Capitalism Driving Humanity's Downfall

[Aquaman]

Increasing world population is not created by Capitalism.

Replace capitalism with another system human population will still grow--which means consumption will still grow.

Mass murderers like Hitler, Stalin & Napoleon are somehow good for the planet. Killing a few million people every now & again buys the planet earth some time before it's resources get used up.

It's like spraying pesticide to kill enough parasites so the entire crop won't go to waste.

[loengrim0626]

^yes. but it doesn't really have to end in war.

in fact, war is the outcome we should all be trying to
prevent.

as i see it.. there are two main kinds of assets. just call it:
1) tangible (ie: gold, real estate, etc.) and
2) intangible (ie: currency, bonds, etc)
for simplicity.

when the economy finally crashes down on itself, then it's the
intangible assets that goes tumbling down with it.

however, as long as the tangible assets are there and as long
as we can keep production running. then the economy still
has the ability to bounce back and recover.

and that's the reason why the oil crisis and global
warming is gonna take center stage in all of this.

simply because they're gonna have a huge and profound impact on
transport and production. which is what's gonna put
our economies into a screeching halt.

however, since the population cap will peak along with food
production AND if we can harness sustainable energy to maintain
our production and transport.

THEN we'll finally have a chance to survive the market crash
without the need of going to war with each other, then followed by
an overhaul to fix our financial systems.

at least that's what i'm hoping for.

[paenggoy]

Increasing world population is not created by Capitalism.

Replace capitalism with another system human population will still grow--which means consumption will still grow.

Mass murderers like Hitler, Stalin & Napoleon are somehow good for the planet. Killing a few million people every now & again buys the planet earth some time before it's resources get used up.

It's like spraying pesticide to kill enough parasites so the entire crop won't go to waste.

Actually, you came up with the answer accidentally, as seen in your last paragraph.

The most efficient way to produce lots of goods, especially food and medicine, is through manufacturing and mechanized agriculture, and these in turn can only exist through capitalist systems. And it's food and medicine, together with sanitation systems and dependent on various infrastructure (not to mention technology ranging from food storage to pesticides), that ensure lower infant mortality rates and longer life expectancies. Manufacture of these goods are in turn dependent on very efficient sources of energy, and the best we have is oil.

That is why world population went up steadily after wood and later coal were used, but not very much. It was when oil was used commercially during the late 1850s that manufacturing took off, and with it, more food, medicine, technologies for health care and sanitation, etc., which led to improvements in health. The ave. life expectancy had been only around 30 or less for centuries, but at the start of the twentieth century, it went up to 40 for the U.S. and 60 by the end of WWII. Other countries soon followed, and with it, a major increase in population.

Population increase has slowed down in some countries due to affluence, but the amount of resources used is offset by savings due to lower birth rates. Hence, we have countries like the U.S., which has less than 5 pct of the global population but consuming up to 25 pct of world oil production. Now, not only population but resource consumption per capita is increasing in China, India, and other countries.

The irony, then, is that the very system that led to longer life spans is also consuming resources quickly. Never mind mass murder, which actually goes against capitalism (which requires increasing production and consumption of goods by more consumers for more profits). In the end, nature bats last, and her two major weapons are global warming (and environmental disaster in general) and resource shortages (esp. peak oil).

[paenggoy]

yup. don't worry i got the gist of it.

i'm also one of the people aware of the impending crisis
caused by the dwindling oil reserves.


---
on a sidenote: do you think the spy ring scandal is being
used by the US to pick a fight with russia?

i remember last time they used rumors about "weapons of
mass destruction" as a smokescreen to steal away Iraq's
oil reserves.

so i'm kinda worried how desperately low america will steep
down to, just to get more access to oil..

but it's mostly just speculation on my part.

It's good to know that you are aware of these problems. I believe that most Filipinos know very little about the global economic crisis or peak oil, although they are more aware now of global warming and at least environmental damage.

About your other points, they may be part of false flags, like the sinking of the South Korean ship weeks ago.

[SeedTalk]

"We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered." -- Tom Stoppard.

[loengrim0626]

It's good to know that you are aware of these problems. I believe that most Filipinos know very little about the global economic crisis or peak oil, although they are more aware now of global warming and at least environmental damage.

