9-11 Was An Inside Job...

[altair]

...
You do not believe that when the steel reinforcements beams and columns supporting the towers melted due to heat as high as 900 degrees F, the vector sum of all the forces along the axes of the towers ceased to be zero?
...

The melting point of steel varies with the kind of steel.
In this steel:

http://www.uss-posco.com/Products/MS...eel%20posco%22


the melting point is 2750 degrees F

Where did you get your facts? I think that posting links is good.

Page 11 of the link provided by Nightstalker says that the melting point of steel is 2,800 degrees F


You have to be careful with your facts.
A lot of people in this board may seem juvenile but there are also some who could read refereed journals.

The last thing that we need is an american looking down her nose to us Indios as if we are still in the colonial period.

[geohunk]

It is always a theory unless they duplicate the event. Theorists and tsismis makers should built exactly the same WTC building, same construction and materials, then let a 747 hit the building at same floor and we all see the result. Let the mythbusters do it.

That would be great if the mythbusters did it...seriously though, the official version by the US government says that it was fire that weakened the steel and thus caused a pancake collapse that led to the destruction of the towers. Again like I and many others have said there are so many holes to that story. It was referenced in the documentaries that in the past numerous steel structured buildings similar in materiALS used in the WTC have burned in fires more severe than what happened on 911 and yet they did not collapse!! Watch the videos and it will show some of those buildings. Even the Empire State building, back in the 1940's was hit by a wayward B-52 bomber, it crashed at the upper floors resulting in a huge fire that spread across numerous floors and lasted for many hours. Yet the building did not collapse. This is the first time in history where 3 steel framed concrete buildings collapsed due to fire, and one of the buildings, World trade center 7 was not even hit by a plane at all!! Watch the videos, its all there.

[geohunk]

You do not believe that when the steel reinforcements beams and columns supporting the towers melted due to heat as high as 900 degrees F, the vector sum of all the forces along the axes of the towers ceased to be zero?

jeez...I would love to have professor steven jones of BYU or Kevin Ryan formerly of Underwriters Laboratory in here and school you on what you are saying. Your line of thought quickly falls apart when you take into consideration the fact that the melting point of the steel in those towers was much higher than the number you spewed out, or that the fires in the towers did not burn that hot and that long enough to even melt the steel, or the mere fact that the whole building collapsed in free fall speed (9 seconds) with no resistance at all, completely pulverizing the concrete into dust. I suggest you watch those videos. And get your facts straight.

[altair]

It is always a theory unless they duplicate the event. Theorists and tsismis makers should built exactly the same WTC building, same construction and materials, then let a 747 hit the building at same floor and we all see the result. Let the mythbusters do it.

In the link provided by Nightstalker, they actually tried to recreate the conditions in the towers.

Sometimes, when it is impractical to do the large scale actual thing, people resort to scaled down models. That is what is done when trying to figure out the drag of a big supertanker before the supertanker is built.

Go get an education, if that is too late, hang around long enough and we will educate you.

[Christinermr]

Altair, are you trying to say the reinforcents did not melt? that when the buildings collapsed the bended steel was there for everyone to see?

And geohunk, I'm not talking of the magazine. I never said "popular mechanics." I was talking about the science of mechanics.

[geohunk]

Altair, are you trying to say the reinforcents did not melt? that when the buildings collapsed the bended steel were there for everyone to see?

..my God man! (or girl?) Watch the second video that i linked...in it is a complete explanation on what caused those steel girders to bend and get cut..and it definitely was not due to fire. The work of professor steven jones and a couple of other experts are in there that prove a force caused the steel to bend, leave molten steel found weeks later in the basements of the WTC and pulverize the concrete to a fine dust. And no it wasnt due to fire. Watch that video. And its painfully obvious.

[parvus1202]

You cannot duplicate the mass of a miniture to the real size. The air pocket weight is different. They built small scale before they built real size, but not to destroy. Same as miniture cities, for showing. But for tsismis makers, built the exact size and destroy it with 747. How can you duplicate the impact of 747 on minitures. Get education.

