A simple question. God's plan of Salvation and the FLOOD | Realm of Thought | PinoyExchange

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  1. #1

    A simple question. God's plan of Salvation and the FLOOD

    Ok, here is my question.

    Bible God supposedly set in place a plan for the salvation of all mankind by sending his Son Jesus to die for our sin. This plan was put into play after the fall of Adam.

    If God had this great salvific plan, why did He choose to drown almost everyone on this earth and left only a family to survive? And then send Jesus 4000 years later.

    Does this seem like God has a plan to save his creations? In simpler terms, God says I'll save you after 4000 years but in the meantime, I'll kill everyone off except for Noah and his family. But don't worry, I will send my only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. But until such time, farewell my little humans. It's gonna be rainy days ahead.

  2. #2
    OT: being a self-professed theist-turned-atheist, i am just wondering why you are still interested in creating thread topics that are "theist" in nature. does this mean that you are still open for a possibility of returning to a belief in God? just an honest question.

    another thing, sorry if i didn't make a reply out of the topic posted. maybe on my next post in this thread i will

  3. #3
    OT: These are questions that I realized after my change of belief. Why am I interested in creating thread topics that are "theist" in nature? My purpose is to provoke questions and offer alternative views. Sometimes, I just want to discuss and get a view from the opposite side. Am I still open for a possibility of returning to a belief in Bible God? well, the straight answer would be no. If I could, would I choose to go back to my previous faith? Sometimes, it seemed at least that my life would be easier. But I could not live my life knowing I was not being true to myself. I make do with what I am right now, and I have found peace instead of the false hopes and guilt that christianity offered. My humble opinion



    haba naman ng OT na yan. Hehehe.

  4. #4
    here's my alternative view:

    we know that it is scientifically possible that there was a great flood, Moses may also have known about this great flood, and he knew that people cant explain why this flood happened...so Moses may have used the story of the flood to be a punishment from his God, he needed to provide an answer to his followers.

    salvation from disasters

    the prophets and writers talks about a messiah, we know that the pharisees in Jesus' time are well educated with the scriptures written by these writers, they are sure that this messiah would deliver them from oppression

    salvation from conquerors/oppressors

    now Jesus, luckily matched the description of the prophets, being decendant of King David, wants to create a movement, but He needs a raket that would make people bite, at the same time a raket that He is able to do, He knows He doesnt have the abilities of a war hero of sort, He might have thought, why only Jews? why not everybody? why not the world? yes, saving people from eternal damnation....and so christianity was created

    salvation from eternal death

    the Bible was written to save people from anxiety, to give them hope, to strengthen their faith...and sadly, to organize the religion, to make people in line

    im sure protestant/born again christians would answer like this:
    "its not about the physical life God is saving, its the spirit/soul that God is after...the flood merely killed the body, Christ saves the spirit from eternal damnation. So are the drowned people in the great flood saved? that is another topic, much like a question if a baby died without hearing the gospel"

    gosh, where the hell did that come from

  5. #5
    ^^You must have been divinely inspired!

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonga View Post

    im sure protestant/born again christians would answer like this:
    "its not about the physical life God is saving, its the spirit/soul that God is after...the flood merely killed the body, Christ saves the spirit from eternal damnation. So are the drowned people in the great flood saved? that is another topic, much like a question if a baby died without hearing the gospel"
    and the catholics would answer like this:
    the great flood is a myth borrowed from the epic of gilgamesh

  7. #7
    die boy abunda die! Lucca Yamazaki's Avatar
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    ^^ I'm Catholic and that's what I'll say...

    *then tries to expect the Spanish Inquisition*

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by blue[
    ce]Am I still open for a possibility of returning to a belief in Bible God? well, the straight answer would be no.
    I would have loved to offer a biblical answer to your question, re: God's plan about the flood, but what's the use? You have already closed your mind to returning your belief in God.
    Last edited by jmromano; Feb 27, 2007 at 05:38 PM.

  9. #9
    according to some books by zecharia sitchin, there is no big deal about the flood, the gods are just like more evolved beings/aliens from another planet. homosapiens are a mix of homo erectus and them. when they sensed a flood, some of the aliens just looked the other way, but one of them squeeled and had noah build an ark.

  10. #10

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by jmromano View Post
    I would have loved to offer a biblical answer to your question, re: God's plan about the flood, but what's the use? You have already closed your mind to returning your belief in God.
    I would have love to hear biblical answer. he is not the only person reading this subject.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by blue[]ce View Post
    Does this seem like God has a plan to save his creations? In simpler terms, God says I'll save you after 4000 years but in the meantime, I'll kill everyone off except for Noah and his family. But don't worry, I will send my only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. But until such time, farewell my little humans. It's gonna be rainy days ahead.
    Very Good Question!

