10 Dirtiest PBA Player of All Time....

[Jay P. Mercado]

Then, AFAUK, you're wrong. There are stats available on the net. It doesn't take a genius to find these accordingly. But to give you an idea, Locsin averaged 18, 8 and 3 dimes on his rookie year, 17, 10 and 2 in 1995. Those are the official stats for Locsin. Locsin never had these numbers in DLSU, with Nikon and with any other team that he played for in the PBL. Those are facts.

A copout of an argument there in your 2nd paragraph. There's absolutely NO LOGIC with your claim. First, you claimed that these players declined when they played for Jaworski. I said otherwise. And Locsin was a classic case of a player who improved dramatically when Jaworski handled him. He may have become a more physical player, but that was also the reason why he became a more valued player in the PBA. Ginebra wouldn't have gotten someone like Vergel Meneses in a trade with Swift if Locsin didn't have that much value. And by that time, Locsin's game wasn't as impressive as when he was under the Big J. By 1998, with Jaworski busy running for the Senate, Locsin's game went down to 11, 5 and 3 compared to 13, 8 and 3 the previous season while still under Jawo. Again, those are facts.

And your claim that Locsin would have turned out better under a different coach is very flawed. Not only is it speculative and baseless, but facts will point that Locsin's numbers went down under a different coach compared to when he was under the Big J. Again, those are facts.

Let's talk about EJ Feihl then. Feihl averaged 7 and 7 on his rookie year, just about the same numbers that he produced the year after when Marlou Aquino came on board. When he moved to Purefoods in 1997, his average went down to 4 and 4. His best season after his Jawo years were with Tim Cone and Alaska where he averaged 6 and 5. So again, Feihl's best seasons were under the Big J. Those are facts as well. He might not have been happy under the Big J but yet, he still produced his best numbers under him. I won't speculate what happened but the facts will point to Feihl playing his best years for Jaworski.

David couldn't even crack the Sunkist rotation in 1995 when he was drafted as a rookie that season. It's not that Sunkist was deep at the point slot - they had Al Solis, Rudy Distrito and Teroy Albarillo handling the point so David would have been accommodated had he performed enough to sell himself to Derrick Pumaren. He never did. It was Jaworski who gave him the trust and confidence and because of this, earned him a slot in the Mythical Second team on his rookie playing year of 1996. He never got to be part of any Mythical Team from there on under Allan Caidic and Siot Tanquincen, his only other PBA coaches. And while David produced his best numbers in 1999 under Allan Caidic, David was also averaging more than 40 minutes per game. Under Jaworski, he was conserved by being fielded for no more than 30 minutes per game.

Let's go to Pido Jarencio now. True, Jarencio was a hotshot with UST and was even a former member of the NCC team under Ron Jacobs. Was he good? Yes he was. Did he play well under Norman Black, Yeng Guiao, Ely Capacio and Jimmy Mariano? Seldom. He had flashes of brilliance owing to his immense offensive talent but just couldn't make it big. When did he make it big? Under Jaworski in 1992 when he played for Ginebra in a trade for Rudy Distrito. He not only became the team's leading scorer, he was also one of the heroes of Gordon's Gin's championship in 1997.

I've said my piece on Locsin above.

If you're saying it's a total stretch to give credit to the coach for the resurgence of a player, then I share the same logic to you - it's a stretch to just blame the coach for the alleged "inability" of a player to perform beyond expectations because he was more concerned with "being rough." Matter of fact, I think the latter is far worse logically.

I won't disagree if you opine that Jaworski is the "dirtiest" player in the PBA for you. You're obviously still young to even know Jaworski's colleagues back in the 70's who were far worse than him. I will forgive you for this faux pas. And I will respect your opinion of Jaworski being the dirtiest even if you haven't seen all of the PBA players.

But to say that players under Jaworski "declined" during their stint under the Big J, then you obviously would need to give a better argument than your baseless and speculative posts above. Otherwise, it would only reek of hatred, deliberate ignorance or cluelessness on your end to claim as such. Or perhaps, all three...