[altair]

According to this presentation (link first provided by Nightstalker)

What Caused Not Two But Three World Trade Center Skyscrapers to COMPLETELY Collapse on 9/11/2001?
by Steven E. Jones, Ph.D

The structural steel melted due to highly exothermic chemical reactions (aluminothermic reactions or thermites) and not due to jet fuel combustion.

What is impressive is that they are calling other independent laboratories to corroborate their findings.

Quite plausible but I am not saying that I buy it completely. Further research needs to be done. Look at all angles. Read whatever one can.
I have already gone to the NIST site and the WTC 7 report has indeed not come out yet.

Jeez, I used to have such high regard for the NIST. I used to prowl their website for information.

[Christinermr]

I agree that fire did not cause the steel to melt. Fire cannot penetrate concrete, can it? It was the heat that moved along the steel through conduction that did it. I suppose you know what conduction is.

[altair]

What if it is indeed true?

They are evil sans pareil.

One must take into account that a lot of the neocons in the bush administration are disciples of Leo Strauss.

[leon azcarraga]

Steel reinforced buildings do not collapse and pulverize to dust because of fire

Im no expert but its common belief that...Tensile strenght of metal can of course be affected by heat, fire.

I Haven't seen the fillm on the link...too long to down load.

Metal melt from great heat. (Acetylene cutting, Steel factory, steel molding and forging. Welding principle, panday, samurai maker), and so on. You know this.

On the case of WTC, just imagine hundreds/thousand tons of concrete load clinging to wekeaned steel beams and structures. The "Top heavy" weight (above the fire) perhaps was still intact and may not have pulverized yet, but the great magnitude of gravity force pulverized the concrete below in its path. The Solid force above...pushing down created the collapse ( Maybe.... )

What was the film all about? can someone give some brief words, about it.

[altair]

I agree that fire did not cause the steel to melt. Fire cannot penetrate concrete, can it? It was the heat that moved along the steel through conduction that did it. I suppose you know what conduction is.

Yes, I know what conduction is, I studied Mechanical Engineering.
.

Fire may not penetrate concrete but heat does. What is fire anyway? It is just glowing combustion gases.

If the heat due to combustion could not go as high as 2750 degrees F, how could the jet fuel combustion heat melt the steel? Ever tried boiling water with heat less than 100 degrees celsius (you can do this by a controlled heater) at sea level and normal ambient conditions?

[altair]

...

Metal melt from great heat. (Acetylene cutting, Steel factory, steel molding and forging. Welding principle, panday, samurai maker), and so on. You know this.
...

The heat in an oxyacetylene torch reaches 3000 degrees celsius (5432 degrees F)

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2002/...yCheedie.shtml

[geohunk]

Im no expert but its common belief that...Tensile strenght of metal can of course be affected by heat, fire.

I Haven't seen the fillm on the link...too long to down load.

Metal melt from great heat. (Acetylene cutting, Steel factory, steel molding and forging. Welding principle, panday, samurai maker), and so on. You know this.

On the case of WTC, just imagine hundreds/thousand tons of concrete load clinging to wekeaned steel beams and structures. The "Top heavy" weight (above the fire) perhaps was still intact and may not have pulverized yet, but the great magnitude of gravity force pulverized the concrete below in its path. The Solid force above...pushing down created the collapse ( Maybe.... )

What was the film all about? can someone give some brief words, about it.

