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  1. #1

    what do you think of purgatory?

    bold is mine

    http://lifeanddoctrinepurgatory.blogspot.com/

    "PURGATORY: An Introduction


    Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger; renowned theologian, Cardinal Prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (the former Holy Office), which is the most important Vatican curial office, charged with the preservation and promotion of Catholic orthodoxy, now Pope Benedict XVI, stated, “My view is that if Purgatory did not exist, we should have to invent it.’”[1]

    At a class on the Roman Catholic Faith[2] the teacher, Hermano Juan Sandoval was speaking on Purgatory when from the audience a question was asked to the effect of “If Purgatory is such an important doctrine, why didn’t Jesus teach us about it.” In one single breath Hermano Sandoval answered that the doctrine is not found in the Bible but that we could look it up in Matthew 12:32. This contradictory answer is very common because while the dogma is not Biblical the claim is made that the Bible implies it. After the class while discussing the issue with a Roman Catholic class attendee I pointed out that 2nd Maccabees 12:38-46 (the mother of all Purgatory scriptures) was not speaking of Purgatory and the footnotes in the Vatican approved Bible state as much. The response was yes it is speaking of Purgatory, and I repeated the Hermano’s words in saying that we were just taught that the doctrine of Purgatory is not found anywhere in the Bible. The student was kind enough to bring me a list of scriptures that attempt to prove the doctrine of Purgatory from the Bible.

    This true story is a good example of the sorts of problems that false doctrines cause. Without any sense of irony the teacher contradicted himself, and the student contradicted the teacher.
    This is isogesis, which is when we come to the Scripture with a preconceived notion and try to force the text to say what we want. As opposed to exegesis, which is when we come to the text with a clean slate and we allow the text to tell us what it says.

    Our purpose here will be to examine Purgatory proof texts, their footnotes and definitions from Roman Catholic Bibles. The Scriptures will be quoted from the New American Bible and the footnotes come from various other Roman Catholic Bibles and will be footnoted appropriately.

    “Therefore, there is now no condemnation
    for those who are in Christ Jesus”
    Romans 8:1"

    ok, what i posted is a blog, but what do you think?


    http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp
    "Money, Money, Money


    One argument anti-Catholics often use to attack purgatory is the idea that the Catholic Church makes money from promulgating the doctrine. Without purgatory, the claim asserts, the Church would go broke. Any number of anti-Catholic books claim the Church owes the majority of its wealth to this doctrine. But the numbers just don’t add up.

    When a Catholic requests a memorial Mass for the dead—that is, a Mass said for the benefit of someone in purgatory—it is customary to give the parish priest a stipend, on the principles that the laborer is worth his hire (Luke 10:7) and that those who preside at the altar share the altar’s offerings (1 Cor. 9:13–14). In the United States, a stipend is commonly around five dollars; but the indigent do not have to pay anything. A few people, of course, freely offer more. This money goes to the parish priest, and priests are only allowed to receive one such stipend per day. No one gets rich on five dollars a day, and certainly not the Church, which does not receive the money anyway.

    But look at what happens on a Sunday. There are often hundreds of people at Mass. In a crowded parish, there may be thousands. Many families and individuals deposit five dollars or more into the collection basket; others deposit less. A few give much more. A parish might have four or five or six Masses on a Sunday. The total from the Sunday collections far surpasses the paltry amount received from the memorial Masses.



    A Catholic "Invention"?


    Fundamentalists may be fond of saying the Catholic Church "invented" the doctrine of purgatory to make money, but they have difficulty saying just when. Most professional anti-Catholics—the ones who make their living attacking "Romanism"—seem to place the blame on Pope Gregory the Great, who reigned from A.D. 590–604.

    But that hardly accounts for the request of Monica, mother of Augustine, who asked her son, in the fourth century, to remember her soul in his Masses. This would make no sense if she thought her soul would not benefit from prayers, as would be the case if she were in hell or in the full glory of heaven.

    Nor does ascribing the doctrine to Gregory explain the graffiti in the catacombs, where Christians during the persecutions of the first three centuries recorded prayers for the dead. Indeed, some of the earliest Christian writings outside the New Testament, like the Acts of Paul and Thecla and the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity (both written during the second century), refer to the Christian practice of praying for the dead. Such prayers would have been offered only if Christians believed in purgatory, even if they did not use that name for it. (See Catholic Answers’ Fathers Know Best tract The Existence of Purgatory for quotations from these and other early Christian sources.)"

  2. #2
    IMPERSONATED Lola_Rose's Avatar
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    Hmmm... It depends if you believe in the authenticity of the Bible. I believe in what the Bible says and if there is no mention of Purgatory in the Bible, then I don't believe it exists. But that's me; my beliefs are solely based on the Scriptures.

    I don't find the logic of Purgatory, though, even if I do not believe in the Bible.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Lola_Rose View Post
    Hmmm... It depends if you believe in the authenticity of the Bible. I believe in what the Bible says and if there is no mention of Purgatory in the Bible, then I don't believe it exists. But that's me; my beliefs are solely based on the Scriptures.