    Actually when you think about it, God gave a very specific illustration on how to be saved. There was the Ark! It was big... it was huge! Noah spent a hundred years building the thing! It was so hard to miss. Imagine that, there was this big boat and people didn't mind. They probably asked and Noah told them the reason but they just didn't believe!

    It was so simple, get on the Ark and you are saved but no they don't want it. They would rather have it their way.

    Now fast forward to Jesus' time. There He was speaking and doing miracles like no other before. Teaching things and opening hearts like never before but the problem in the end was they just didn't believe!

    It was so simple and merciful, believe in Christ that He saved you of your sins when He died on the cross but no they don't want it. They would rather have it their way.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by easter View Post
    Very Good Question!

    Actually when you think about it, God gave a very specific illustration on how to be saved. There was the Ark! It was big... it was huge! Noah spent a hundred years building the thing! It was so hard to miss. Imagine that, there was this big boat and people didn't mind. They probably asked and Noah told them the reason but they just didn't believe!

    It was so simple, get on the Ark and you are saved but no they don't want it. They would rather have it their way.

    Now fast forward to Jesus' time. There He was speaking and doing miracles like no other before. Teaching things and opening hearts like never before but the problem in the end was they just didn't believe!

    It was so simple and merciful, believe in Christ that He saved you of your sins when He died on the cross but no they don't want it. They would rather have it their way.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by easter View Post
    Very Good Question!

    Actually when you think about it, God gave a very specific illustration on how to be saved. There was the Ark! It was big... it was huge! Noah spent a hundred years building the thing! It was so hard to miss. Imagine that, there was this big boat and people didn't mind. They probably asked and Noah told them the reason but they just didn't believe!

    It was so simple, get on the Ark and you are saved but no they don't want it. They would rather have it their way.

    Now fast forward to Jesus' time. There He was speaking and doing miracles like no other before. Teaching things and opening hearts like never before but the problem in the end was they just didn't believe!

    It was so simple and merciful, believe in Christ that He saved you of your sins when He died on the cross but no they don't want it. They would rather have it their way.
    Doesn't this say that man could have altered God's plan through their choices? Let's assume everyone believed Noah and they all went into the Ark (further assuming they would all fit there), would there still be flood if its purpose is really what God told Noah -- to drown everyone?

  15. #15
    Yeah, man could have believed and be saved. Could have.

    But it was very clear in God's view already that only 8 people would be saved and He still went ahead with it. God is omniscient right? He already knew.

  16. #16
    let me guess... the boat becomes too heavy and sinks, everybody still drowns, while noah and his family are spared by excess gopher driftwood that God secretly told Noah to build, just in case.. or something.. right?

  17. #17
    Please bear with me for i couldn't really find much time to post every now and then because of my 12 hour work shifts and with very limited day offs.

    Hopefully, the following be a rejoinder to the on going discussion:

    The chosen few as based solely from the bible:

    Ever since, the message had been proven true. Abel and Seth were chosen from among the many sons and daughters of Adam and Eve.

    This voice of our Lord reverberated in the ears of Noah, a preacher of righteousness. He saw the truth in our Lord's word when he was completely ignored by the people. God waited one hundred twenty (l20) years for them to repent as Noah was building the ark, but to no avail.

    Abraham also found this out. His heart bled for the people when he learned that God would obliterate the twin cities of Sodom and Gomorrah for insufficiency of righteous people. He, therefore, pleaded with God:
    GENESIS 18:20-33 "Then the Lord said, `The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will now.

    The men turned away and went toward Sodom , but Abraham remained standing before the Lord. Then Abraham approached him and said, `Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? What if there are fifty (50) righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty (50) righteous people in it? Far be it from you to do such a thing - to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous as the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?'

    The Lord said, `If I find fifty (50) righteous people in the city of Sodom , I will spare the whole place for their sake.'

    Then Abraham spoke up again, `Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, what if the number of the righteous is five (5) less than fifty (50)? Will you destroy the whole city because of the five (5) people? If I find forty five (45),' he said, `I will not destroy it.'

    Once again he spoke to him, `What if only forty (40) are found there? He said, `For the sake of the forty (40), I will not do it.' Then he said, `May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty (30) can be found there? He answered, `I will not do it if I find thirty (30) there.'

    Abraham said, `Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, What if only twenty (20) can be found there?' He said, `For the sake of the twenty (20), I will not destroy it.' Then he said, `May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten (10) can be found there?' He answered `For the sake of the ten (10), I will not destroy it.'

