cotobato)area fits the bill for the powerful competitior of Sanfotsi-Zabag? The Tausugs of the Sulu Sultanate were said to be originally Bisayan migrants from Butuan. The Surigao Treasures billed as Gold of Ancestors is in the area of GOLD RICH BUTUAN.

    A sword hilt from the Surigao Treasure
    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2359/2500471783_4b234f9152_m.jpg


    MAJAPAHIT Thalasocracy:
    Prehispanic Philippines with the Kingdom of Luzon and the Kingdom of Sulu known to the Ancient Indonesians as Selurong or Saludong and Soloot respectively were once part of the Majapahit Empire or Madya-pait(similar sounding to the Madya-as confederacy)as mentioned in the Nagakertagama document. By the way, in our local folklores and on some written quasi-historical documents, the Majapahit Maharaja Angka Vijaya or Anka Widjaya, also known to our local historians including National Artist Nick Joaquin, as Soledan took a wife by the name of Empress or Dayang Sasaban of the Kingdom of Sapa and begot a certain Prince named Balagtas.
    Datu Gambang of the Kingdom of Selurung/Saludong/Lusung/Luzon who was related to Urduja according to some was under the suzerainty of the Majapahit. His reign ended with the second invasion by Sultan Bulkeiah of Brunei with his uncle, SriLela, also known as (W)Ong Sum Ping, a Chinese prince of the Ming dynasty. The Sultan married the daughter of the slain king to continue the dynasty of Pasig. Descendants from the royal inter-marriage incuded Lakandula and Soliman.
    Accdg to the will of Pansonum, the sister of Sulaiman I by the name of Lady or Dayang Panginoan was the wife of Prince Balagtas of the Majapahit political dynasty. So Prince Balagtas was a brother in law of Soliman I. A confusion was made by the Muslim Historian Rodil. He confounded Pansonum aka Fernando Malang Balagtas as no other than Lakandula. Pansonum was a grandson of Prince Balagtas while Lakandula was a son of Sulaiman I, the brother-in-law of Prince Balagtas. A descendant of Prince Balagtas was credited for the founding of Namayan by the name of Lakan Takhan(Tagean) as the same manner another descendant Malangsik http://us.geocities.com/kapampanganx/s7_1.html founded the towns of Kandaue (Candaba), Purak (Porac), Macabebe, Baba (Lubao), Pinpin (Sta. Ana), Betis, Uaua (Guagua) and Balayan ning Pambuit (Arayat).
    There has been a confusion of three kingdoms(city-states) in Manila, i.e Kingdom of Tondo, Kingdom of Manila, and Kingdom of Namayan. So from above, you can see the relationships. the Kingdom of Sapa(Zabag?) is synonymous with the Kingdom of Lusung or Selurung and Namayan which is now Sta. Ana was part of that bigger polity, Kingdom of Sapa. Tondo was a capital of Selurung(Lusong or Kingdom of Sapa) and not a separate Kingdom. While Manila was a city-state founded by Ragam with his son, Soliman I and his uncle Srilela or Ong Sum Ping.
    Last edited by albertus magnus; Apr 5, 2010 at 07:18 PM.

  5. #5
    I'm very sure that we have connections with the Indians since many of our words came from them.

    but...
    Quote Originally Posted by Scherbatsky View Post
    tl;dr

    But I'm sure that we were not part of either the Majapahit or Sri-Vijaya Empire.

    Some parts paid tributes yes, but for the most part, the Philippines was not within the Empire. In fact, Filipinos at that time were notorious for raiding Majapahit and Sri-Vijayan settlements.
    This.

    The distance is just too far, for my opinion, to govern it effeciently. Probably a kingdom or city state which its culture and population is similar to those two empires is much more realistic. Like the Kingdom of Maynila for example.

  6. #6
    Albertus, I had read a narrative of the ancient Bagobos implying that all tribes in the World originated from our place. It may sound preposterous but I did my research and found links that could justify it.

    The Bagobos claimed that these people who had been scattered around the world were our "lost" brethren, and they even predicted their return hence the arrival of Spaniards, Americans, Chinese, etc to our shores.

    I surmise that these viewpoint may actually be the trend of our pre-colonial ancestors upon the arrival of Spanish explorers and even their cosmopolitan outlook with other foreign traders dating back to pre-colonial era. When the Spaniards came, our ancestors must had perceived of them as "lost" brethren who had finally returned, as predicted. Hence they were able to establish more easily in our shores, and we were not necessarily invaded or conquered, but the pervading culture at that time was conducive for assimilation instead, despite the fact that our ancestors were known noble warriors also termed as Maharlikans whose fame spread even in other kingdoms for their skills and bravery. Arnis, the Martial Art of our ancestors managed to survive and presently has now captivated World attention.
    Last edited by visionarylink; Apr 7, 2010 at 09:30 AM.

  7. #7
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    The finds were authenticated by the National Museum, and deeper studies by reputable archaeologists were subsequently done. The oldest Chinese ceramic ware found in Butuan were the Yueh and Yueh type ware which dated back to the Five Dynasties (A.D. 907- 960). In a quantitative survey of the ceramics discovered in Butuan, there were representative types from various Asian realms, ranked according to volume: Chinese (10th - 15th centuries A.D.); Khmer/ Cambodian (9th-10th centuries A.D.); Thai (14th - 15th centuries A.D.) pre-Thai Satingpra (900-1100 A.D.); Haripunjaya (800-900 A.D.); pre-trade Vietnamese (11th - 13th centuries A.D.), and PERSIAN (9th - 10th centuries A.D.)
    The finds maybe as old as stated but it could have been brought to where it was found hundreds of years later. Traders could be carrying with them hundred years old antiques for trade that were discovered later and declared as thousands of years old.

    Other Aisan countries have existing monuments and ancient buildings and edifices, but nowhere in the Philippines has anyone discovered similar monuments or temples.


    Majapahit empire
    (13th – 16th century) Last Indianized kingdom in Indonesia, based in eastern Java. It was founded by Vijaya, a prince of Singhasari who collaborated with the invading Mongol troops of Kublai Khan (see Kertanagara) to defeat a rival and then drove the Mongols out. Some scholars believe that Majapahit territory included present-day Indonesia and part of Malaysia; others maintain that it was confined to eastern Java and Bali. It reached its height in the mid-14th century under King Hayam Wuruk and his prime minister Gajah Mada. The rise of the Islamic states along the northern Java coast brought the empire to an end.

  8. #8
    Los Indios Bravos albertus magnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by visionarylink View Post
    Albertus, I had read a narrative of the ancient Bagobos implying that all tribes in the World originated from our place. It may sound preposterous but I did my research and found links that could justify it.

    The Bagobos claimed that these people who had been scattered around the world were our "lost" brethren, and they even predicted their return hence the arrival of Spaniards, Americans, Chinese, etc to our shores.

    I surmise that these viewpoint may actually be the trend of our pre-colonial ancestors upon the arrival of Spanish explorers and even their cosmopolitan outlook with other foreign traders dating back to pre-colonial era. When the Spaniards came, our ancestors must had perceived of them as "lost" brethren who had finally returned, as predicted. Hence they were able to establish more easily in our shores, and we were not necessarily invaded or conquered, but the pervading culture at that time was conducive for assimilation instead, despite the fact that our ancestors were known noble warriors also termed as Maharlikans whose fame spread even in other kingdoms for their skills and bravery. Arnis, the Martial Art of our ancestors managed to survive and presently has now captivated World attention.
    Nice insight.

    I am an ardent believer of your "Out of Cibolan" or "Out of Mu" theory which jibes very well with Oppenheimer's and Solheim's. Many scientific evidence already debunked the "Out of Taiwan theory" and favoring "Out of Sundaland theory"

    I will copy paste here my post from another thread about "Debunking the Out of Taiwan theory".

    The new Asians including the Chinese, the Altaics, the Amis came from Southeast Asia circa 10,000 years ago corresponding to the Sinking of Sundaland due to the rising of sealevels at the waning of the last ice age. Which explains the genetic similarities.