[roundtablepizza]

You always say it as facts but you never provided any real proof. Where are the stats? Where are the links? It's so easy to claim that these are the stats of who knows what without even providing substantial, official and factual material. You only claim YOUR facts.

Copout? Let me remind you that what I said was "IMHO some of the good players who joined the Jaworski-coached Ginebra had a decline in their game". When and where did I say "when they played for Jaworski"? Get your FACTS STRAIGHT.

As I've said, why would you trade someone like Locsin, who you desperately claim as someone who "grew by leaps and bounds" under Jaworski, for a declining Vergel Meneses? That's totally ILLOGICAL. Locsin was drafted #1 overall, wasn't a rookie bust and a marquee player in the first place. That in itself is an undisputed FACT. It's not surprising that Locsin is able to perform in the PBA.

With regards to EJ Feihl, again, if he indeed benefited from Jaworski's "influence", why didn't he dominate after his stint with the Ginebra franchise? You've always claimed how Jaworski helped his players improve, how come when they transferred to another team, they do not dominate? 7 may be greater than 6 or 5(and these stats still needs to be verified from a reliable material), but a difference of just 1 is already significant as a Jaworski "influence"? Is that how you view Jaworski? Wow. Any player who thinks they can improve with a certain coach, would stay with that coach. Why didn't he sign the extension? Why do some players who played under Jaworski never had a lasting career in the PBA, if indeed they "grew by leaps and bounds"?

How can you explain an elite PG in the UAAP who lead UST to a four-peat that didn't get to play for Sunkist initially? Was it SOLELY because of his skills? His talent? OR could it be something else like coach's or management's decision? Or he doesn't fit the system? Is it already fair to say that he's not good enough just because he was snubbed by Sunkist? It's like saying Chris Webber can't play ball because he was drafted by Orlando but was dealt to Golden State. Chris Paul was even snubbed by his favorite team the Tar Heels. Is that your argument?

With regards to Pido Jarencio, answer the questions I posted previously. Who were his teammates? Who were the scorers in those teams? Who shared minutes with Pido? Who were playing the same position as Pido? You can't even answer them. You even totally ignored the Racela argument.

Of course it's logical, how can you perform if your head is thinking about something else, like trying to play dirty tricks on your opponent? Players need to concentrate on the plays, to concentrate on their game plan, not knocking someone out who's trying to make a shot. What's sooo illogical is for someone to claim that this player is so good SOLELY because of Jaworski, where in fact that same player is already good even before playing with Ginebra. If indeed Jaworski has this "thing" that makes players "good", is it fair to say that Dudut, his son, is a very good player? It would be most LOGICAL since he is his son so it would at least be easier to teach him right?

Again, if indeed Jaworski's "influence" as a coach brought out the best from his players, they should have a lasting career in the PBA right? Moreover, his team should produce championships right? How many again? Only four?

I think you better come up with the ACTUAL FACTS rather than YOUR facts. Answer my questions. Otherwise, you're really just a Jaworski fanboy and I forgive you for that.

[Jay P. Mercado]

That's unfortunate, RTP. If you can't find the stats in the net, then you may need to rely more on just google. Here's a hint: go ask Darkwind. He can help you with the stats.

And yes, those figures are correct. Go ask Darkwind.

Locsin's numbers diminished further in the 1998 season when the Big J wasn't around anymore. He wasn't producing the same as he did when he was under the Big J. Ron Jacobs, then consultant of Ginebra, wanted Vergel Meneses in his team. I won't disagree with you if you say Meneses' career was already on the decline. But so was Locsin's. Meneses' stock value though was higher since he was MVP in 1995 and was only around 30 years when the trade was consummated. Locsin was merely two years younger. If Locsin's statline went down after Jaworski left Ginebra's bench, then it doesn't take a scholar to find out who the coach was when Locsin was at his most effective.

As for EJ Feihl, he never made it big, regardless of who his coach was. Whether it was Altamirano or Cone or Guiao, Feihl just couldn't deliver. But it was with Jaworski when he gave his best numbers. He was never dominant - but he was never dominant with any coach in the first place. The facts though will show that he played his two best seasons under Jaworski. Again, go ask Darkwind to check the numbers. You'll be enlightened.