About your other points, they may be part of false flags, like the sinking of the South Korean ship weeks ago.

hmm..

something about testing the waters and goading the other one
to open aggression while at the same time maintaining the image
of the "victim" so that they can take the moral high-ground no
matter the outcome.

i seem to notice this behavior in 'bullies' or 'drama queens',
though i'm not sure if the same behavioral pattern applies to an
entire nation.

i guess i'll just wait for further developments.

--------
edit: back on topic.

capitalism encourages economic growth. but somehow i'm not
convinced that capitalism relies entirely on economic growth.
because i believe that the population will eventually reach it's peak
only to the point where our food resources can support it.

hence, supply and demand will also reach it's peak. but as long
as they exist, capitalism can also exist.

so it really falls down to our ability to maintain production and
transportation through sustainable resources to keep supply and
demand stable.

which is why our focus should be on finding ways to harness
renewable energy to maintain that stability.

[Artemio Ricarte]

^yes. but it doesn't really have to end in war.

in fact, war is the outcome we should all be trying to
prevent.

as i see it.. there are two main kinds of assets. just call it:
1) tangible (ie: gold, real estate, etc.) and
2) intangible (ie: currency, bonds, etc)
for simplicity.

Perhaps a better idea is to abolish all forms of income not earned through actual work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qhu9xz18P0

"Work alone can create new work; money cannot create work. Work alone can create values, values with which to reward those who work." Adolf Hitler [BERLIN, RHEINMETALL-BORSIG WORKS - SPEECH OF DECEMBER 10, 1940]

[Artemio Ricarte]

Unfortunately, capitalism requires continuous economic growth, no matter what system is involved (state capitalism, free market capitalism, etc.). Given that, what will eventually stifle capitalism are finite resources and, according to the video linked earlier, credit bubbles. I explained these problems in my previous message.

This is not so much the problem. There will always be a rise and fall, and then a consequent re-rise.

A fall is not necessarily bad, it actually helps signal an economy to start a "general clean up" of non-performing "dead wood". Capitalism does not die just because growth is not "continuous". Ex. Capitalists can still invest on devalued properties during bad times and then hope to make good when the markets rebound.

This also pschologically helps people rethink and reevaluate their priorities, it also helps them appreciate more the things they still have.

THE REAL PROBLEM OF CAPITALISM IS USURY!

[daly732000]

In anything we do there is always pros and cons. Privately owned companies do create competitions which will benefit the consumers. Best product, best price. At the sametime, in order for private investors to be on top of the competition they have to be innovative. This requires intelligent and hard work, sometimes patients too. I believe this is one of the reason why people live longer because of pacemaker, defribillator, antibiotics, baloon pumps, stents, Graft bypass etc. etc. CT scan, MRI, Pet scan. There is big market in healthcare because people will really spend a lot of money to live longer and prosperously. Ohhh not to mention beauty products.


The same with technology like washing machine, dryer, dish washer, cars, 4 wheels drive, microwave , desk top, notebook, cell phones, tv. etc etc. I mean, don't we work hard so we can earn alot of money and spend them on these products.

The negative side of capitalism for eg. for every techhnology that gets created, it does require the use of natural resources.
And some do harm our environment. Plus greediness will sometimes get the best out of some investors. Just like Bill gates with his Microsoft.

I'm not so sure about "usury" maybe, but to pay a big role with capitalism, hmmmmm. I'm sure a lot of investors are a little bit ahead than the common people (smarter), that's why they have the dough and the vision to create products that people will buy or consume.

[paenggoy]

This is not so much the problem. There will always be a rise and fall, and then a consequent re-rise.

A fall is not necessarily bad, it actually helps signal an economy to start a "general clean up" of non-performing "dead wood". Capitalism does not die just because growth is not "continuous". Ex. Capitalists can still invest on devalued properties during bad times and then hope to make good when the markets rebound.

This also pschologically helps people rethink and reevaluate their priorities, it also helps them appreciate more the things they still have.

THE REAL PROBLEM OF CAPITALISM IS USURY!