    There are newer studies already debunking this "out of taiwan theory"
    http://www.fbs.leeds.ac.uk/gradschool/trai...stract_book.pdf
    "Phylogenetic Analysis Of Human Mitochondrial Genomes Of Two Major Haplogroups In Austronesian-speaking Populations by Martin richards
    The majority of populations that occupy the islands from Taiwan and Island Southeast Asia (ISEA) to Polynesia speak the same language family, Austronesian. Several models have been proposed for the origin of these populations but the prevailing one proposes a Neolithic expansion of rice farmers from South China to Taiwan and onwards, in the last 4000 years, to ISEA and further into the Pacific. This model is known as “Out of Taiwan”.
    The phylogeny of complete sequences of two major Austronesian-speaking populations’ specific clades of mitochondrial DNA, haplogroups E and B4a1, contradicts the consensus view. Haplogroup E presents much deeper private subclades in ISEA. This suggests an ancestry there and a subsequent movement of people into Taiwan, probably motivated by the sea level rising at the end of the last ice age. The geographic origin of the B4a1 branch is unclear, but its most frequent sub-branch, present only in eastern ISEA and the Pacific and defined by the ‘Polynesian motif’, dates to around 7500 years predating the hypothetical “Out of Taiwan” movement 4000 years ago. Furthermore this branch is more diverse to the east of New Guinea in the Bismarck Archipelago, suggesting an origin in that region."
    http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/paul-rod...d-spread-taiwan


    CHU ET AL STUDIES PROVING EAST ASIANS INCLUDING THE ALTAICS CAME FROM SOUTHEAST ASIA
    http://www.pnas.org/content/95/20/11763.fu...ab8f48467d10dcb
    To reiterate what the scientists concluded:
    ...genetic evidence does not support an independent origin of Homo sapiens in China. The phylogeny also suggested that it is more likely that ancestors of the populations currently residing in East Asia entered from SOUTHEAST ASIA.
    It is now probably safe to conclude that modern humans originating in Africa constitute the majority of the current gene pool in East Asia. A phylogeny with very different topological structure would have been expected if an independent Asian origin of modern human had made a major contribution to the current gene pool in Asian populations. Since the methods employed in this analysis can detect only major genetic contribution from particular sources, a haplotype-based analysis will probably detect minor contribution from an independent origin of modern humans in East Asia (24, 25).

    In contrast with previous studies (2–4) where distinction between southern and northern populations was clear, our current analysis showed that northern populations belong to two different groups, although statistical support was still weak. One noticeable difference in our study is the employment in the phylogeny reconstruction of the neighbor-joining method, which is supposedly more robust in the presence of genetic admixture. The use of microsatellites, a different type of genetic markers from previous studies, and the measures of genetic distance introduced further complication. However, the northern populations in cluster N2 were sampled from the southwestern part of China, except for Ewenki, where genetic admixture with the southern population was more likely to occur. This might explain why this group of northern populations clustered with southern populations.

    Another noticeable feature from this analysis is that the linguistic boundaries are often transgressed across the six language families studied (Sino-Tibetan, Daic, Hmong-Mien, Austro-Asiatic, Altaic, and Austronesian). Such a phenomenon is even more pronounced among southern populations, where populations from the same geographic regions tend to cluster in the phylogeny (see Fig. 1 B). This observation is consistent with the history of Chinese populations, where population migrations were substantial.

    The current analysis suggests that the southern populations in East Asia may be derived from the populations in Southeast Asia that originally migrated from Africa, possibly via mid-Asia, and the northern populations were under strong genetic influences from Altaic populations from the north. But it is unclear how Altaic populations migrated to Northeast Asia. It is possible that ancestral Altaic populations arrived there from middle Asia, or alternatively they may have originated from East Asia.

    The analyses of metric and nonmetric cranial traits of modern and prehistoric Siberian and Chinese populations showed that Siberians are closer to Northern Chinese and Mongolian than European (26, 27). The same notion holds for the facial flatness (26–28). European populations did not appear in Siberia, western Mongolia, and China until the Neolithic and Bronze Age (26, 27, 29, 30). Furthermore, cranial and dental analyses have linked the Arctic peoples, Buryat and east Asians with American Indians (31–35), which arrived through Beringia (Bering land bridge) somewhere between 15,000 and 30,000 years ago (36). These observations are generally consistent with the genetic evidence based on this research and mitochondrial DNA data (37–40). Therefore, it is more likely that ancestors of Altaic-speaking populations originated from an East Asian population that was originally derived from Southeast Asia
    More study proving that the Mongoloids or the East Asians came from Southeast Asia:
    http://www.genomeweb.com/arrays/hugo-pan-a...-diversity-asia
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    NEW YORK (GenomeWeb News) – In a paper appearing online today in Science, members of the Human Genome Organization's Pan-Asian SNP Consortium reported on genetic patterns in more than 70 Asian populations.

    The team, which included researchers from 10 Asian countries as well as investigators from the US, used microarrays to map the genetics of 73 Asian populations. They found that most genetic clusters corresponded to language groups, though geography was also a factor in these patterns. In addition, the study suggests an influx of individuals from Southeast Asia contributed genetically to many populations found in East Asia today.

    "[O]n the basis of variation at a large number of independent SNPs, we observed that there is substantial genetic proximity of [Southeast Asian] and [East Asian] populations
    ," the researchers wrote.

    Members of the HUGO Pan-Asian SNP Consortium used the Affymetrix GeneChip Human Mapping 50K Xba Array to genotype 1,928 individuals from 73 Asian populations at 54,794 autosomal SNPs. They also assessed samples from two non-Asian HapMap populations.

    Their ancestry analyses suggest Asian populations harbor genetic contributions from five language groups, three ethnic groups, and two small groups representing specific populations in Borneo and Thailand.

    Most of the genetic patterns corresponded with language groups, the researchers reported. But there were exceptions. For instance, they found eight populations in which genetic and language patterns did not match. Rather, individuals in these populations tended to cluster more closely with nearby geographic populations.

    "These patterns are consistent either with substantial recent admixture among the populations, a long history of language replacement, or uncertainties in the linguistic classifications themselves," the researchers explained.

    In general, haplotype diversity was highest in southern Asia and dwindled in samples taken further north.

    Most East Asian haplotypes — some 90 percent — turned up in Southeast or Central-South Asia. But more of these haplotypes were unique to Southeast Asia
    : about half of East Asian haplotypes were present only in Southeast Asia, the researchers reported, compared with the five percent of East Asian haplotypes that were found in Central-South Asia alone.

    Such patterns indicate that migration from Southeast Asia into East and North Asia, the team explained. They proposed a model whereby ancestors of modern day Asian populations settled in India before migrating to Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, and the Philippines. From there, it appears one or more groups traveled north, mixing with other populations already living in these regions.
    Let's say the questionable Stanford study (which has a small sampling size of Filipinos and not representative to the whole spectrum of various Filipino phenotypes) is scientifically true:One might conclude that the Amis are the closest GENETICALLY to us Filipinos. But the fact remains, various genetic studies so far prove NORTHWARD MIGRATION. THUS the often quoted STANFORD STUDIES have no clear indication GENETICALLY in proving their assertion of SOUTHWARD MIGRATION but otherwise various studies done by Chu et al, Professor Martin Richards, and the HUGO Pan-Asian SNP Consortium are affirming the Theories by Solheim and Oppenheimer and thus, debunking the linguist Bellwood's theory, OUT OF TAIWAN. Plus the fact that the validity of the old Stanford study on Filipinos is still in question. Probably, it's moot and academic since there are newer studies.

    IN CONCLUSION, TAIWAN OR SOUTH CHINA IS NOT THE MOTHERLAND OF THE FILIPINOS.

    We should throw to the garbage bin the Ary-Han Invasion Hoax perpetrated by some sinonazis. -elaugh

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Map_of_Sunda_and_Sahul.png
    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2636/3773669140_e6348532d3.jpg


    Edit:

    New Asians: the Sundadont O1(Amis-Austonesians), Sinodont O2(Altaics-Japanese-Koreans), Sinodont O3(Sino-Tibetan) and the Sundadont Daics/Austro-Thai sprung up from the Old Asian Australoids(Ainus, Papuans, Andamese-who came from the Single Mitochondrial eve of Africa) in Sundaland during the end of the last glacial period(5,000 to 10,000yrs ago) as various studies done by Martin Richards and Chu et al(East Asians came from Southeast Asia and not Yunnan-Southwest China/Central Asia) had proven? Therefore another Northward migration by the NEW ASIANS circa postglacial period aside from the earlier Northward migration of the beach combing land-bridge trekking Old Australoids(Ainus) or OLD ASIANS 50,000-100,000 yrs ago.

