Good Work as Necessary for Salvation, Can Men have that in the first place?

[Stonyclub]

Many people including majority of Catholics believe that it is not enough to have faith only as Evangelical Christians believe(including myself) to receive salvation from God, but one must first have good works also, to be fully saved by Jesus Christ.

1 What then is goodness that they have to boast about in the first place?

2 What is the meaning of goodness in their term, that is acceptable to God to be saved, if ever goodness or good work is needed?

Catholics are most welcome like Milliardo, Academ and others.

[Stonyclub]

It is already past 12 noon and it seems that the passionate Catholics can not justify their doctrine of faith + good works = salvation.

Silence mean therefore, that they have no goodness at all to add to their faith, thereby making the Biblical teaching that we are save by Faith alone, by Jesus alone and by Grace alone.

However let us give them the benefit of the doubt, that they are still preparing their answers or are very busy for the moment.

Hold on!

[irsyffe]

Hahaha! XP

I think it's because there are already a lot of threads similar to this one. Why not just post your views there, anyway?

[Stonyclub]

Hahaha! XP

I think it's because there are already a lot of threads similar to this one. Why not just post your views there, anyway?

Lead me there brother irsyffe. Thanks!

It seems my question is very scary and direct, that no one dares to be a hypocrite. And for that I am happy, that individuals can look what is inside of them and of me.

For what is inside of us will reveal the truth, that we are in one sense, if we are sincere, are horrors even to own selves.

[Kraven]

Same topics again and again. Come on people redundant na, atleast have some effort to innovate will you ?

e.g

pexer 1: wrong faith + bad works = hell
pexer 2: noooo! you don't need bad works to go to hell! you just need to have the wrong faith
pexer 1: *insert biblical quotations here*
pexer 2: *insert counter biblical quotation here*
pexer 1 and 2: *insert gibberish flame replies here*

haha

[irsyffe]

Personally, for me, good works takes on a whole new meaning.

Like I've been previously posting, for me good works means works of love (genuine love at that). I don't think good works count if they're not sincere, and are done in order to "deliberately better oneself." Good works should be done without the sense of liberating oneself. Good works should be spontaneous, because that proves that they come from the goodness of your heart and not some selfish motive. I think that's what Paul meant in that verse, hence the phrase "so that we may not boast."

And so, if these good works are sincere works of love, I believe they count. God is love (1 John 4:8), after all.

I think that in order to further this discussion and make it more relevant, people should first define their understanding of each term. Because "Good works" can be a very broad term, if one were to look at it.

[Stonyclub]

Personally, for me, good works takes on a whole new meaning.

Like I've been previously posting, for me good works means works of love (genuine love at that). I don't think good works count if they're not sincere, and are done in order to "deliberately better oneself." Good works should be done without the sense of liberating oneself. Good works should be spontaneous, because that proves that they come from the goodness of your heart and not some selfish motive. I think that's what Paul meant in that verse, hence the phrase "so that we may not boast."

And so, if these good works are sincere works of love, I believe they count. God is love (1 John 4:8), after all.

I think that in order to further this discussion and make it more relevant, people should first define their understanding of each term. Because "Good works" can be a very broad term, if one were to look at it.

Correct brother irsyffe! The person who say goodness is also needed plus faith to receive the git of salvation, should first define to himself, 'what goodness I am talking about? Is my goodness enough in God's eyes. Or is my goodness, a horror to God, and for that matter, a terrible horrors even on my own eyes.'. For if a person is sincere and truthful to himself?, that person knows exactly the accurate answer.

For the Catholic idea is that good works is needed to add to faith in order that salvation will be granted is a very dangerous doctrine. Because they may be talking about good works that is acceptable to them - in human terms, but not necessarily acceptable in God's own terms.

[irsyffe]

Correct brother irsyffe! The person who say goodness is also needed plus faith to receive the git of salvation, should first define to himself, 'what goodness I am talking about? Is my goodness enough in God's eyes. Or is my goodness, a horror to God, and for that matter, a terrible horrors even on my own eyes.'. For if a person is sincere and truthful to himself?, that person knows exactly the accurate answer.