This is not just a fall because demand is going up and resources remain limited. Major oil discoveries, for example, peaked in 1964. It's game over. First, credit bubbles will start bursting one after another, starting with subprime lending in '08, then interest rates for Option ARMs resetting after the stimulus packages dry up, then the real estate bubble bursting in China coupled with sovereign debt defaults, then oil production decline after '12.

Growth has to be continuous. In fact, your next sentence (i.e., the last sentence of your first paragraph) proves that.

Of course, there's a psychological factor involved. Why do you think almost everyone kept arguing before '08 that the U.S. and the global economy were too big to fail? Why do you think many are still in denial after "too big to fail" failed?

As for your last paragraph, but you have it the other way around: usury is not the "real problem" of capitalism. Rather, in capitalism usury is required. In fact, the last sentence of your first paragraph proves that.

[paenggoy]

Perhaps a better idea is to abolish all forms of income not earned through actual work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qhu9xz18P0

"Work alone can create new work; money cannot create work. Work alone can create values, values with which to reward those who work." Adolf Hitler [BERLIN, RHEINMETALL-BORSIG WORKS - SPEECH OF DECEMBER 10, 1940]

But this contradicts your next message, where you argue that one can make money by investing in devalued property. In fact, one can even invest in businesses that do that.

[paenggoy]

In anything we do there is always pros and cons. Privately owned companies do create competitions which will benefit the consumers. Best product, best price. At the sametime, in order for private investors to be on top of the competition they have to be innovative. This requires intelligent and hard work, sometimes patients too. I believe this is one of the reason why people live longer because of pacemaker, defribillator, antibiotics, baloon pumps, stents, Graft bypass etc. etc. CT scan, MRI, Pet scan. There is big market in healthcare because people will really spend a lot of money to live longer and prosperously. Ohhh not to mention beauty products.


The same with technology like washing machine, dryer, dish washer, cars, 4 wheels drive, microwave , desk top, notebook, cell phones, tv. etc etc. I mean, don't we work hard so we can earn alot of money and spend them on these products.

The negative side of capitalism for eg. for every techhnology that gets created, it does require the use of natural resources.
And some do harm our environment. Plus greediness will sometimes get the best out of some investors. Just like Bill gates with his Microsoft.

I'm not so sure about "usury" maybe, but to pay a big role with capitalism, hmmmmm. I'm sure a lot of investors are a little bit ahead than the common people (smarter), that's why they have the dough and the vision to create products that people will buy or consume.

For capitalism, the "pros" led to the "cons." See the lectures linked earlier for details.

[Artemio Ricarte]

But this contradicts your next message, where you argue that one can make money by investing in devalued property. In fact, one can even invest in businesses that do that.

I don't contradict anything, I ONLY SAID YOU MAKE MORE MONEY, NOT NECESSARILY MORE VALUE.

[Artemio Ricarte]

This is not just a fall because demand is going up and resources remain limited. Major oil discoveries, for example, peaked in 1964. It's game over. First, credit bubbles will start bursting one after another, starting with subprime lending in '08, then interest rates for Option ARMs resetting after the stimulus packages dry up, then the real estate bubble bursting in China coupled with sovereign debt defaults, then oil production decline after '12.

Growth has to be continuous. In fact, your next sentence (i.e., the last sentence of your first paragraph) proves that.

Of course, there's a psychological factor involved. Why do you think almost everyone kept arguing before '08 that the U.S. and the global economy were too big to fail? Why do you think many are still in denial after "too big to fail" failed?

As for your last paragraph, but you have it the other way around: usury is not the "real problem" of capitalism. Rather, in capitalism usury is required. In fact, the last sentence of your first paragraph proves that.

I understand what you are getting at but there is something inaccurate about saying that "capitalism requires continuous growth". Well of course not. As much as they would like nothing but uninterrupted growth, capitalists understand that you win some and you lose some, investors gamble, they speculate. There are ups and downs. You can't be a winner all the time, that would be so boring and predictable that it will probably kill the banking industry and capitalism itself.

It's like saying "armies require continuous victories to exist", which is folly.

[Artemio Ricarte]

....Rather, in capitalism usury is required. In fact, the last sentence of your first paragraph proves that.