    That's why it so difficult to make generalizations basing from questionable studies like the Stanford study which has only few samplings of Filipinos and not truly representative of the spectrum of various Filipino phenotypes and genotypes.
    And idiocy to generalize that Filipinos are Amis or that people had this paternal lineages with a different maternal lineages. And yet linguistically speaking the Malay language, the Bahasa Indonesian language, the Tagalog-Bisayan languages share more similarities in lexicon than the Ami and Formosan languages. But of course, the linguist Bellwood has his own explanation but unfortunately newer genetic studies(Martin Richards) have debunked the Out of Taiwan theory. And not forgetting various myths by the Taiwanese aborigenes themselves keep pointing to the south as their origins.

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  10. #9
    Los Indios Bravos albertus magnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migs42 View Post
    I'm very sure that we have connections with the Indians since many of our words came from them.

    but...
    This.

    The distance is just too far, for my opinion, to govern it effeciently. Probably a kingdom or city state which its culture and population is similar to those two empires is much more realistic. Like the Kingdom of Maynila for example.
    I'll reiterate...
    There is such a misconception when we speak of Majapahit or Srivijaya as empires following the western point of view as in Roman empire or any other empires. The correct term is Alliance or Confederacy or thalasocracy. Various independent city states throughout maritime Southeast Asia as they were not continental and were connected by long distance just acknowledge some form of allegiance to powers of whatever ruling clan predominated on certain period like the Srivijayas and Majapahit.

    The long distance is connected by the so called Maritime Spice Routes which corresponds to the continental Silk Route. See opening post.

    The distance was not great to deter invasion by Nakhoda Ragam also known as Sultan Bulkeiah of Brunei to subjugate the Kingdom of Selurung as Luzon/Lusung was known them( while the ancient Indonesians called it SALUDONG). Ragam established the city state of Manila to overseer Luzon's capital, Tondo for its trading interest.

    Refer to my opening post about the confusion about the Kingdom of Tondo, the Rajanate of Manila, The Kingdom of Namayan and the Kingdom of Sapa.

    As I have said this Sultan Bulkeiah was the great grand father of the last ruler of Moslem Manila, Raja Soliman III.
    Last edited by albertus magnus; Apr 7, 2010 at 01:55 PM.

  11. #10
    Los Indios Bravos albertus magnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArnoldZ View Post
    The finds maybe as old as stated but it could have been brought to where it was found hundreds of years later. Traders could be carrying with them hundred years old antiques for trade that were discovered later and declared as thousands of years old.

    Other Aisan countries have existing monuments and ancient buildings and edifices, but nowhere in the Philippines has anyone discovered similar monuments or temples.


    Majapahit empire
    (13th – 16th century) Last Indianized kingdom in Indonesia, based in eastern Java. It was founded by Vijaya, a prince of Singhasari who collaborated with the invading Mongol troops of Kublai Khan (see Kertanagara) to defeat a rival and then drove the Mongols out. Some scholars believe that Majapahit territory included present-day Indonesia and part of Malaysia; others maintain that it was confined to eastern Java and Bali. It reached its height in the mid-14th century under King Hayam Wuruk and his prime minister Gajah Mada. The rise of the Islamic states along the northern Java coast brought the empire to an end.
    Bear with me. This is going to be long one.

    First and foremost, thanks for some primer about Majapahit. I didn't include that as I have expected everybody to know that already that it was Java-based. More about Majapahit later(but you need to back read my opening post, as it explained the connections of the Majapahit with the Kingdom of Soloot(Sulu) and the Kingdom of Lusung or Luzon(hispanized), which the ancient Indonesians called SALUDONG.

    The absence of monuments like Angkhor in the Philippines doesn't necessarily mean we were backward or outside the realms of Buddhist or Hindu influence. We have a unique situation here where typhoons ravaged the country annually as compared to our neighbors(which could influence the local architecture) and the abundance of wood materials for construction purpose. Many theorized that the old churches and even Intramuros were made from olden stone preexisting structures. And not to forget that before the coming of the Spaniards and perhaps coinciding with the advent of Islam and the invasion on Luzon by the Brunei Sultan, was the Pinatubo eruption which could have ravaged and covered any existing structures which could provide evidence of Srivijayan and Majapahit influences. So archaeological diggings must be done deeper beneath layers upon layers of volcanic soil. There is another theory explaining the absence of stone monuments (like Temples like Borubodur or Ankor Vat) in the Philippines, it got to do with the Paradisial Axis Mundi Geomancy-"Nature is the Temple" concept. It's so esoteric, metaphysical and mystical to be discussed for now. But what Grander proof of the Philippines as sophisticated and possessing advanced civilization than the Rice terraces found in the Cordilleras.>>> "The stone walls, canals, dams and reservoirs of the Igorots can also be considered as type of architecture, or at least stone engineering. The amount of stones used by the Igorots in their hydraulic engineering works is estimated to far exceed in bulk those used in building the Pyramids or the Great Wall of China. Many of these walls and canals are thousands of years old and have withstood countless typhoons and the effects of Sun, wind and time."

    Regarding the ceramic wares, which are of Persian and Chinese origin...

    No direct evidence that Persian traders came like Persian boats was found. But at the contrary, Balangay boats were found all over the isles with evidences of China wares, Indian wares and even Persian wares in them or near sites where the boats were found suggesting direct trading contacts from Philippine isles to as far as Persia and India done by local traders to those places near and far. No, these are not Chinese junks nor Indian trading vessels though there were some Chinese and Bruneian junks found, majority of the trading vessels found are still indigenous or locals. Of course you are going to say that these are Malay traders(But the experts were able to distinguish Bruneian or Malay trading vessels from the local ones)...

    But Luzon traders were all over the place in maritime Southeast Asia. They were even carryinng China goods and mistaken as Chinamen in Batavia(Jakarta, Java) and in Cebu. (Accdg to the Portuguese annals as pointed by William Henry Scott.)

    The local Indios were not passive(recipient) from the trade but were active seafarers, traders, mercenaries, and raiders.

    ABOUT THE SEAFARING AND TRADING OF OUR ANCESTORS (HIGHLY RECOMMENDED THAT ANYBODY SHOULD READ THIS ONE) ... http://sambali.blogspot.com/2010/03/...ilippines.html

    Regarding the authenticity of the Laguna Copperplate Inscription and the various Hindu/Buddhist relics like the Gold of our ancestors found in Surigao and Butuan(including the Hindu-Buddhist statue of Tara), they were confirmed by various experts as Locally Made and not sourced from outside the Philippine isles.

    INDIAN INFLUENCES were so mixed indigenously in our culture EARLY ON as to permeate our language(including script) and syncretic beliefs via directly or indirectly via the Hindu Majapahit or the Buddhist Srivijaya and not as a result of Indian invasion or mass migration(only a few percentage of Filipinos had a Bombay or Sepoy phenotype) but could be that our ancestors who were mariners and traders and formed alliances with its neighbors had brought Indian influences.

    NOT TO FORGET THE AUSTRONESIAN INFLUENCES IN INDIC LANGUAGES. There is an extensive reserch done by Pol Kekai that native Austronesian words were present in INDO-ARYAN languages.

    The Baybayin script, the Laguna copperplate inscription with its Kavi script based from the Brahmin script and the Gold of our ancestors (as found in Surigao and Butuan) are good cases for Indian influences.

    But the point I am driving at is, our ancestors were not PASSIVE recipient of the trade and influences of the Indian, Persian, Arab, Malay or the Chinese traders but themselves were ACTIVE traders, seafarers, mercenaries and raiders bringing with them those influences.

    ---------
    Now, going back to the topic of Majapahit...

    What I was saying was there were intermarriages between Nobilities or Royalties of the Majapahit and with the Kingdom of Sapa(Kingdom of Luzon). Even our National Artist Nick Joaquin mentioned it as well as various historians. More on those later...