    I don't find the logic of Purgatory, though, even if I do not believe in the Bible.
    But the people who compiled, edited and selected the books/scriptures that are now collectively known as the bible seems to think there is such a place. Why trust their selection of books and not their interpretation? Weren't they divinely inspired in choosing the books out of the hundreds of other early christian texts? And if so, maybe they were also inspired in interpreting the texts?

    Besides, Isn't there some Purgatory-like place in the OT?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

  4. #4
    If you are a Catholic and you have plenty of time please read these references. These will hopefully clear your doubts and will make you embrace more fully the beauty of the doctrine of purgatory.

    http://catholiceducation.org/article...cs/ap0091.html

    http://catholiceducation.org/article...on/re0225.html

    http://catholiceducation.org/article...cs/ap0041.html

  5. #5
    Christ, Cross, Catholic nicolai_frank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamLowry View Post
    But the people who compiled, edited and selected the books/scriptures that are now collectively known as the bible seems to think there is such a place. Why trust their selection of books and not their interpretation? Weren't they divinely inspired in choosing the books out of the hundreds of other early christian texts? And if so, maybe they were also inspired in interpreting the texts?

    Besides, Isn't there some Purgatory-like place in the OT?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna
    SamLowry, you are a Catholic in some ways.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by nicolai_frank View Post
    SamLowry, you are a Catholic in some ways.
    this insult is uncalled for, Nicolai

    see? I'm not close-minded. You have managed to convince me on this one.

  7. #7
    according to some scholars, ang earth mismo ang nagsisilbing purgartory!

  8. #8
    IMPERSONATED Lola_Rose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamLowry View Post

    Besides, Isn't there some Purgatory-like place in the OT?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna
    Hi! I've read the link and it was really interesting. I've learned that "Gehenna" is a Jewish hell, and Jewish hell is purgatory - "a place of purification and fire for the wicked, most being punished there up to a year but some for eternity." (Personally, though, Judaism has never been a preference of mine. Although I do not belong to any church, I prefer Christianity, but keeping it strictly scriptural.)


    Anyway, according to wikipedia on gehenna's entymology, the word was derived from the name of a literal valley in Jerusalem. So from what I understood, no Purgatory-like place in the OT and it's just a Jewish belief. I was hoping to read a biblical description or portrayal of Purgatory as the jews described it or the catholics described it ("purgatory is the condition, process, or place of purification or temporary punishment in which the souls of those who die in a state of grace are made ready for heaven."-wikipedia) but so far, I haven't found any biblical verse on this.

    According to the link, and from what I understood, in the synoptic gospel, Christ has mentioned the word "gehenna", but it wasn't the same as Judaism's gehenna, but Jesus means gehenna as hell - a place where both soul and body could be destroyed (Matthew 10:28) in "unquenchable fire" (Mark 9:43).

    According to the link, "the New Testament refers to hades as a destination of the dead. Hades is portrayed as a different place from gehenna. Yet, even so, the Book of Revelation describes the final destination of hades as the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14),"

    So, until now, I still haven't read a single biblical verse that describes such a place as Purgatory. Hell as a lake of fire and eternal damnation or eternal punishment, yes, I've read verses, like Mt. 5:22, Rev. 20:5-10, Rev 21:8, Rev. 20:8-10 Rev. 14:10-11.

    So, like I said, since I believe in keeping my beliefs scriptural (I personally believe that there is such a thing as "absolute truth" and and I have come to accept that it's the Bible out of the the thousand texts in the world) I don't believe in the existence of Purgatory.

    And personally, since I consider myself a follower of Christ, and Christ or the New Testament never mentioned a Purgatory-like place in the Bible, the more I do not believe in Purgatory.

    And based from my understanding on the wikipedia link, the word "gehenna" appears in the OT, but wikipedia did not offer any Bible verses in the OT that states a description of a Purgatory-like place.

    So in the OT and NT, I haven't read a verse that describes or proves that a Purgatory-like place exists....YET. Until then, I will simply cannot make myself believe in Purgatory - as someones who prefers to keep my beliefs strictly scriptural and same as the teachings of Christ.

    Also, biblically, only Heaven and Hell are mentioned in the Bible, so I only believe in Heaven and Hell.

    Because of the wikipedia link, though, I admit it's the 1st time I've learned that jews, like Catholics, has a doctrine on Purgatory. Thanks for the link.

    P.S.: Actually, my interest in Purgatory and my personal studies whether it does exist or not has stemmed from Jose Rizal who did not believe that Purgatory exists.
    Last edited by Lola_Rose; Jun 20, 2008 at 12:42 PM.

  9. #9
    Hello Lola Rose! please try this for a quick fix - 1 Cor. 3:13-15.

    And please check the links i posted earlier.

  10. #10
    Christ, Cross, Catholic nicolai_frank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamLowry View Post
    this insult is uncalled for, Nicolai

    see? I'm not close-minded. You have managed to convince me on this one.
    I know you are very intelligent, SamLowry.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by asp2designer View Post
    please try this for a quick fix - 1 Cor. 3:13-15.
    here it is :

    13 Each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.

    14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.