For the Catholic idea is that good works is needed to add to faith in order that salvation will be granted is a very dangerous doctrine. Because they may be talking about good works that is acceptable to them - in human terms, but not necessarily acceptable in God's own terms.

I do, however, have a question about your beliefs.

If we're to use my definition of good works, do you think a person can receive salvation? Let's say he lives in a very remote province where he has never heard of Jesus, yet his heart is good. Would you say he could be saved?

[Stonyclub]

Personally, for me, good works takes on a whole new meaning.

Like I've been previously posting, for me good works means works of love (genuine love at that). I don't think good works count if they're not sincere, and are done in order to "deliberately better oneself." Good works should be done without the sense of liberating oneself. Good works should be spontaneous, because that proves that they come from the goodness of your heart and not some selfish motive. I think that's what Paul meant in that verse, hence the phrase "so that we may not boast."

Just to add an insight to the bold statement brother irsyffe I made above, it implies really that we have no goodness at all in the first place to boast about that is acceptable in God's terms.

For if we say we have, we are now contradicting the very Word of God in Romans 3:23 that all men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

[Stonyclub]

I do, however, have a question about your beliefs.

If we're to use my definition of good works, do you think a person can receive salvation? Let's say he lives in a very remote province where he has never heard of Jesus, yet his heart is good. Would you say he could be saved?

Thank you for your question.

What do you mean 'yet his heart is good'? I just post Romans 3:23. All have sinned, Remember?

Additional supporting verses.
Romans 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better[b]? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.

So the Word of God explicitly says NO IS ONE GOOD IN HIS HEART even for those people who have never heard the name of Jesus.

[JOAQUIN_BURDADO]

ang galing naman ng konklusyon mo kapatid....3 hours lang walang sumagot sa thread mo, sinasabi mo na kaagad na bahag ang buntot naming mga katoliko....tsk tsk tsk....

una kapatid, mali ang "premise" ng thread mo....kasi hindi malinaw ang "objective" ng tanong mo....ano ba ang gusto mong patunayan sa tanong na iyan? mas magandang liwanagin natin at "i-qualify" ang mismong "objective" para mas malinaw ang paliwanagan.....

[nicolai_frank]

Many people including majority of Catholics believe that it is not enough to have faith only...

Do you mean there are Catholics who believe that faith alone is enough?

1 What then is goodness that they have to boast about in the first place?

Do you mean we Catholics perform good works for boasting alone?

2 What is the meaning of goodness in their term, that is acceptable to God to be saved, if ever goodness or good work is needed?

Still you don't know that? I guess you need Catechism here.

[Milliardo]

lol Why did you open another topic when there is still an ongoing topic of the same nature?

[Stonyclub]

ang galing naman ng konklusyon mo kapatid....3 hours lang walang sumagot sa thread mo, sinasabi mo na kaagad na bahag ang buntot naming mga katoliko....tsk tsk tsk....

una kapatid, mali ang "premise" ng thread mo....kasi hindi malinaw ang "objective" ng tanong mo....ano ba ang gusto mong patunayan sa tanong na iyan? mas magandang liwanagin natin at "i-qualify" ang mismong "objective" para mas malinaw ang paliwanagan.....

I have a qualifier my brother JB at the end, that I am going to give anyone the benefit of the doubt. Okay?

Anyway, to paraphrase the question, to make it direct and personal to you and to anybody is this.

Do you have brother JB the goodness in yourself to add to your faith? That you are perfectly obedient to the Word of God, that qualifies that same goodness of yours, to be acceptable to God and be added to your faith?

I have scriptural references above given to brother irsyffe to support my contention that no one is good, you, me or anybody else.

If you have one, that you believe that you are that good in God's term, then give us your reason and we will continue this interesting discussion.

[Stonyclub]

ang galing naman ng konklusyon mo kapatid....3 hours lang walang sumagot sa thread mo, sinasabi mo na kaagad na bahag ang buntot naming mga katoliko....tsk tsk tsk....

una kapatid, mali ang "premise" ng thread mo....kasi hindi malinaw ang "objective" ng tanong mo....ano ba ang gusto mong patunayan sa tanong na iyan? mas magandang liwanagin natin at "i-qualify" ang mismong "objective" para mas malinaw ang paliwanagan.....