    Saludong, Selurung, and variations of it were mentioned by various historians mostly from Brunei as the Kingdom of Luzon whom Ragam or Nakhoda or Bulkiah invaded. And the same Saludong was mentioned in the Majapahit document Nagarakertagama http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagarakertagama
    In Canto 14 of Nagarakertagama more territories are mentioned: Kadandangan, Landa, Samadang, Tirem, Sedu (Sarawak), Barune (Brunei), Kalka, SALUDONG, Solot (Sulu), Pasir Barito, Sawaku, Tabalung, and Tanjung Kutei. In Hujung Medini (Malay Peninsula), Pahang is mentioned first. Next Langkasuka, Saimwang, Kelantan and Trengganu, Johor, Paka, Muar, Dungun, Tumasik (where Singapore is today), Kelang (Klang valley) and Kedah, Jerai, Kanjapiniran, all are united.
    end of quote


    Accdg to some of our local historians:
    Luzon and Saludung are different entities. And that, Selurong refers to manila which is a part of kingdom of luzon not selurong=luzon.

    That was a mistake of our local historian Zaide, who referred to a work done by a Caucasian historian who mistook saludong as a bay off borneo, in his defense that the Philippines was never been a part of Majapahit. Our local historians have a sanitized view of Prehispanic Philippines where Philippine isles was outside the spheres of influence of Majapahit and Srivijaya.



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Maynila
    quote:
    During the reign of Sultan Bolkiah (1485-1521) the Kingdom of Brunei decided to break the Tondo's monopoly in the China trade by attacking Tondo and establishing the city state of Seludong as a Bruneian satellite. This is narrated through Tausug and Malay royal histories, where the names Seludong, SALUDONG or Selurong are used to denote Manila prior to colonization.[2]end of quote-
    The confusion came from that wiki. It says there that the Sultan established the city state of Seludong, then come describing that Manila he established was known then as Seludong, SALUDONG or selurong.

    The confusion was cleared when I read the below article from the link:

    Selurung was the name mentioned by Nakhoda Ragam as the placed he invaded on which he referred as the same place our ancestors called their kingdom as Lusung to quote from here... http://geocities.com/TheTropics/Coast/7446/Ragam.htm

    quote:
    Ako si sultan Bulkeiah sa Borneo, na naghahari mula sa lungsod ng kapayapaan, Dar es Salam, sa dalampasigan ng Brunei. Sa Magindanaw at sa Sulu, na kinakikitaan ng unang liwanag ng walang katulad kong asawa, Emperatris Lela Men Chanei, ay tinatawag akong Raha Baginda. At ngayon, dito sa Maynila ay ako ang Sultan at Emperador
    Makalawang ulit nang sinalakay ng aking hukbong-dagat ang SELURUNG, na tinatawag ninyong LUSUNG
    ---
    if you don't want to believe that website let's go over and repeat the above links of various brunei websites...
    1) http://www.brudirect.com/BruneiInfo/info/b...ct__History.htm
    quote:
    "The sultanate's golden age dawned with the reign of the fifth sultan, Nakhoda Ragam or the singing captain, Sultan Bolkiah, who was famous for many conquests. His voyages took him to Java, Malacca and the Philippines, where he seized SELUDONG. His rule extended over the Sultanates of Sambas, Pontianak, Banjarmasin, Pasi Kotei, Balongan, the Sulu Archipelago, and Islands of Balabac, Banggi, Balambangan and Palawan.Sultan Bolkiah, whose conquests covered the whole of Borneo and as far north as Luzon in the Philippine Islands, where he initiated the spread of Islam, succeeded Sultan Sulaiman. He was known as Nakhoda Ragam. His queen was known as Puteri Laila Menchanai. The reign of Sultan Bolkiah (1485-1584) was the height of the Brunei Sultanate in territory, influence and power. Brunei'5 sovereignty then extended to encompass other kingdoms in Borneo and the Philippines (then dominated by the Kingdom of Manila and the Sultanates of Sulu and Maguindanao). There were inter-marriages between the royal family members of Brunei and the royalties of other Malay and Japanese kingdoms to strengthen relationships."
    2) http://www.bruneidirecthys.net/about...i/history.html
    3) http://www.geocities.com/tymez_up05/...es/Page513.htm
    4) http://my.opera.com/Brunei_Darussala.../?startidx=150
    5) http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/3674204
    Remember that the Manila Sultanate or vassal city state of Manila was not yet established at that time he invaded Luzon. It was him, Sultan Bolkiah aka Nakhoda Ragam and his descendants which includes Gatlontok and Gatpandan, Salalila, Soliman; who established Manila. So in fact, Manila is formerly part of Selurung aka Luzon kingdom with its capital in Tondo. And not the confusion of Manila as synonymous as Selurung.

    Kingdom of Luzon was also known as Saludong or Selurung or Seludong by the Bruneians as Sultan Ragam aka Nakhoda aka Bulkeiah(Bolkiah) himself claimed he vanquished Datu Gambang after failing once.

    Bruneian websites which described the history of Brunei with its golden age during the time of Nakhoda Ragam who made Luzon known to them as variation of Seludong as a vassall state:
    1) http://www.brudirect.com/BruneiInfo/info/b...ct__History.htm
    quote:
    "The sultanate's golden age dawned with the reign of the fifth sultan, Nakhoda Ragam or the singing captain, Sultan Bolkiah, who was famous for many conquests. His voyages took him to Java, Malacca and the Philippines, where he seized SELUDONG (Manila). His rule extended over the Sultanates of Sambas, Pontianak, Banjarmasin, Pasi Kotei, Balongan, the Sulu Archipelago, and Islands of Balabac, Banggi, Balambangan and Palawan.Sultan Bolkiah, whose conquests covered the whole of Borneo and as far north as Luzon in the Philippine Islands, where he initiated the spread of Islam, succeeded Sultan Sulaiman. He was known as Nakhoda Ragam. His queen was known as Puteri Laila Menchanai. The reign of Sultan Bolkiah (1485-1584) was the height of the Brunei Sultanate in territory, influence and power. Brunei'5 sovereignty then extended to encompass other kingdoms in Borneo and the Philippines (then dominated by the Kingdom of Manila and the Sultanates of Sulu and Maguindanao). There were inter-marriages between the royal family members of Brunei and the royalties of other Malay and Japanese kingdoms to strengthen relationships."
    2) http://www.bruneidirecthys.net/about...i/history.html
    3) http://www.geocities.com/tymez_up05/...es/Page513.htm
    4) http://my.opera.com/Brunei_Darussala.../?startidx=150
    5) http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/3674204
    quote:
    "Sultan Bolkiah was the fifth Sultan of Brunei. He ascended the throne of Brunei upon the abdication of his father, Sultan Sulaiman. He ruled Brunei from 1485 to 1524. His reign was known as the Golden Age because Brunei became the superpower of the Malay archipelago. Under Sultan Bolkiah, Brunei prospered further, but he was still unsatisfied with Brunei's progress and ordered all his chiefs and ministers to seek new ideas to develop Brunei further. He frequently travelled abroad to broaden his outlook and increase his knowledge for the development of his country. The new ideas he brought back to Brunei were ordered to be studied in detail and pursued for implementation for the benefit of his people and country. Sultan Bolkiah's victory over Sulu and SELURONG (now Manila), and marriages to Princess Lela Mechanai (the princess of Sulu) and to the daughter of Datu Kemin, widened Brunei's influence in the Philippines.

    Our very own historian Carmen Nakpil mentioned that the late Dr. Cesar Adib Majul said "Sultan Bulkeaiah (Nakhoda Ragam) of Brunei conquered and made a dependency of SALURONG (a still more ancient name for Manila)." http://www.newsflash.org/2003/05/ht/ht003845.htm
    http://geocities.com/TheTropics/Coast/7446/Ragam.htm

    The above references established that the Luzon Kingdom was know to the Bruneians as variations of Selurong(Salurong,SALUDONG,Seludong,Selurung)

    And what is my point for emphasizing Saludong or Salurong. It is because in the book of "Nagarakretagama", a 14th century poem writen by Mpu Prapanca as "pujasastra" (adoration poem) for King Hayam Wuruk, some historians are readily to identify some places under Majapahit sphere of influence (vassal) that is now belongs to the Phillippines republic. Among others geographic names "Solot" is identify with Sulu islands, as well as SALUDONG.

