salvation christian style | Realm of Thought | PinoyExchange

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  1. #1

    salvation christian style

    i've just been wondering...

    how different is the christian concept of salvation and redemption from being held up by a robber with a knife? i mean, in both cases you only have two choices, and if you choose the one that either god or the robber doesn't like, you get shafted.

  2. #2
    What is the difference gakutokamui?

    Love. The robber does not love you but God does!

    God offers the choices out of love because He knows what is good for us. God's intent is the difference.

    Is the robber doing it because it is what is good for the victim? No the robber is doing it because the choice is what is good for the robber.

  3. #3
    ^ so what if its done with "love"? what difference does it make? you still only have two choices, and you get royally screwed if you choose the one that either of those two like.

    also, given the situations, what practical use does free will (assuming free will exists) have? i mean, isn't it such a futile commodity to have seeing as only ONE choice is actually sensible?

  4. #4
    foolish atheist...
    the difference is god's love..
    god loves us, thats all that matters...
    your quesions are irrelevant, because, god loves us you see..

    ...oh wait a min... im going around in circles lol

  5. #5
    ^A wealthy man approaches a squatters area and tells the settlers there that he bought a big land in another place and he will be building houses for them there for free. He only asks the people to notify in advance by signing a document if they intend to accept the offer since he will only build the number of home units based on those who accepted the offer.

    Some accepted the offer immediately. But others were skeptical. Is this guy for real? Why sign his paper of acceptance maybe he is into some scam and this may get us into trouble? Will there be work there? Does he really have that much land and money to give away houses?

    So in short others accepted and some did not.

    When the project was finished those who accepted where whisked away in vans and trucks to be taken to their new homes.

    When those who did not accept visited their former neighbors, they were surprised to see finely built homes, in nice and clean neighborhoods with workplaces nearby and other business opportunities.

    They asked the man if they can still get a chance at the offer. The man said sorry of course, he did not count those who refused to sign when he gave the offer.

  6. #6
    I Love You This Much

    By LaDawn Risenmay

    Four years old—and he taught me one of the most important truths in the whole wide universe.


    I was lounging in a comfortable living room chair reading a magazine when my four-year-old brother walked into the room, his arms overflowing with toys. Normally I would have told him to play in his room because he is too noisy and I would have to clean up after him. But since I knew he wouldn’t want to do that, I decided not to start a fight I probably wouldn’t win.

    He deposited his toys in the middle of the floor and began to play, making appropriate noises for each of his stuffed animals as he picked them up. I laughed, to which he responded with a pouting lower lip.

    “Come here, Blake,” I called to him, putting my magazine down. He climbed into my lap. I gave him a hug and said, “I love you,” unconsciously starting his favorite game.

    “I love you more,” he insisted, returning my hug.

    “No way! I love you more!” I demanded, squeezing him tighter.

    He crawled down from my lap. “I love you this much,” he said, stretching his arms out as far as they would go, grunting from the strain.

    I stretched my arms out and said, “Well, I love you this much,” which was more because my arms are nearly twice the length of his.

    “I love you as much as this whole room.”

    I came back with, “I love you as much as this house.”

    “I love you as much as the whole world.”

    “I love you as much as the whole universe!” I thought I had won because he doesn’t know what the universe is.

    “I love you as much as Jesus,” he said surely.

    I smiled. He had won. I knew I couldn’t beat that. I asked him to give me a kiss, and he did—a nice wet one on my cheek.

    I was not surprised that he had thought of it and I hadn’t. It seems that many of us forget what Sunbeams seem to know so well—that Jesus Christ loves us.


    © 2005 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by easter
    ^A wealthy man approaches a squatters area and tells the settlers there that he bought a big land in another place and he will be building houses for them there for free. He only asks the people to notify in advance by signing a document if they intend to accept the offer since he will only build the number of home units based on those who accepted the offer.

    Some accepted the offer immediately. But others were skeptical. Is this guy for real? Why sign his paper of acceptance maybe he is into some scam and this may get us into trouble? Will there be work there? Does he really have that much land and money to give away houses?

    So in short others accepted and some did not.

    When the project was finished those who accepted where whisked away in vans and trucks to be taken to their new homes.

    When those who did not accept visited their former neighbors, they were surprised to see finely built homes, in nice and clean neighborhoods with workplaces nearby and other business opportunities.

    They asked the man if they can still get a chance at the offer. The man said sorry of course, he did not count those who refused to sign when he gave the offer.

    That's a very nice story easter, but not very accurate, allow me to modify a few parts if you will....

    You'll have to forgive me though, I'm not really much of a writer

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    A man in a white robe approaches a squatters area and tells the settlers there that he knows of a wealthy man who bought a big land in another place and he will be building houses for them there for free. He only asks the people to notify in advance by signing a document if they intend to accept the offer since he will only build the number of home units based on those who accepted the offer.

    Some accepted the offer immediately. But others were skeptical. Is this guy for real? Why sign his paper of acceptance maybe he is into some scam and this may get us into trouble? Will there be work there? Does he really have that much land and money to give away houses?