Perhaps this is merely semantics but may I ask: what's the difference between "good players who joined the Jaworski-coached Ginebra had a decline in their game" with "good players when they played for Jaworski had a decline in their game"?

Perhaps, when you see the stats, you will understand and appreciate it better. Or you'll try to look for another area of argument. Nonetheless, let's just agree to disagree. You argue on the basis of speculation, what could have been's, what would have happened's, and what if's, I presented my case with what actually happened. I don't think we can meet halfway there. Hence, I'll let this pass...

Best!

[SamboyLim9]

Ito pala stats ni Noli Locsin.

http://www.pba-online.net/profile/Noli-Locsin/378/ Parang Al Jefferson yung numbers niya in his first 2 years in the PBA.


Available na kaya sa PBA online yung mga stats nung mga former PBA players.

[renaissance11]

Jawo will always be a dirty player. Lahat naman tayo may mga mata at nakita ito (although ako personally mga mid 80s ko na siya napanood).

Kwento nga ng erpats ko kasi sa Toyota siya nagwowork, parating asa office nila sila Jawo and other players, since dun nagoofice si Silverio. Pinaguusapan mga tirahan at gulangan. So part of the game na talaga niya iyon. Sabi nga sa akin ng isang kwento, bakit di mo tinira iyong import, tinanong si jawo ng isang empleyado, eh ang laki eh, pano kung gantihan ako nun.

So "dirty" will always be there. Isa pang kwento, hard foul ni Jawo si Co, si Atoy pa ang nagsorry. Kaya iyong previous post na ginamit din ni Jawo iyon as a advantage mentally, couldn't agree more.

Pero I believe, na madaming napagaling si Jawo gaya nung mga nabangit sa taas. He is a good motivator. Hindi na niya kailangan ng mga eloquent english para mapagaling ang mga players plus the fact they have their 6th man (fans).

[roundtablepizza]

It's even more unfortunate JPM, that you couldn't even produce the stats that you were bragging as FACTS when asked for your source. Why ask another pexer when you can do that yourself? Do I smell of inaccuracy or untruthfulness?

You admitted that Locsin's numbers have DECLINED when Jaworski wasn't around anymore. That is what I'm saying from the very start so it's very clear that you concede and agree with me that there was a decline. But it also begs the question, how could that be since you always bragged that Noli "grew by leaps and bounds"? He could easily be a star for another team if that were true. But the sad reality is, he didn't "grew by leaps and bounds". He was in fact a journeyman, maybe because teams don't like players prioritizing dirty tricks rather than concentrating on the game plan. I myself have already seen the link provided SamboyLim9 since yesterday, but I was waiting for you to provide your evidence which you decline to do so for the nth time. Now I know why. Not only did you bring in half truths about Locsin's performance, it directly contradicts with your assertion that he "grew by leaps and bounds" during his stint with the Ginebra franchise. Based on that link, you will definitely see a constant decline in Locsin's PPG from 18.50, 17.59, 15.47, 13.08 and in 1998 at 11.42. And this is, as you say, when he "grew by leaps and bounds" under Jaworski?

Now that we've seen the stats, maybe you're the one looking for an escape or another argument. You were the one actually, not only speculating, but inventing things out of thin air. I didn't know that a constant decline in numbers is the effect of a player who "grew by leaps and bounds". Wow.

You're now admitting that EJ Feihl didn't make it big regardless of the coach. Now that is a cop-out. The fact of the matter is besides admitting that Feihl did not dominate at all, you still assert he has stats higher by 1 because of Jaworski, and that is already significant for a player they call the living legend? Wow. Even if he doesn't dominate, if indeed you're making a case that a Jaworski "influence" has helped him, why couldn't he continue to have a 7(which again needs to be verified) playing for other teams, which you admitted having declining stats?