Well you should find a way to view those videos, find someone with a broadband connection or something. The second video pretty much will answer your questions regarding on why 3 reinforced steel structures dissolved to dust, not because of fire or heat, because the fires did not even reach the temperatures needed to melt or even weaken steel, but because of charges/explosives set at the primary joints of the building. A controlled demolition. Any one who will view the videos and watch the collapses over and over can agree. Controlle demolition. Thats why the buildings fell the way they fell. And numerous scientific independent studies have been done by respected scientists, that so far have been ignored by the mainstream media, and worse ridiculed by the media and government and calling these honest people nutcases and terrorist sympathizers, for simply questioning the official story of 911!! As to who perpetrated this, your guess is as good as mine, but it sure as hell wasnt because of 19 arab amatuers armed with box cutters! Find a way to watch those videos especially the second one if you want to go technical. Believe me its worth it.

[faux_ph]

Steel reinforced buildings do not collapse and pulverize to dust because of fire and completely collapse in 9 seconds w/o any resistance!!

It's called structural robustness and redundancy. This can be actually simulated in a computer model by doing a mathematical model of the structure and perform a nonlinear time-history analysis taking the inherent nonlinear properties of steel material then apply an external force (equivalent impact load from plane),a dynamic load ( for this case a blast load) and then thermal loads. From the analysis of every time interval/increment the impact,blast & thermal loads, some of the structural members fail which are then to be removed from the equivalent mathematical model with the end stiffness of the elements of that time step to be carried on the next time step, which are then repeated for every discretized time step of the whole duration of the event.

[parvus1202]

Acetylene torches need high pressure air to melt steel. You don't need to melt the steel to forged it, just heat it up to 1000c and that is softer enough to bend it.

[geohunk]

It's called structural robustness and redundancy. This can be actually simulated in a computer model by doing a mathematical model of the structure and perform a nonlinear time-history analysis taking the inherent nonlinear properties of steel material then apply an external force (equivalent impact load from plane),a dynamic load ( for this case a blast load) and then thermal loads. From the analysis of every time interval/increment the impact,blast & thermal loads, some of the structural members fail which are then to be removed from the equivalent mathematical model with the end stiffness of the elements of that time step to be carried on the next time step, which are then repeated for every discretized time step of the whole duration of the event.

Without getting too technical with all this jargon and mumbo jumbo, I think what you are referring to is akin to a pancake collapse of the two towers, which is the official story and parrotted by the mainstream media. Again this theory is being questioned by many scientists in the 911 truth movement, and it even falls apart when you take into consideration all the blatant clues that lead it to being a controlled demolition rather than a pancake collapse. You have the rate and speed of the collapse, a mind boggling 9 to 10 seconds for each tower, with completely no regard for the resistance of the lower floors, you have the complete disappeance of the massive core structure of the towers, composed of 47 massive core steel beams which should have been left standing in the air if indeed this was a pancake collapse of the floors, you have the thermate residue found on the samples studied by professor jones, a clear indicator that explosives were used, you have the molten steel found underneath the rubble in the lower basements that continued to burn weeks after the collapse, another indicator of the use of explosives, you have the numerous eyewitness testimonies from firefighters, policemen and workers of the building who all say there were explosives in the buildings, this and so much more damning evidence that point out a controlled demolition of the towers. Plus the smoking gun of it all, World trade center 7 was the third building to collapse and it was never hit by a plane!! The videos i linked completely show all this evidence and proves that the official story cannot stand up to the science behind it all. Watch the videos.

[altair]

Acetylene torches need high pressure air to melt steel.

You are wrong.

Oxyacetylene torches burn due to pure oxygen and acetylene (or other similar combustible gases such as propylene).

Air is not pure oxygen (elementary, parvus1202).

Keep going, I have patience for those who are willing to learn.

[parvus1202]

Nabasa mo lang yan sa internet tapos sasabihin mo alam mo. At saka di puede maging teacher ang naniniwala sa conspiracy tsismis.

[altair]

I actually studied it.

I studied Mechanical Engineering (graduated within the top 5 of my class at the state u).

And even IF I just googled it (I did not), it is correct. You must believe it for your own good.

And I never said that I bought everything hook, line, and sinker regarding the assertion that 911 is an inside job. Go and read my posts again.

Now, I think that you need to sharpen your reading comprehension.