    "How do we know this is for real? Who is this guy? Can we meet him?", one man asked.

    "Yes it's real, of course you can meet him, but only after you settle in your new homes" replied the visitor

    "Do you have a home there too? What does this man look like?", asked another

    "Well, I have signed already, and I'm just waiting for my new home to be built, I can't tell you what he looks like because I havent met him yet"

    "What? if you've never met him, how do you know he'll give us this land? infact, how do you know he even exists?", asked another man

    The robed man tried to reply, "Well, there's this book you see, and it says in there that whoever accepts his offer will get a house and...."

    The crowd went up in laughter, one woman spoke out, "Mister, you mean you have never seen or even met this guy and you're basing everything on a book you read?"

    "No! ofcourse not!" the man replied, "I've experienced his love you see..."

    "You mean he's given you money?", asked one of the bystanders

    "Well no not really, but..."

    "That car you're driving, he must have given it to you, right?", asked another

    "Ummm, well, not exactly, but..."

    "These clothes you're wearing, surely, its a gift from him...", shouted another

    "Uhhhhh... well, no.... but"

    "How about food? did he give you food? can we have some?", asked a little child

    "No I'm sorry it doesnt work like that..", shouted the robed man, clearly frustrated and starting to turn red, "Look, bottom line is, he loves us and he's going to give all of us new homes, all we have to do is accept it, it's that simple"

    One of the elders confronted him, "Well, forgive me but so far you havent really given me any reason to believe in this guy, all you've provided so far is some bogus promise from a guy you've never met or even seen, so you'll forgive us for being skeptical"

    The man's face became serious, changing the mood of the conversation, "Oh that's not a good idea, you see if you reject his gift you'll be taken from your homes and tortured until you die!"

    The crowd went up in an uproar, everyone was panicking

    "WHAT? WHY? WHAT DID WE DO?", said one man

    "That's horrible, why is this happening?", said another

    "Well you see, its because you've stolen from him, so you need to be punished"

    The man's eyes grew big with shock, "ME??? I haven't done anything, I dont even know the guy!"

    "No no, not just you, everyone here has"

    "What are you talking about?" "Are you nuts?" "How dare you come here and accuse us of...", the crowd started to become hostile

    "Calm down everyone, please, calm down, its ok, you'll all be fine because you see, this man, he is a JUST man, and he loves us..."

    "JUST???", shouted one woman, "you call this just? we havent done anything to deserve what you're saying"

    "Calm down miss, it's ok, because he loves us so much you see, that's why he offered you this gift, all you have to do is accept it and you'll be spared from the torture"

    "Wait a min, I have this Muslim friend, he also said that he knows of a wealthy man who love us, are you two talking about the same guy?", asks an old man

    "NO! NO! NO! We ARE NOT talking about the same guy, infact, I feel I must tell you that your friend is DOOMED! and most surely will be tortured soon enough"

    He couldn't believe what he was hearing, "What? but how? why? what....", he was lost for words, "But his wealthy man is just the same as yours, he said the exact same things as you did"

    The robed man calmly replied, "But you see, this so c alled wealthy man of his is a wealthy Muslim man, mine is the wealthy White man, they're not the same you see, he's wealthy man isn't really wealthy, he's just a fake!"

    "But how do you know this? have you actually seen either of the two?", asks the confused man

    "That's the beauty of it, I don't have to, everything I need to know is written in this little book here", the robed man said while happily showing them a little black book, "And it says that the muslim wealthy man is a fake, infact, every wealthy man is a fake, there is no other wealthy man, only MY wealthy man"

    "But.... but he has a book too, and it says that..."

    "It doesnt matter, his book is also fake, mine is the only real one"

    "But how do you know that?"

    "Because the wealthy man said so in the book"

    "But you're just using your book as proof for itself, you're just going around in circles?"

    The robed man clearly getting frustrated, "Look, I'm not going to argue anymore,if you don't want to believe, then don't, but the bottom line is, he's offering you a better life, it's up to you whether to take it or not"

    The man left with some signatures, but not as much as he had hoped for.

    So in short others accepted and some did not.

    Time passed and no news came, many had moved on to bigger and better things, some found jobs and new homes, others were even able to go abroad. But those who had given their signatures waited and hoped, with each passing day their ranks grew smaller and smaller until but a faithfull few remained, no matter they said, they will wait until their very end, for surely, their new homes should be complete soon.

    And so they waited...

  8. #8
    ...christian style
    is that anything like missionary style?

  9. #9
    "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding." (Prov 9:10)

    If you truly understand the Gospel and the instructions from our Creator on how to live a Christian life, you will fear God; but fear no man.

  10. #10
    hmm... pogi ba talaga? jaypogi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    essex.. longer version ba un

    okay ah!

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Onomatopoet
    ...christian style
    is that anything like missionary style?
    yes, but it's done with LOVE.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by jaypogi
    essex.. longer version ba un

    okay ah!
    no jaypogi, just a more accurate one...