You of all people will ask me the difference between "good players who joined the Jaworski-coached Ginebra had a decline in their game" with "good players when they played for Jaworski had a decline in their game"? It's a shame on your part to not know the difference. That's very fundamental in the english language and it's surprising(or not so) that you don't know. It is better you answer all the questions I raised from the start before soliciting an answer from me, and a very elementary at that. Anybody can see that you're trying to be selective on what you want to answer.

Again, if indeed Jaworski's "influence" as a coach brought out the best from his players, they should have a lasting career in the PBA right? Did they? Moreover, his team should produce championships right? How many again? Only four?

So guys, take note of the phrase "grew by leaps and bounds". It's has a different meaning now, according to JPM.

[darkwind]

Ito pala stats ni Noli Locsin.

http://www.pba-online.net/profile/Noli-Locsin/378/ Parang Al Jefferson yung numbers niya in his first 2 years in the PBA.


Available na kaya sa PBA online yung mga stats nung mga former PBA players.

Look in the All-Time Scoring Leaders. Most of the available profiles have a link there.
http://www.pba-online.net/career/

[popsky]

Ako inabot ko ang panahon ng kasikatan ni Jawo as playing coach mula 1988. Ang masasabi ko lang, lahat ng napuntang players sa kanya ay mas lumakas ang laro.

[mhykael11]

RTP is just saying that the players who played under Jawo did not flourished after their Ginebra stint. I think he is just trying to explain that if these players really grew under him, then why could'nt they be a dominant force or maybe just as good as their Ginebra stint when they transferred to a different team.

I think it's just a little misunderstanding between him and JPM.


ont: Jawo will definitely be remembered as the dirtiest player to ever play in the League by the younger fans.

[mhykael11]

This is my list from when i started watching in the late 80's. So i guess this is not an all time list. But, i'll post it anyway.

1. Jaworski
2. Chito Loyzaga
3. Rudy Distrito
4. Ricky Relosa
5. Yoyoy Villamin
6. Jimwell Torion
7. Mick Pennisi
8. Glenn Capacio
9. Junthy Valenzuela
10.Dante Gonzalgo

Maybe there are some names here that i just mis interpret as dirty or just playing really hard.

[olazabal]

This is my list from when i started watching in the late 80's. So i guess this is not an all time list. But, i'll post it anyway.

1. Jaworski
2. Chito Loyzaga
3. Rudy Distrito
4. Ricky Relosa
5. Yoyoy Villamin
6. Jimwell Torion
7. Mick Pennisi
8. Glenn Capacio
9. Junthy Valenzuela
10.Dante Gonzalgo

Maybe there are some names here that i just mis interpret as dirty or just playing really hard.

I had never seen Yoyoy Villamin to be a dirty player during his PBA stint. He could just be that intense and physical thereby construed to be dirty. Villamin was one of the best defender of all-time in the PBA.

One of the rough player I saw was REYNALDO "JUN TAPAL" RAMOS of Alaska and later by Presto.

[Boying]

onchie dela cruz

[Mapecon]

dapat meron ding Top 10 Trash Talker's / Pikon Players in the PBA.

[mikesoliven]

Mick Pennisi padin #1. Poor Eugene Tejada.

[theMailMan]

Ogie menor?

[anticorruption]

? wala pa sa kalingkingan yan ng DIRTY king. ROBERT "JAWO" JAWORSKI. mga players nya naging madumi dahil sa turo nya. bal david marlou aquino noli locsin. etc.

[theMailMan]

? wala pa sa kalingkingan yan ng DIRTY king. ROBERT "JAWO" JAWORSKI. mga players nya naging madumi dahil sa turo nya. bal david marlou aquino noli locsin. etc.

shots fired!

[renaissance11]

menor?

kuting lang ito, kung ipasok mo ito nung panahon

for me it has to be jawo, even your mother knows that jawo is a dirty player

[MakaveliLives]

While Menor is indeed a dirty player, pagtatawanan lang to ni Jawo at ng mga tauhan niya like Wilmer Ong and Benny Cheng.

[bryangamo]

menor??tatawanan lang 'to ni ponkie alolor..