    Even the former president of Indonesia, President Sukarno claimed that Saludong is the Philippines in his attempt to restore the grandeur of the Majapahit Empire. Something that the book, "Cambridge History of SE Asia" also implies. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/archive/i...php/t-6148.html

    On our very own annals, but not emphasized in our academics, old and forgotten but now being revived, the concept of our prespanic history and relations with our neighbors as intertwined in history, concerning the marriage of Emperor Anka Wijaya or Vijaya or Widyaya to the Lady or Dayang(kapampangan word for blood)Sasaban of the Kingdom of Sapa(Sabang which means estuary) aka Saludong or Luzon Kingdom or the Kingdom of Namayan. http://article.melayuonline.com/?a=Rm1tL1U5bWh1MGY%3D=
    quote:
    According to Henson, he was the third Sulaiman to rule the Islamic Kingdom of Manila. The first was Sulaiman I, a grandson of Emperor Anka Widjaya, the last King of Majapahit and Empress Sa Saban of the Kingdom of Sapa (now Sta. Ana, Manila)

    Angka Wijaya accdg to the book The Pagan Tribes of Borneo by Charles Hose and William McDougall http://www.fullbooks.com/The-Pagan-T...f-Borneo1.html
    quote:
    In the earliest years of the fourteenth century Bruni was a dependency
    of Majapahit, but seems to have recovered its independence during the
    minority of the Javan king. It is to this time that the tradition of
    the Kapuas Malays ascribes the arrival of the Kayans in Borneo.[14]
    Then Angka Wijaya extended the power of Majapahit over Palembang
    in Sumatra, Timor, Ternate, Luzon(aka Selurong)
    end of quote--
    btw:
    Luzon was an exporter of Luzon Pots to Japan.
    http://sambali.blogspot.com/2006/09/...-glossary.html
    Last edited by albertus magnus; Apr 8, 2010 at 12:56 PM.

  12. #11
    Los Indios Bravos albertus magnus's Avatar
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    Gold of Ancestors>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E38Uh_qwup4
    foward the video to 7:20, the lady talks about hindu god with our own original decorations

    http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/9247/gintop169.jpg
    http://www.ayalamuseum.org/images/ayalamain/exhibitions/gold/kinnari-thumb.png
    http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/8871/tantricjewel.jpg
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3185/2501303848_e3e99152f6_m.jpg
    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2268/2501304726_a89d929fb2.jpg
    http://www.marketmanila.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/11.jpg
    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2397/2501297818_5a9901620e_m.jpg
    http://www.ayalamuseum.org/images/ayalamain/exhibitions/feature/gold-title.png

    "For a nation that was under Spanish rule for close to 400 years, there's still the great debate whether their colonization worked to our advantage, as many to this day still resent their occupation of the country. During that time, the Spanish subjugated our people and ruined our native cultures. They stripped us of our riches and took away our self-worth. In the end, and thanks to centuries of miseducation, we were left with a mindset that they were responsible for everything we acquired both intellectually and culturally.

    Only in later times did I learn how much more complex our pre-Hispanic civilization was as opposed to the barbarians they were made out to be. Our ancient society was stratified who lived by a set of laws and followed indigenous religions.

    After visiting the Gold of Our Ancestors exhibit I discovered even further just how sophisticated our forefathers were. I was totally floored by and in utter disbelief to the showcase before me. There were over 1,000 pieces of gold on display, intricately crafted by native goldsmiths into earrings, rings, diadems, pectorals, funeral masks, and orifice pieces for the eyes, nose and mouth that date as far back as the 10th century and used by the elite. Other and more obscure objects include bowls, tweezers, belts and chastity pieces! The highlight though, would most definitely be the sash or halter that weighs almost 4 kilograms (that’s 10 pounds!) that automatically elicits an expletive from anyone who lays eyes on it.

    (Cue colonial mentality) It’s sad that it was hard for me to fathom at first how our ancient ancestors were so highly advanced in their craftsmanship. I’d never seen anything like it locally made before. But inasmuch as it was astounding and instilled a sense of pride, I couldn’t help but feel resentful at how the Spaniards had stolen these objet d’arts and brought them back to Spain, together with the skills that were eventually lost.

    Through the generosity of National Artist Leandro Locsin who funded numerous archaeological expeditions throughout the years, these artifacts are now back where they rightfully belong. It took him 25 years to find the right time and place to present this fabulous collection to the Filipino people due to the disparate social landscape. Under the stewardship of the Zobel-Ayalas, who are ironically the descendants of some of our colonizers, they are now permanently housed at the Ayala Museum. But hey, hats off to them for paying it back (at least I’d like to think so) and for being instrumental in acquainting us with what were once lost national treasures."
    source:
    http://www.travbuddy.com/Gold-of-Anc...ppines-v267141

  13. #12
    Los Indios Bravos albertus magnus's Avatar
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    I never thought my post here...
    http://www.pinoyexchange.com/forums/...35&postcount=1
    ... echoed what Rizal thought on how Malay Pinoys had lost touch with its inner core: an industrious and adventurous race who traded throughout maritime Southeast Asia.



    In Rizal's work... http://www.bohol.ph/books/Indolence/Indole...31f70a4179153df
    The Chinese and the Spaniards as well as the Mestizoes were highly favored in the trading(Chinese brought the goods to Manila, and the Galleon trade took care of the rest)and therefore garnered ECONOMIC DOMINANCE. Because the Spanish officials never trusted the Malay Filipinos, the Bruneians, for in the back of their minds, alliances might be made again to overthrow the colony.

    According to Jose Rizal; in the past, the Malays including the Malay Pinoys and not the Chinese dominated in the trading among the isles in Maritime Southeast Asia.[see bolded portions below]

    And so instead of trading be done in gold as it was in the past, they traded in silver, the preferential currency of the Chinese.
    quoting Rizal:
    The following, among other causes, contributed to foster the evil and aggravate it: the constantly lessening encouragement that labor has met with in the Philippines. Fearing to have the Filipinos deal frequently with other individuals of their own race, who were free and independent, as the Borneans, the Siamese, the Cambodians, and the Japanese, people who in their customs and feeling's differ greatly from the Chinese, the Government acted toward these others with great mistrust and great severity, as Morga testifies in the last pages of his work, until they finally ceased to come to the country. In fact, it seems that once an uprising' planned by the Borneans was suspected: we say suspected, for there was not even an attempt, although there were many executions. (19) And, as these nations were the very ones that, consumed Philippine products, when all communication with them had been cut off, consumption of these products also ceased. The only two countries with which the Philippines continued page 34to have relations were China and Mexico, or New Spain, and from this trade only China and a few private individuals in Manila got any benefit. It, fact, the Celestial Empire sent, her junks laden with merchandise, that merchandise which shut down the factories of Seville and ruined the Spanish industry, and returned laden in exchange with the silver that was every year sent from Mexico. Nothing from the Philippines at that time went to China, not even gold, for in those years the Chinese traders would accept no payment but silver coin. (20) To Mexico went little more: some cloth and dry goods which the encomendoros took by force or bought from the natives at, a paltry price, wax, amber, gold, civet, etc, but nothing more, and not even in great quantity, as is stated by Admiral Don Jerónimo de Bańuelos y Carrillo, when he begged the King that “the inhabitants of the Manilas be permitted (!) to load as many ships as they could with native products, such as wax, gold, perfumes, ivory, cotton cloths, which they would have to buy from the natives of the country ............... Thus the friendship of those peoples would be gained, they would furnish New Spain with their merchandise and the money that is brought to Manila, would not leave this place,” (21)

    The coastwise trade, so active in other times, had to die out, thanks to the piratical attacks of the Malays of the south; and trade in the interior of the islands almost entirely disappeared, owing to restrictions, passports page 35and other administrative requirements.

    Of no little importance were the hindrances and obstacles that from the beginning were thrown in the farmers's way by the rulers, who were influenced by childish fear and saw everywhere signs of conspiracies and uprisings. The natives were not allowed to go to their labors, that is, their farms, without permission of the governor, or of his agents and officers, and even of the priests as Morga says. Those who know the administrative slackness and confusion in a country where the officials work scarcely two hours a day; those who know the cost of going to and returning from the capital to obtain a permit; those who are aware of the petty retaliations of the little tyrants will well understand how with this crude arrangement it is possible to have the most absurd agriculture. True it is that for some time this absurdity, which would be ludicrous had it not been so serious, has disappeared; but even if the words have gone out of use other facts and other provisions have replaced them. The Moro pirate has disappeared but there remains the outlaw who infests the fields and waylays the farmer to hold him for ransom. Now then, the government, which has a constant fear of the people, denies to the farmers even the use of a shotgun, or if it does allow it does so very grudgingly and withdraws it at pleasure; whence it results with the laborer, who, thanks to his means of defense, plants his crops and invests his meager fortune page 36in the furrows that he has so laboriously opened, that when his crop matures, it occurs to the government, which is impotent to suppress brigandage, to deprive him of his weapon; and then, without defense and without security he is reduced to inaction and abandons his field, his work, and takes to gambling as the best means of securing a livelihood. The green cloth is under the protection of the government, it is safer! A mournful counselor is fear, for it not only causes weakness but also in casting aside the weapons strengthens the very persecutor!

