Are be better off 500 years after the Reformation?

[ElCid]

I would just like to know if we are better off 500 years after the REFORMATION in terms of the following:

o Church Unity
o Unity in Doctrine and understanding of Scripture
o Unity in Church practices

If not then perhaps we could consider the REFORMATION as a failure? So what do you guys think?

[anima9]

I think you're W key is near you're B key.

@Topic: As a failure on what?

[OrionPax]

This view is not limited to the Reformists

1) Failure: From 3 or 4 major Protestant denoms, it split into several sub denoms excluding Restorianist movements , each with its own inherent doctrines and Scriptural interpretation

2) Failure: among Major Reformist (Protestant) denoms
Plus: for Latin Rite & Eastern Catholics

3) Failure: On a macro level Reformists
Plus: Some Protestant denoms "share" the same church practice/s (vis a vis)
Plus: for Latin Rite and Eastern Rite Catholics (members of both Rites can attend Mass/Divine Liturgy and vice versa).
Plus: Eastern Orthodoxy faithful are accepted by Catholic clergy during Mass
Plus: for Anglican Catholics slowly returning to the communion with Rome
Plus: Revocation of mutual excommunications of Catholicism and Orthodoxy

[-=Sniper=-]

I would just like to know if we are better off 500 years after the REFORMATION in terms of the following:

o Church Unity
o Unity in Doctrine and understanding of Scripture
o Unity in Church practices

If not then perhaps we could consider the REFORMATION as a failure? So what do you guys think?

Question: Do we really need conformity?

And BTW, notice how TS has prepared his thread in such a way that it would narrow down the topic and make the reformation look such a failure

[sophion]

The Reformation failed the Church but it succeeded for Humanity. Religious tolerance was realized because of it.

Its the church that failed itself. The church made the reformation inevitable. The church made the french revolution inevitable.

[-=Sniper=-]

The Reformation failed the Church but it succeeded for Humanity. Religious tolerance was realized because of it.

Yes, and furthermore who did it fail anyway? Just because one particular organization didn't like this historical even doesn't mean it's a failure.

And granted even just for the sake of argument, why should unity be that much important in the first place?

[sophion]

why should unity be that much important in the first place?

its important from the christian perspective because jesus emphasized it.

[-=Sniper=-]

its important from the christian perspective because jesus emphasized it.

Chapter and verse please.

And furthermore, I'm looking at this at a secular/neutral perspective, not the Christian one. Just because there's unity does not mean the belief system is right.

And I do agree with you though, whilst the reformation "failed" the Catholic Church, it was a triumph for humanity for it allowed the progression towards the enlightenment, and finally, our modern age.

[sophion]

^ John 17:20-21

My prayer is not for them only, but for all who will have faith in me through their word; May they all be one! Even as you, Father, are in me and I am in you, so let them be in us, so that all men may come to have faith that you sent me

[-=Sniper=-]

^ John 17:20-21

My prayer is not for them only, but for all who will have faith in me through their word; May they all be one! Even as you, Father, are in me and I am in you, so let them be in us, so that all men may come to have faith that you sent me

That's vague, "one" in what exactly? Nowhere does it even say that Christians should be in a single bureaucratic religious organization...

[sophion]

Nowhere does it say that Christians should be in a single organization...

thats how they interpret it. and the way its going right now, there's not much unity in anything unless its within the organization. like what unites an Amish with a Roman Catholic, or an Orthodox with a Catholic, or a JW with an INC.

and the way jesus compared the unity with his relationship with the father...it does sound like an organization or chains of authority.

[-=Sniper=-]

thats how they interpret it.

Then that's just what it is then, an interpretation. Like I said, it's vague, it could be anything and it doesn't even have to be related in terms to what TS said.

and the way jesus compared the unity with his relationship with the father...it does sound like an organization or chains of authority.

That's your interpretation, and it will stay that way, and no amount of hocus-pocus will change that. Anyway, this is all for now, I'm tired and I need to sleep. Till next time my friend...

[ElCid]

Question: Do we really need conformity?

By biblical standards - YES:

Ephesians 4:4-6 (King James Version)

4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

And BTW, notice how TS has prepared his thread in such a way that it would narrow down the topic and make the reformation look such a failure

Firstly, because it keeps the topic manageable. You have to learn focus Sniper.

Second, since the topic is about the REFORMATION, then it should be about church matters dealing with the doctrine and practice of the faith.

Third, it is irrelevant if there are other matters which sprung from the REFORMATION, and it only shows that it is a failure in the aspects where it should matter the most - FAITH, DOCTRINE AND PRACTICE. Have they achieved that? A resounding NO is the answer. As far as the aforementioned is concerned the REFORMATION IS A DISMAL FAILURE.

The protestant reformation in other words REFORMED NOTHING in the church. Real and genuine reform started from the Catholic Reformation:

The Counter-Reformation (also Catholic Reformation[1][2] or Catholic Revival[2]) denotes the period of Catholic revival beginning with the Council of Trent (1545-1563) and ending at the close of the Thirty Years' War, 1648.

The Counter-Reformation was a comprehensive effort, composed of five major elements:

1. Doctrine
2. Ecclesiastical or structural reconfiguration
3. Religious orders
4. Spiritual movements
5. Political dimensions

Such reforms included the foundation of seminaries for the proper training of priests in the spiritual life and the theological traditions of the Church, the reform of religious life by returning orders to their spiritual foundations, and new spiritual movements focusing on the devotional life and a personal relationship with Christ, including the Spanish mystics and the French school of spirituality.

[nicolai_frank]

Read further:

Ephesians 4

13 Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ.

[ElCid]

Ano napala natin 500 after the reformation? Yung existence ng INC? Reporma bang maituturing yung ginagawa nila conic et al? lolz.

[krams]

nagreformation pala yung catholic bakit lalung lumala? ahihihi

[Ash_Ketchum]

Read further:

Ephesians 4

13 Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ.

True, true true.

[sophion]

nagreformation pala yung catholic bakit lalung lumala? ahihihi

thats like shooting your own foot. kung walang reformation wala din ang INC.

[krams]

bakit masyadong kampi si sophion sa catholic pero isa naman siyang atheist ahihihi pero kapag INC pinaguusapan batikos dun batikos dito noh pansin niyo ba?

so utang na loob yan sophion?

[sophion]

^ Kampi??? basahin mo nga iyung mga naunang post ko beginning in march. kampi ako sa reformation hindi sa catholic church.