    15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

    whoa! a very clear indication of purgatory

  12. #12
    1 Cor. 3:13-15. Purgatory?

    1 Mga Taga-Corinto 3:9-15

    Ito ay sapagkat kami ay kamanggagawa ng Diyos, kayo ang taniman ng Diyos, kayo ang gusali ng Diyos.

    Ayon sa biyaya ng Diyos na ipinagkaloob sa akin, inilagay ko ang saligan. Inilagay ko ito tulad ng isang marunong na punong-tagapagtayo at may ibang nagtatayo roon. Subalit mag-ingat ang bawat isa kung papaano siya magtatayo roon.

    Ito ay sapagkat wala nang ibang saligang mailalagay ang sinuman maliban doon sa nakalagay na. Siya ay si Jesus na Cristo.

    Ngunit, ang isang tao ay maaaring magtayo sa saligang ito ng ginto, pilak, mga mamahaling bato, kahoy, damo o dayami.

    Ang gawa ng bawat tao ay mahahayag sapagkat may araw na ihahayag ito sa pamamagitan ng apoy. Ang gawa ng bawat isa, anumang uri ito ay susubukin ng apoy.

    Kung ang gawa na itinayo ng sinuman sa saligang ito ay nanatili, tatanggap siya ng gantimpala.

    Kung ang gawa ng sinuman ay masunog, malulugi siya. Gayunman, maliligtas siya ngunit tulad ng dumaan sa apoy.
    Kung yan purgatoryo ang tinutukoy diyan bakit ang sabi eh si Apostle Pablo ang naglagay ng saligan? Si Apostle Pablo ba ang nagtayo ng purgatoryo?

    At naglagay pa siya ng punong-tagapagtayo at may iba pang nagtayo!

  13. #13
    IMPERSONATED Lola_Rose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asp2designer View Post
    Hello Lola Rose! please try this for a quick fix - 1 Cor. 3:13-15.

    And please check the links i posted earlier.

    Hi! paintsripped alread quoted 1 Cor. 3:13-15., and I do agree that it still does not prove nor portray or describe a Purgatory-like place.

    The other links you posted, well, I'm not a Catholic and as long as a doctrine is not Biblical, I do not subscribe to it. So whatever reason or justifications the catholic church has about this doctrine - unless it's biblical, I reject it. My principle is rather simple: not biblical, not Christ's teachings. Not Christ's teachings, I firmly believe it's wrong. But thank you, asp2designer.

  14. #14
    Christ, Cross, Catholic nicolai_frank's Avatar
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    Rose, what is your understanding on purgatory based on the teaching?

  15. #15
    better off without it
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    ^ maybe lola could post her thoughts on that later

    please do me a favor though: what are the tenets of this catholic doctrine? and your understanding of it?

    p.s. an agnostic here

  16. #16
    Christ, Cross, Catholic nicolai_frank's Avatar
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    I will post mine after Rose posts her.

  17. #17
    Ang gawa ng bawat tao ay mahahayag sapagkat may araw na ihahayag ito sa pamamagitan ng apoy. Ang gawa ng bawat isa, anumang uri ito ay susubukin ng apoy.

    Ang gawa ng bawat isa ay ihahayag at susubukin sa pamamagitan ng apoy. Hindi tao na ilalagay sa apoy.

    May apoy lang eh purgatoryo na

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by nicolai_frank View Post
    I know you are very intelligent, SamLowry.
    you forgot the rolleye icon: hehe.

    nah. I'm not very intelligent tho I'd like to think I'm at least average tho . You'll (and a lot of theists here) prolly beat me in an Iq test. I just question everything including the beliefs that have been inculcated in me since birth.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Lola_Rose View Post

    The other links you posted, well, I'm not a Catholic and as long as a doctrine is not Biblical, I do not subscribe to it. So whatever reason or justifications the catholic church has about this doctrine - unless it's biblical, I reject it. My principle is rather simple: not biblical, not Christ's teachings. Not Christ's teachings, I firmly believe it's wrong. But thank you, asp2designer.
    I believe that the Catholic doctrines are biblical in as much as other religion would claim their's to be. However, Catholics have a different system of formulating its doctrines. The foundation of our doctrines rests on 3 pillars which are Oral tradition, Written tradition and the Magisterium.

    If you come to think of it, all christian religion derives all their teachings from the Catholic church and they just took away all the doctrines they didn't agreed upon and added their own twists.

    They haven't discovered any substantial doctrines that the Catholics haven't discovered yet, other than of course their own weird teachings.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by asp2designer View Post
    I believe that the Catholic doctrines are biblical in as much as other religion would claim their's to be. However, Catholics have a different system of formulating its doctrines. The foundation of our doctrines rests on 3 pillars which are Oral tradition, Written tradition and the Magisterium.

    If you come to think of it, all christian religion derives all their teachings from the Catholic church and they just took away all the doctrines they didn't agreed upon and added their own twists.

    They haven't discovered any substantial doctrines that the Catholics haven't discovered yet, other than of course their own weird teachings.
    If Catholic doctrines are biblical as much as other religion claim their's to be. This is the question.

    Where can you find in the bible about Mary's assumption?

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