  13. #13
    hello essex. nice to see you again. i hope you can find time to continue our discussion in the christian thread.

    if i may take up the cudgels for jaypogi above:

    all that was required of the people was to sign a document that they "accept the offer of a new house". nothing more, nothing less. no thoughts of whether this offer was real or not, whether this wealthy man existed or not.

    the story ends with: the offer was real. and those who accepted the offer got their houses, those who didn't acept, did not get anything.

    now, let's adopt your version of the story and say that the offer was bogus. what did those who accepted the offer lose? the answer: nothing.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by st.anger
    yes, but it's done with LOVE.
    there is no LOVE in doggie style then?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by green grin
    now, let's adopt your version of the story and say that the offer was bogus. what did those who accepted the offer lose? the answer: nothing.
    is this pascal's wager again?

    i liked the answer of one reader here in another thread.
    he said that he would prefer becoming a muslim since it has a worse hell.
    i'm not sure if that is true though.

    you see christians are quite lenient with people who don't believe their god(i think). i could imagine some religions who believe that if we're not one of them, we go straight to their version of hell. so logically if that wager is correct, the correct answer would be to stick to the religion with the worst hell for non-believers of their religion.

  16. #16
    yes it is pascal's wager, rickym. and i think it's a good argument.

    you are saying that you would rather be a believer of a religion whose belief of hell is worst, right?

    in that case, if you believe in pascal's wager, what is your religion and its belief of hell? following your logic, its hell must be worse than christianity's version of hell.

  17. #17
    critical flaw in pascal's wager is that its not like atheists and agnostics can really help what they think. its not like you can turn off an idea or a realization like a light bulb once its there.

    and it has little to no bearing on the original question since it was obviously asked to christians who actually believe in the concept of salvation out of sincere faith and not out of the convenience of sitting on the fence by virtue of pascal's wager.

    back to the topic, the original house analogy doesn't work because it assumes that the punishment for not believing is something not administered by "the rich man". not only is the whole analogy cheeky, its totally inaccurate. if we go by what christians believe the rich man will not only have had the non-believers excluded from his posh village, he would have rounded each and everyone of them up to be flogged or tortured as well, or some other unsavory fate which he has thought of in advance. i mean, its not like god will leave unbelievers alone to suffer an unknown fate beyond his control, he already has a set (and very painful) punishment already designed for them. remember, christians believe that there are only two options. in the house analogy, there are more than two since the unbelieving squatters can always leave town and go somewhere else beyond the control and influence of your "rich man".

    so again, how different is that from robber who already decided that he's going to shaft you if you don't give him what he wants?
    Last edited by gakutokamui; Sep 8, 2005 at 09:47 AM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by green grin
    yes it is pascal's wager, rickym. and i think it's a good argument.

    you are saying that you would rather be a believer of a religion whose belief of hell is worst, right?

    in that case, if you believe in pascal's wager, what is your religion and its belief of hell? following your logic, its hell must be worse than christianity's version of hell.
    Hello grin green, sorry about not being able to reply in the other thread, I've been kept busy the past few weeks, but not to worry, I enjoy our discussions very much and certainly will continue it when I find the time.

    Regarding pascal's wager, I'm pretty sure I've answered this in our discussion in the other thread grin, the argument has 2 flaws, one being it's assumption that atheists and agnostics have a choice in what they believe in rather than their beliefs being the result of the situation and circumstances they are in as gakutokamui pointed out, and the other flaw being it assuming that there are only 2 choices, atheism/agnostism and christianity, when in fact, there could indeed be a god but not the god of christianity, in which case the christian would be in as much trouble as the atheist.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by green grin
    yes it is pascal's wager, rickym. and i think it's a good argument.
    Pascal's Wager has a fatal flaw: he assumed that the probability for God's existence is 1 out of 2, without any evidence that may lead us to believe so.

    In Pascal's own text: "Reason can decide nothing here. There is an infinite chaos which separated us. A game is being played at the extremity of this infinite distance where heads or tails will turn up..."

    Unlike an ordinary coin that we know to be fair, this metaphorical "coin" is "infinitely far" from us, hence apparently completely unknown to us. (Morris 1986)

    Of course, atheists like myself would simply assign 0 to God's probability of existence. And in that case, Pascal's Wager wouldn't even get off the ground.

  20. #20
    thank you for our replies, gentlemen. i am well aware of the flaws of pascal's wager in arguing for the practicality or logic of believing in the christian god. it was not my intention to forward it as such. rickym said that assuming it was correct (pascal's wager), then it would be best to adhere to the religion that believes in the worst hell. to which i asked him what his religious beliefs were. did his religion believe in a hell that is far worse than christianity's or islam's? and i am still awaiting his answer.

    essex, i am glad you are well. please take your time in replying. i do believe that a well thought-out and deliberate post, albeit long in coming, is much better than a hastily prepared one. and i do understand how one's work can get in the way.

    god bless you, my friend, for your earnest search for truth.

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