Yes, not only is usury required, IT IS THE ONE THING THAT CAPITALISM REQUIRES CONSTANTLY, and that is what makes it a real problem.

[loengrim0626]

the problem of capitalism is the mantra that

"GREED IS GOOD".

you can blame Milton Friedman, and his proponents for that...

however, what most people fail to recognize is that the
entire world is trapped within an iterated "prisoner's dilemma", and if
you're familiar with game theory, then you'll recognize that
sometimes, maximizing your gains through greed will hit you back in
the long run, rather than maintaining sustainable gains through
mutual cooperation.

so i believe that in game theory lies the solution to the problems
caused by greed in capitalism. and i'd like to repeat that balanced
regulation (government or otherwise) is the key to maintaining
that stability.

also, i'd like to reiterate that demand IS dependent on population.
and as the population grows, then demand also grows.
however, population growth cannot exceed our ability to produce
and transport food. hence, demand cannot grow infinitely.

ultimately, what's important is our ability to maintain production
and transportation to satisfy supply and demand through
harnessing renewable energy..

(lol.. i'm starting to sound like a broken record player here.. )

[loengrim0626]

unrestrained greed wants huge short term profits more than they
want small but sustainable profits.

it has the bad habit of cannibalizing itself and killing the goose that
lays the golden eggs.

and to illustrate it more clearly, if you take away demands
generated for export, and focus on the demands generated by the
local working class.

it would be clear that if companies wants to increase local demand
from working citizens and increase their capacity to buy, THEN it is
imperative to also increase their worker's salaries.

because salary and the capacity to buy are dependent on
each other.

and the main reason why this is NOT happening is because the
companies rely too much on exports to fuel their profits, while
ignoring to increase their worker's salary, and forcing them to
buy based on 'credits', which they cannot pay back, forcing them
into debt, and thereby killing local demand in the process.

this is the weak point of capitalism, in that it relies too much on
exports and dirt-cheap labor.

it gives the company owners a huge profit while plummeting the
low and the middle-class into poverty. further increasing the
divide between the rich and the poor.

which is why the company's greed should NOT exceed
the greed of the work force.

otherwise it would self-destruct in the process. the way
that things are going on right now.

[paenggoy]

I don't contradict anything, I ONLY SAID YOU MAKE MORE MONEY, NOT NECESSARILY MORE VALUE.

And that's "actual work"?

[paenggoy]

I understand what you are getting at but there is something inaccurate about saying that "capitalism requires continuous growth". Well of course not. As much as they would like nothing but uninterrupted growth, capitalists understand that you win some and you lose some, investors gamble, they speculate. There are ups and downs. You can't be a winner all the time, that would be so boring and predictable that it will probably kill the banking industry and capitalism itself.

It's like saying "armies require continuous victories to exist", which is folly.

It is extremely obvious that capitalism requires continuous growth. Even if there are ups and downs as well as winners and losers, the trend for production and consumption is upwards worldwide. That is why oil production and consumption rates are rising, together with the production and use of other resources.

That is why capitalists argue that free market capitalism is best: it ensures prosperity for more people and an increasing choice of goods and services to choose from. This is extremely obvious even for you, as seen in the availability of goods and services that weren't readily available or didn't exist years ago. I'm sure you can give lots of examples.

The catch is that more credit is needed, which means credit bubbles bursting. That's what we are seeing right now with fallout from subprime lending. There will be more, leading to years of chronic unemployment and deflation. The second effect is peak oil, which is what we've been experiencing since 2005, with demand curtailed only because of economic problems. But once demand goes up once more as more people require more processed food, medicine, etc., and given a possible drop by oil production after '12....

The third effect, from resource depletion in general coupled with economic disaster, will be most difficult to solve. We are now seeing the effects of that from the gulf oil mess, which includes not only oil but even methane, and not only that but other problems, ranging from 40 pct drops in fish stocks worldwide to droughts.

[paenggoy]

Yes, not only is usury required, IT IS THE ONE THING THAT CAPITALISM REQUIRES CONSTANTLY, and that is what makes it a real problem.

Your statement, "the real problem of capitalism is usury" implies that capitalism can take place without usury.