I have a qualifier my brother JB at the end, that I am going to give anyone the benefit of the doubt. Okay?

Anyway, to paraphrase the question, to make it direct and personal to you andto anybody is this.

Do you have brother JB the goodness in yourself to add to your faith? That you are perfectly obedient to the Word of God, that qualifies that same goodness of yours, to be acceptable to God and be added to your faith and thereby receive salvation?

I have scriptural references above given to brother irsyffe to support my contention that no one is good, you, me or anybody else. If you have one, that you believe that you are that good in God's term, then give us your reason and we will continue this interesting discussion.

[irsyffe]

Thank you for your question.

What do you mean 'yet his heart is good'? I just post Romans 3:23. All have sinned, Remember?

Additional supporting verses.
Romans 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better[b]? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.

So the Word of God explicitly says NO IS ONE GOOD IN HIS HEART even for those people who have never heard the name of Jesus.

Do you honestly believe that...? It sounds like a very cynical view...

I'll use the life of Siddharta Gautama Buddha as an example. A man who gave up his riches once he saw how filled with suffering people were.

I think it's because your idea of "goodness" has to be perfect which is why we don't see eye to eye. Am I right?

If that's the case, it's like you're looking at things as black and white.

[Stonyclub]

Do you mean there are Catholics who believe that faith alone is enough?

What I meant is majority of Catholics believe that to be save is, to have faith and good works in the first place, to receive salvation.

Do you mean we Catholics perform good works for boasting alone?

I mean Catholics have good works to add to their faith to receive salvation from God, unaware that they are boasting, as if their good works is acceptable to God. This I what I meant brother.

Still you don't know that? I guess you need Catechism here.

Thanks, no need brother, I had been a Catholic since birth.

[Stonyclub]

Do you honestly believe that...? It sounds like a very cynical view...

I am not the one having a cynical view brother. I am sinner. You have God's Words right at your face. Tell Him He is cynical. because what He has written in the Bible makes Him so clear to be black and white. That He is so 'black and white' to your eyes, that you are barking and accusing me - the 'wrong guy', that is me, having a cynical view of the Bible. Do not complain to me. I have nothing to complain about His Own Words.

If you do not like His plain statement in the Bible, you have the free 'will' to reject His word that we are 'no good' in His eyes. I cannot do anything about it. I have my own freedom to believe and agree that all of us is no good in His eyes. Okay?

I'll use the life of Siddharta Gautama Buddha as an example. A man who gave up his riches once he saw how filled with suffering people were.I think it's because your idea of "goodness" has to be perfect which is why we don't see eye to eye. Am I right?

If that's the case, it's like you're looking at things as black and white.

I have no original idea of goodness. I just read it from the Bible like yourselves, that everybody is a sinner and no one is good. Okay?

The 'life of Siddharta Gautama Buddha as an example.' does not changes anything about the truthfulness of the Bible. That is, if you believe with all you mind and heart, that the Bible is God's Word. Okay?

Remember God knows the heart of men. Okay? So i see no problem in the life of any men including Siddharta Gautama Buddha. God can see his heart too! He can easily take care of him. I am no God. I cannot judge any person's heart. Okay?

[JOAQUIN_BURDADO]

tanong ulit kapatid....para mapaliit natin yung sakop ng tanong mo....mas maliit, mas madaling mapagdiskusyunan.....

ang tanong ko ay ganit....ano ba ang pakahulugan mo sa "good works" na sinasabi sa biblia ni Apostol Pablo?

[Stonyclub]

lol Why did you open another topic when there is still an ongoing topic of the same nature?

It is getting interesting brother Milliardo, People seems not to mind that there is another discussion of this interesting topic.

You can look a this one, as a new look at a different angle so to speak, of the same issue. The other is an old and diffent side of the same issue. Okay?

Let get it on and continue it on brother Milliardo!