    When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home."

    That is what human nature exactly is. Men tend to overestimate themselves in righteousness. Man's compassion for fellowmen is innate in the heart. But God remains the righteous Judge. Abraham could not even find five (5) righteous people in the twin cities of Sodom and Gomorrah . God chose four (4), but one (1) still could not overcome - the wife of Lot .

    "Many are called, but few are chosen" is like a massive rock monument that can never be shakened from its sturdy foundation, for that is the truth! God called His people from Egypt who were under the yoke of slavery. He delivered them from the iron hand that unrelentingly tried to hold them to the land of desperation. He dried the Red Sea for them to pass. He fed them with Manna and provided water from the rock, in order to sustain them in their forty (40) years journey in the wilderness. God's people who were called numbered six hundred three thousand five hundred fifty (603,550), excluding women and children below twenty (20) years old. But God foresaw that many of these would fall on the way, because of stubbornness:

    DEUTERONOMY 1:34-39 "And the Lord heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying, Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers, save Caleb... he shall see it and to him will I give the land that he hath trodden upon, and to his children, because he hath wholly followed the Lord... and Joshua the son of Nun, which standeth before thee, he shall go in thither... for he shall cause Israel to inherit it. Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had not knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, unto them will I give it and they shall possess it."

    "The little ones"
    They were the "little ones" and only a few of the men from Egypt above twenty (20) years of age who were able to reach the Promised Land. God emphasized here the worthiness of "the little children which had no knowledge between good and evil." Do people realize that Jesus Christ preached about this? Notice how our Lord referred to the Old Testament part of the Holy Bible:

    Matthew 18:1-3 "At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

    Take note of the line "except ye be converted and become as little children." Could this possibly be literal-physical, or spiritual? Then our Lord, again accentuating the same message, said in:

    Matthew 11:25 "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."

    Our Lord addressed His disciples as "little children" in:
    JOHN 13:33 "Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you."

    The apostles, after having received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and had been endowed with divine wisdom, also realized this thing about "little children." Paul wrote to Timothy how he learned the holy Scripture from a child (or learned it from infancy):

    2 TIMOTHY 3:15 "And that from a child thou has known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation..." (KJV)

    John the apostle addressed the Christians on several occasions as "little children" :

    1 JOHN 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate..."

    1 JOHN 2:12 "I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake."

    1 JOHN 2:18 "Little chldren, it is the last time; and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists..."

    1 JOHN 2:28 "And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming."

    The Word of God, through the Bible, is making it clearer that "little children" could not possibly refer to physical children. From the foregoing verses, the following are gathered:

    1. The "little ones" of DEUTERONOMY 1:39 should have grown up into adulthood, and even grew as older people, considering the length of time they stayed in the wilderness: a long period of forty (40) years!

    2. Our Lord in telling His disciples in MATTHEW 18:1-3 that "except ye be converted and become as little children" could not have been literally-physically possible.

    3. In the same manner, revealing great spiritual things to "babes" in preference over "the wise and the prudent" in MATTHEW 11:25, also could not have been literally-physically possible.

    4. Paul told Timothy that, "from a child" he learned the holy Scriptures. The natural man will simply reject this. Learning from a child rather than from the learned adults? "That is sheer foolishness," the natural man will retort (1 CORINTHIANS 2:14 ). In either case, Timothy learning the holy Scripture "from infancy" or learning it "from a child" boggles the mind of the intellectual and the intelligent. But the Bible is slowly introducing the spiritual nature of the word of God. This confirms that God is using the "spiritual language" as our Lord put it in:

    JOHN 6:63 "...the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit..."

  18. #18
    getting two of every living thing on an ocean-going vessel made of wood would be IMPOSSIBLE. the story of the flood is a HOAX.
    Last edited by albert_sy2; Mar 4, 2007 at 07:10 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue[]ce View Post
    Ok, here is my question.

    Bible God supposedly set in place a plan for the salvation of all mankind by sending his Son Jesus to die for our sin. This plan was put into play after the fall of Adam.

    If God had this great salvific plan, why did He choose to drown almost everyone on this earth and left only a family to survive? And then send Jesus 4000 years later.

    Does this seem like God has a plan to save his creations? In simpler terms, God says I'll save you after 4000 years but in the meantime, I'll kill everyone off except for Noah and his family. But don't worry, I will send my only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. But until such time, farewell my little humans. It's gonna be rainy days ahead.
    Isn't it about time you realized it for the stupid poorly contrived fairy tale that it is and stopped trying to look for an explanation?

  20. #20
    @ Frank

    ur spoiling my lil interest

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