    The sordid return the native gets from his work has the effect of discouraging him. We know from history that the encomenderos, after reducing many to slavery and forcing them to work for their benefit, made others give up their merchandise for a trifle or nothing at all, or cheated them with false measures.


    and Rizal remarks about the industriousness of the Malays:

    Before the arrival of the Europeans, the Malayan Filipinos carried on an active trade, not only among themselves but also with all the neighboring countries. A Chinese manuscript of the 13th century, translated by Dr. Hirth (Globus, Sept. 1889), which we will take up at another time, speaks of China's relations with the islands, relations purely commercial, in which mention is made of the activity and honesty of the traders of Luzon, who took the Chinese products and distributed them throughout all the islands, traveling for nine months, and then returned to pay religiously even for the merchandise that the Chinamen did not remember to have given them. The products which they in exchange exported from the islands were crude wax, cotton, pearls, tortoise-shell, betel-nuts, dry-goods, etc. [5]

    The first thing noticed by Pigafetta, who came with Magellan in 1521, on arriving at the first island of the Philippines, Samar, was the courtesy and kindness of the inhabitants and their commerce. “To honor our captain,” he says, “they conducted him to their boats where they had their merchandise, which consisted of cloves, cinnamon, pepper, nutmegs, mace, gold and other things; and they made us page 19understand by gestures that such articles were to be found in the islands to which we were going.” [6]

    Further on he speaks of the vessels and utensils of solid gold that he found in Butuan, where the people worked mines. He describes the silk dresses, the daggers with long gold hilts and scabbards of carved wood, the gold, sets of teeth, etc. Among cereals and fruits he mentions rice, millet, oranges, lemons, panicum, etc.

    That the islands maintained relations with neighboring countries and even with distant ones is proven by the ships from Siam, laden with gold and slaves, that Magellan found in Cebu. These ships paid certain duties to the King of the island. In the same year, 1521, the survivors of Magellan's expedition met the son of the Rajah of Luzon, who, as captain-general of the Sultan of Borneo and admiral of his fleet, had conquered for him the great city of Lave (Sarawak?). Might this captain, who was greatly feared by all his foes, have been the Rajah Matanda whom the Spaniards afterwards encountered in Tondo in 1570?

    In 1539 the warriors of Luzon took part in the formidable contests of Sumatra, and under the orders of Angi Siry Timor, Rajah of Batta, conquered and overthrew the terrible Alzadin, Sultan of Atchin, renowned in the historical annals of the Far East. (Marsden, Hist. of Sumatra, Chap. XX.) (7)

    At that time, that sea where float the islands like a set of emeralds on a paten of bright page 20glass, that sea was everywhere traversed by junks, paraus, barangays, vintas, vessels swift as shuttles, so large that they could maintain a hundred rowers on a side (Morga that sea bore everywhere commerce, industry, agriculture, by the force of the oars moved to the sound of warlike songs (8) of the genealogies and achievements of the Philippine divinities. (Colin, Chap. XV.) (9)

  14. #13
    sa tingin ko, isa lang ang source mo. dapat minimum of 2 at independent ang sources, di ba? lol!

  15. #14
    Los Indios Bravos albertus magnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlanNathaniel View Post
    sa tingin ko, isa lang ang source mo. dapat minimum of 2 at independent ang sources, di ba? lol!
    rotfl
    Natawa naman ako sa yo, parekoy. Tingin mo lang kasi at halata naman na 'di ka talaga nagbasa. Una sa lahat di ako isang academic historian at di ako nagpapanggap. Isa lamang ako mahilig sa ating kasaysayan.
    At ang main purpose nitong thread na ito ay maibalik ang nakalimutang at nabaon sa limot na kasaysayan na di makikita sa standard sanitized history textbooks na colonial centered. Gaya ni Rizal ating tahakin na alamin ang ating pinagmulan, isang marangal, masipag at matapang na lahi at hindi isang lahing walang muwang sa kabihasnan.

    Gaya ng sabi ni AMBASSADOR EDGARDO B. ESPIRITU:
    In the last several decades, the Filipino people have been weighed down by a poor self-image as a nation.

    A poor opinion of ourselves, of course, reinforces other nations’ already shoddy, albeit misinformed and unfair, impression of our national character, and undermines our efforts toward enhanced competitiveness and development. Many among the last three generations at least have come to regard the Filipino as being a cheat, a slacker, and an ungovernable juvenile.

    But this is, of course, not true. And this has not always been the Filipino’s image of himself. Ask your grandparents and great grandparents.

    There was a time when we as a nation held close to our hearts the sterling values of hardwork and perseverance, of honesty and being true to one’s word, of social responsibility and caring for the common weal. This unsavory self-image is a fairly recent phenomenon, a product of recent twists and turns in our national history and of our tendency toward self-deprecation and self-criticism. But even if we have already witnessed many cases in the recent past that seem to confirm that this self-image is aligned with reality, I would say that these cases do not represent the great majority of basically decent, hardworking, and God-fearing Filipinos.


    Pwede ba mag lurk ka at mag back read ka na lang muna para magkaroon naman ng sense ang mga magiging comment mo.
    lol!

  16. #15
    20100420.1630

    My Dear Fellowmen,

    I believe that the Philippines was connected to the Majapahit and Srivijayan empires before the coming of the Spaniards in 1521.

    What did the Chinese traders note on something like religious items that littered the places of the people from Mait or the barbarians?

    These questions may be off-topic but somehow related to the current topic:

    Why did the Spaniards have the Galleon Trade routed through the Pacific Ocean and Mexico which is much longer way to Spain? There is the trans-shipment of goods from Acapulco on the Pacific Ocean to the other side of Mexico facing the Atlantic Ocean to Spain?

    Why did the Spaniards not use the Malaya Strait, Indian Ocean and Cape of Good Hope route to Spain instead? This route may be shorter.

    With love, your brother in Jesus,
    Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
    Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
    http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
    "The Internet is mightier than the sword."

  17. #16
    I am The Will.
    Join Date
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    Forgive me for not reading any of your posts, magnus (images as big as yours, and those that disrupt narrative, tend to produce waves of migraine in me), but I ask of you: is there evidence of any part of the present country being vassals of the prevailing empires of the period (the Majapahit, or the Srivijaya, or...)? Or is this country then a collection of fiefdoms independent from those empires?

    Just curious. Somewhat.

  18. #17
    Los Indios Bravos albertus magnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Israffel View Post
    Forgive me for not reading any of your posts, magnus (images as big as yours, and those that disrupt narrative, tend to produce waves of migraine in me), but I ask of you: is there evidence of any part of the present country being vassals of the prevailing empires of the period (the Majapahit, or the Srivijaya, or...)? Or is this country then a collection of fiefdoms independent from those empires?

    Just curious. Somewhat.
    We have a misconception when we associate the western concept of empires or vassals to various states or kingdoms on the various isles separated by wild expanse of waters comprising the archipelagic regions such as ours. What is more correct is thalossocracy or simply alliances or confederacy. Have you heard of the legend of Madya-as confederacy supposed to be based in Visayas. It's a play of words with Madya-pa-it, the supposed empire based in Java. There were various kingdoms or citystates or polities not just tribal as incorrectly described by the past American educators during the colonial era as vehemently opposed by the historian William Henry Scott who called these polities as rightful kingdoms like the citystate of Manila, etc. These independent citystates or rajanates(ruled by their respective rajas or kings) or simply kingdoms or any such polities were bound by loose political alliances or a confederacy connected by royal inter-marriages or by maritime trading networks with a predominating clan or dynasty presiding whether Srivijayas or Majapahit in certain periods of our Prehispanic past. Nick Joaquin in his historical essays based on quasihistorical documents or genealogies spoke of the intermarriage between Majapahit emperor or maharaja Angka Widjaya with our Dayang or Empress Sasaban of the Kingdom of Sapa. I discussed this with an Indonesian Majapahit expert and he found out with disbelief that in the Majapahit Nagakertagama document, one of the kingdoms listed as allies or vassals if you want is Saludong also known as Selurong the other name for the Kingdom of Luzon or Lusong(explained already). The other kingdom mentioned is Soloot, which is recognized by experts as Sulu.

    lol. The various pictures as big as me are relics made from pure Gold from our Buddhist and Hindu past or Srivijaya or Majapahit past.

    There is a theory by PKM that at one time the capital of Srivijayas stayed in Luzon and later on transferred to Palembang, Sumatra, the long accepted capital according to western academicians such as Coedes. But if one will go to the early Chinese writings, the capital of Srivijayas known to them as Sanfotsi was situated directly opposite of the Kingdom of Champa(now Vietnam) which could be anywhere within the Philippine isles. And Palembang in the earlier writings was just a dependency or a vassal state and not the capital. But later writings says the elements of Srivijayas was transferred there. And so the confusion until this very day.

    If you will try to research about the Laguna copperplate inscription which was the oldest historical document (circa 10th century) unearthed. Isn't that Srivijayan? The Tondo potentate was acting as a supreme judge among various allies which include the kingdoms of Dewata or Butuan and to as far as the Hindu kingdom of Medang in Java or Sumatra. And this was the time Srivijayas was at its peak. If this was not Srivijaya, then this alliance could rival or far surpassed Srivijaya. But of course, some would concur that this was Sanfotsi as it was known by the early Chinese or Zabag as it was known by the early Arabs or the Coedes' Srivijaya empire itself.

    If one is really interested one can go read the above without having to endure migraine. ha ha

    Papaumanhin mo ako parekoy. Mga pinagtagpi-tagping old posts ko yan kaya medyo mahihilo ka. I'm not a scholary historian by profession and not a good storyteller. Kaya kung meron man gagawa ng libro ukol dito, ako'y matutuwa kung kukuha sya sa mga ideas na nakapaloob dito. Dahil nararapat na, na malaman ng bawat Pilipino na Maharlika o dakila ang kanyang lipi at nakatadhana ang isang malaking papel ng Pilipinas na kanyang gagampanan na ikararangal ng buong mundo.
    Last edited by albertus magnus; Apr 20, 2010 at 10:32 PM.

  19. #18
    Los Indios Bravos albertus magnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peace Crusader View Post
    20100420.1630

    My Dear Fellowmen,

    I believe that the Philippines was connected to the Majapahit and Srivijayan empires before the coming of the Spaniards in 1521.

    What did the Chinese traders note on something like religious items that littered the places of the people from Mait or the barbarians?

    These questions may be off-topic but somehow related to the current topic:

    Why did the Spaniards have the Galleon Trade routed through the Pacific Ocean and Mexico which is much longer way to Spain? There is the trans-shipment of goods from Acapulco on the Pacific Ocean to the other side of Mexico facing the Atlantic Ocean to Spain?

    Why did the Spaniards not use the Malaya Strait, Indian Ocean and Cape of Good Hope route to Spain instead? This route may be shorter.

    With love, your brother in Jesus,
    Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
    Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
    http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
    "The Internet is mightier than the sword."
    There was a competition between various Western empires on the traderoutes. The shorter route seemed to be controlled by the Dutch, the British, and before that the Portuguese, all competitors of Spain.

    I read somewhere, that Buddha statues made of copper, bronze and gold abound throughout the isles according to some Portuguese or Spanish explorers. (This was during the time many years before the actual colonization of the Spaniards because during the invasions, these statues were nowhere to be found.) When asked by the explorers what were those buddha statues, our forefathers answered that these were not objects of worship as they had their own anitos for venerations but these buddha statues were simply heirlooms passed on from generation to generation. So prior to the coming of the Spaniards, there seemed to be series of events(invasions concurrently I presumed with disasters such as the Pinatubo eruption during the 14th century for e.g. or proselytizatons) which made our ancestors forgot or abandon the worship of let's say Buddha or other Hindu gods and goddesses like Tara for e.g. and revert back to the core indigenous animistic and shamanistic beliefs while their rulers converted to Islam. Some kingdoms such as those in Manila including Pampanga, Mactan, Sulu and Maguindanao were Moslems before the Spaniards came. It is to be noted that the Bruneians headed by Sultan Bulkeiah also known as the singing captain, Nakhoda Ragam, came to invade Selurong or Luzon twice and established the city state of Manila to countercheck Tondo, the traditional capital of the Kingdom of Luzon or the Kingdom of Sapa, for Brunei's trading interest (to covet the highly prized China trade). The descendants of the resulting intermarriage between Nakoda Ragam and the daughter of the vanquished Majapahit ally, Datu Gambang of the Pasig based Kingdom of Luzon or Selurung were the Lakandula and the Solimans(Soliman III of Manila, being the last ruler during the time of the Spanish conquest).

    Some theorized that some form of Nestorian Christianity was also present among the isles but vanished by the proselytization of the Bruneians.
    Last edited by albertus magnus; Apr 20, 2010 at 09:47 PM.

  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by albertus magnus View Post
    rotfl

    Gaya ng sabi ni AMBASSADOR EDGARDO B. ESPIRITU:
    In the last several decades, the Filipino people have been weighed down by a poor self-image as a nation.

    A poor opinion of ourselves, of course, reinforces other nations’ already shoddy, albeit misinformed and unfair, impression of our national character, and undermines our efforts toward enhanced competitiveness and development. Many among the last three generations at least have come to regard the Filipino as being a cheat, a slacker, and an ungovernable juvenile.

    But this is, of course, not true. And this has not always been the Filipino’s image of himself. Ask your grandparents and great grandparents.

    There was a time when we as a nation held close to our hearts the sterling values of hardwork and perseverance, of honesty and being true to one’s word, of social responsibility and caring for the common weal. This unsavory self-image is a fairly recent phenomenon, a product of recent twists and turns in our national history and of our tendency toward self-deprecation and self-criticism. But even if we have already witnessed many cases in the recent past that seem to confirm that this self-image is aligned with reality, I would say that these cases do not represent the great majority of basically decent, hardworking, and God-fearing Filipinos.

    very good message. even my dad (now in his 70's) share the same sentiments. my late grandfather was a writer/author and professor
    at UP Diliman. although i never had the chance to see him (i was a
    toddler when he passed away) my father often told us how our
    grandfather valued self-dignity, honesty, and perseverance. These
    are the traits that people in the olden days held on to.
    Last edited by pecanpie; Apr 21, 2010 at 09:17 AM.

  21. #20
    Los Indios Bravos albertus magnus's Avatar
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    crosslinking... http://www.pinoyexchange.com/forums/...&postcount=123
    Out of Taiwan Theory versus Out of Sundaland(Mu) Theory, Origin of the Filipinos


    FWIW,

    which explains why some Nordic Swedes have Asiatic features...

    A counter-clockwise northern route of the Y-chromosome haplogroup N from Southeast Asia towards Europe

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v.../5201748a.html
    Although having variable frequency scales, the spatial distributions for ancestral paragroup NO-M214*, paragroup N-M231* and the prevalent hg O-M175 (Figure 2a, c, d) are generally congruent and highlight Southeast Asia as the most parsimonious source region of these clades. The spread pattern of paragroup NO* approximates the same regions of Southeast Asia as paragroup N*, although being present at an even lower frequency compared with N*18, 19 (data from Kayser et al19 updated in present study). More notable, however, is the fact that the spatial dynamics of the whole N and O haplogroups greatly differ from each other. The split between N* and O is dated to 34.64.7 thousand years (ky). The age of STR variation of hg O in Southeast Asia probably exceeds 26 ky,10 and its numerous subclades currently predominate in southern and southeastern Asia extending into northern China, Manchuria and some Siberian populations,7, 9, 11, 20, 21 as well as westward to the eastern sector of the Indian subcontinent10 and eastward to Oceania.18, 19
    The K* haplotype from SEA is probably the source of the Mongoloid Haplogroup O as well as Haplogroup N while it is virtually absent in Central Asia as well as the Near East. Su et al and Chu et al are all in agreement. East Asians came from Southeast Asia and not Central Asia.

    http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/8/146/
    Paternal genetic affinity between western Austronesians and Daic populations

    From that study(above link), it confirmed that the newer O1 haplotypes present among Taiwanese aborigenes can't be the patrilines to the Island Southeast Asians being those found in Indonesia more varied and older.

    Unfortunately no Philippine population were sampled for that study. If they did that and correlated with the newer Karafet studies as well as this... http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/09/y-chr...gritos-and.html or http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/nc...hg2010162a.html ----
    ----...they would have considered Philippines or Eastern Indonesia as the origin of the Austronesians as well as the Daics also

    Again, in the above study:
    The ISEA populations may also be admixed. In our study, we assumed that the ISEA were mixed by three potential parental populations: Daic populations, Taiwan aborigines, and the indigenous populations of the Sunda Islands, who are similar to Papuans. We performed an admixture analysis on the Indonesians, and included data of the Papuans from the literature [36,37] as one of the parental population structures in the analysis. Our analysis showed the following admixture proportions: Daic (0.713 ± 0.124), Taiwan (0.143 ± 0.125), and Papuans (0.144 ± 0.050), indicating that the contribution of the Daic ancestry on the Indonesians is the most dominant. There is some uncertainty in these data as our assumption that the ISEA population is an admixture can not be tested.
    In the bolded portions, they assumed that the heterogeneity in Island SEA populations is contributed by Admixture primarily and haven't tested the possibility that it might predominantly be by Transition/Splitting/Divergence/Genetic Continuum. For if they consider the latter and consider Admixture as a recent phenomenon and lesser in significance, the very diverse and older Indonesians/Philippines genotypes are therefore be far more ancestral to both Daics and to Taiwanese aborigenes. And they would have revise their conclusion that the Daics as ancestral to both Indonesians and Taiwanese aborignes favoring Indonesian/Philippines genotypes as ancestral to both the Daics and Taiwanese aborigines. A simple assumption could change greatly the complexion of the conclusion. Unfortunately what will be read by the greater majority will be just the conclusion and the abstract and will be considered the bible or the scientific facts. Without reading this minor nuances, one will be swayed by the conclusion coming from an interpretation of an assumption which could be flawed.

    In the newer studies, K* as well as NO* is found in the Philippine isles, these patrilines being the ancestors to all the O haplogroups found among the Daics, Sino tibetans, Austrics(Austro Asiatic and Austronesians)

    The northern route or via Central Asia lack those markers and thus proving the southern route in the migrations of humans from Africa to South Asia then to Southeast Asia. Then K splitted to NO then splitted to O1, O2, O3 as they migrated up north. The Southern Route was verified by both Chu et al and Su et al and reflected on newer studies as well.

    I can help but find the parallelism in terms of K, P, and R haplogroups of the Aryan invasion versus the Out of India theory and corresponding respectively to the Taiwan homeland hypothesis versus the K, NO, and O haplogroups of the Out of Indonesia/Philippines theory.

    In conclusion, in terms of Genetic continuuty: Southern Chinese-Daics-Taiwanese aborignes-Filipinos-Indonesians-Daics-Southern Chinese (With Filipinos and Indonesians as ancestral to the Daics, Taiwanese aborigenes and the Southern Chinese)

    Returning to the question of Out of India theory versus Out of Central Asia theory/Aryan Invasion theory:

    My interpretation is there is a Genetic Continuum between Australoids and Caucasoids in South Asia just like in Southeast Asia(SEA), there is a genetic continuum between the Mongoloids and the Australoids. Indians are not Aryans from Central Asia up north invading/colonising/interbreeding with Dravidians from the South. But rather the Aryans R1b Western European Caucasoid haplotype and Eastern European South Asian R1a, R2 haplotype descended via the P haplotype from the Australoid K haplotype(with its daugher L haplotype and its ancestral C haplotype are also found in South Asia) or in layman's term, both the Aryans and the Dravidians shared the same ancestry in South Asia with the former who went northward then going to Central Asia and to the Middle East, then finally going to Europe. R splitted from K via P haplotype. Mongoloid O haplogroup also came from the K haplotype. C, D, K haplogroups travelled southward into SEA then northwards with K splitting to the various O haplogroups of East Asians and SEAsians. N, P, Q, S, and T all splitted from K. P haplotype the immediate ancestry of R haplogroup as accdg to wiki splitted from K during 20,000 to 40,000 yrs ago from Central Asia and siberia which is quite impossible knowing that the last glacial maximum which started 70,000 yrs ago and ending 10,000yrs ago was all covered with ice or if not in a very inhospitable condition. I wager tropical South Asia as the place of the splitting of R from P just like L splitted from K in South Asia also just about the same time. Himalayan mountain ranges were covered with very thick glaciers which extended into the Hindu Kush mountain ranges(Hindu killer) preventing southward migration from Central Asia and the Middle East respectively refuting the Aryan invasion theory with the Aryans coming from the chilly north. So, you have in the wiki, R haplotype in about 20,000yrs ago either originated in South Asia, Central Asia or the Middle East. I wager South Asia is the correct one and not Central Asia for the above reason. And only in the end of the last glacial period during 10-15,000 yrs ago, when R migrated to the Middle East crossing the terrible Hindu Kush mountain ranges and to the arid Central Asia steppes, which then became hospitable as the glaciers retreated. Current researchers have it backwards, it should be northward migration and not southward migration as the icy sheet retreated and making the northern arid steppe areas more hospitable to humans.

    Sumerians seemed to be related to the Austrics(Austro Asiatic plus Austronesian) of South Asia and SEA. The Sumerian civilization, the first civilization in the Middle East, sprung forth from the Indus civililizations.

    Western Civilization owes itself to the Civilizations in Indus Valley. Western Civilization came from the Romans'. The Romans' from the Greeks'. The Greeks' from the Phoenicians and the Ancient Egyptians. Phoenicians' from the Sumerians'. Accdg to the Ancient Egyptian, their motherland was Punt in the Eritrean sea(Indian Ocean) and so the Brazilian scientist's story goes. -elaugh

    Btw, T haplotype also known as K2, a direct offshoot of K haplotype(Non African) is found among Egyptians, Ethiopians, and Indians particularly Dravidians and Austro-Asiatics. So proving that from South Asia, R haplogroup migrants together with T haplotype migrated northwards and westwards during the Deluvial period(end of the last Ice age) and with the T haplotype finding its way into the Middle East then to Northeast Africa to the horn of Africa. T haplotype found its way into Europe too and among Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews. Sumerian, Ancient Egyptian and Indus Valley Civilizations were all interconnected.

    R haplogroup splitted from P haplotype, 20,000 yrs ago(Ice Age period).

    If a class of people has a higher numbers of R haplogroup than to another class of people. That doesn't mean the former class are the source of R and interbreeding with another lower class to impart those R haplogroup. Ancient societies in prehistoric times tended to be clannish with ethnic taboos forbidding intermarriages between classes and other ethnic groups.

    Since Europe has the higer numbers of R haplogroup, can we say R haplogroup originated from it.

    The place with the higher molecular variance as what apac45 termed is the location of where the splitting occurs.

    For one thing Western Asia as well as Central Asia, lack the K and P haplotypes, the immediate ancestry of R haplogroup. Those above areas can't be the areas where R originated. R just didn't appear out of nowhere. K haplotype with K* and MNOPS is found at a lower frequency in India but with higher frequency in SEA and Oceania but P haplotpe as P* the immediate ancestor of R haplogroups is found in higher frequency in India. P originated from K btw.

    Trivia: A famous member of the T or K2 haplogroup is Thomas Jefferson.


    The Tropical Rainforest could be the biblical Lost Paradise immortalized in the masterpieces of John Milton by Ave V. Rotor

    http://avrotor.blogspot.com/2010/12/part-1...last-stand.html


    Tropical Eden?
    http://sambali.blogspot.com/2007/01/garden...n-glossary.html
    http://sambali.blogspot.com/2005/03/edens-bearings.html

    Kunlun?
    http://sambali.blogspot.com/2007/02/...-glossary.html
    K* haplotype(paternal to the Mongoloid O haplogroup, Caucasoid R haplogroup, Ancient Egyptian K2/T haplogroup and Amerindians Q haplogroup) found among Kunlun people(negritoes)

    Fusang?
    http://sambali.blogspot.com/2006/10/...-glossary.html

    Penglai?
    http://sambali.blogspot.com/2005_12_27_archive.html
    http://sambali.blogspot.com/2006/09/phoeni...g-glossary.html
    http://sambali.blogspot.com/2006/07/geoman...l-glossary.html
    http://sambali.blogspot.com/2009/03/search...d-mountain.html

    Shamballah?
    http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/shambhala.htm

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