[Merged] Arnis Threads

[iostream]

tekawaits... are there any good gyms or schools out there that teach arnis? i mean, outside of a university setting? maybe in the makati or ortigas areas? (or even cubao?) i'm working already; if i were to take up arnis, i dont think going to a university would be too practical for me (and i dont think that would be allowed!)

[ruff]

iostream: sorry, ang alam ko lang na out of school na saan nagtuturo is in Las Piñas (4th flr., RFC). There should be others around. Pero for sure their styles will vary from each other.

pimples: tanung mo naman kay sir rich kung meron outside.. or kahit yung Philippine Confederation(?)ng Arnis. Tapos post mo dito ... that should be helpful. Gracias!

[pimples]

ill try to get in touch with coach then ill post it here hopefully by tuesday

[ruff]

I'm not sure if this is still up-to-date but it should be worth checking out. I got it from my old Arnis ID. They should have more information about Arnis.

Arnis Cruzada Philippines
30 Santalia St. De Castro Homesite
Ortigas Extension Rosario Pasig City
Tel #'s: 6557813, 3720751

Pimples: If you have more info, post them na lang... lalo na mga lugar na may training sa may makati area. Quetal ya man gale di ustedes training para na tournament with la salle?

[Brandon96]

here it is....if u wna learn a really good and street-effective style of arnis, then u have to check out Pekiti Tirsia kali (arnis) from Bacolod, Negros Occidental.

See the following websites at:

www.pekiti-tirsia.net and www.pekiti-tirsia.com and also
www.cecm.sfu.ca/~loki/Kali and www.cecm.sfu.ca/~loki/ATA and
also www.dogbrothers.com for information.

Interested? give me a call or text msg at 0917 817 0373. Or email me at brandon96@edsamail.com.ph

[schadenfreude]

There are a lot of unproven "arnis facts" floating around, i.e. stories about Lapu-Lapu and such. Make sure that you don't get swept by hype.

There are also a number of combat-oriented arnis 'schools' out there, you just have to know where to look. My suggestion is to join <peak-l@yahoogroups.com>. The people on the list, which means Philippine Escrima-Arnis-Kali List, can help you find a teacher.

Tandaan ninyo na ang sukat ng pagiging Arnisador ay hindi sa labanan o pananandata. Ang tunay na sukat ng pagiging Arnisador ay nakikita sa puso at pagkatao. Ang isang sanggano ay maaaring maging magaling sa labanan o pananandata, pero hindi ibig sabihin na siya ay isang Arnisador.

[Brandon96]

I disagree with schadenfreude. Maling-mali siya. An arnisador, even if he is a squatter, a sanggano, is still an arnisador. An arnisador with priestly or saintly values is no arnisador if he can't even do a power slash/strike properly. There are arnisadors and there are would-be arnisadors who can't do basic FMA techniques properly. Ang dami diyang master kuno pero hindi naman.

I suggest you ask around for authentic and truly good competent fighters/masters. i'm sure u'd end up with names like Tony Diego of KALI ILUSTRISIMO, Topher Ricketss of LAMECO ESKRIMA, Leo Gaje of PEKITI-TIRSIA KALI (ARNIS), ANTONIO "TATANG" ILUSTRISIMO of KALI ILUSTRISIMO, Jose D. Caballero of De Campo 1-2-3 Orehinal escrima, etc.

One good source of the best arnisadors is at the Luneta. Go there on a weekend early morning and ask around.

I heard a story once that the reason why Leo Gaje of Pekiti-Tirsia arnis was much disliked by the arnis community in the USA is because he challenged most of them and BEAT THEM ALL. Some would add to that his questionable character, BUT THAT IS BESIDE THE POINT. Magpapaturo ako sa medyo worldly guy na magaling naman, kesa sa preachy arnis master (kuno) who can't even fight well. Sayang pera ko. As Leo Gaje once said, "U WANT TO FIGHT, LEARN PEKITI-TIRSIA. IF U WANT TO PRAY, GO TO CHURCH!"

he couldn't be more correct. The true test of an arnisador is how he fights in the arena or in a challenge fight. Not even in an arnis tournament, dapat sa kalsada, in real time. Arnis is not aikido or karate and those who try to inject moral values into arnis as if it were zen are MISSING THE ENTIRE POINT. Practicality ang arnis, hindi morality lesson.

[schadenfreude]

Originally posted by Brandon96
I disagree with schadenfreude. Maling-mali siya. An arnisador, even if he is a squatter, a sanggano, is still an arnisador. An arnisador with priestly or saintly values is no arnisador if he can't even do a power slash/strike properly. There are arnisadors and there are would-be arnisadors who can't do basic FMA techniques properly. Ang dami diyang master kuno pero hindi naman.

I think you mis-interpreted what I said. If a so-called Arnisador has no values, then he is not an Arnisador, but a plain old thug.

A thug may know arnis, but will always remain a thug unless (s)he has the proper values.

he couldn't be more correct. The true test of an arnisador is how he fights in the arena or in a challenge fight. Not even in an arnis tournament, dapat sa kalsada, in real time. Arnis is not aikido or karate and those who try to inject moral values into arnis as if it were zen are MISSING THE ENTIRE POINT. Practicality ang arnis, hindi morality lesson.

I beg to disagree. Go ask Maestro Leo Gaje if you have to be without values and always pick fights to be an Arnisador. Morals are what separate a true martial artist, Arnisadors included, from common street thugs.

Even the old Grandmasters here would say that the true measure of fighting capability is in a real fight, but it still comes back to a point of character. My teacher fought, and won, in many a twalyahan, but he was a gentle man of few words.

Arnis is for warriors, not thugs.

[Brandon96]

Schadenfreude, it's simple logic, an arnisador w/o values is STILL an arnisador, yun nga lang, ********* and **** siya. He's a thug.AT THE SAME TIME, HE IS AN ARNISADOR. Lest we embark on a philosophy of language discussion here, you must remember not to dichotomize MARTIAL ARTIST vis-a-vis THUG. Remember, the best martial artists are usually the "thuggy" types--the guys who top the UFC are not the scholarly taichi types who are softspoken (altho many of them ACTUALLY ARE shy and softspoken, but they transform when in the octagon or when trying out their skills).

I suggest you read Dr. Ned Nepangue of RAPID Journal. He says that most arnisadors in Cebu usually end up paid THUGS of landed political families such as the Duranos, referring to GM Vicente "Inting" Carin (if I'm correct). The usual or typical arnisador in Cebu is a drunkard, a laborer who swaggers about and is proud of his skills. There are of course, arnisadors who are quiet and refined in their behavior. Grandmaster Leo Gaje is softspoken in person but when he meets with other arnis masters he is all fire and brimstone, especially against Modern Arnis and other watered-down arnis practitioners.

Arnis is value-neutral. It is amoral. It's not aikido or karatedo where you have to have zen type values. No, siree. Actually, before the "do" ways became the vogue in Jap martial arts in the 19th century, "jutsu" was the focus, and it meant skill in techniques--regardless of the practitioner's values.

And yes, Schadenfreude, Tuhon Gaje does sometimes pick fights but only with the right people--in the sense that he challenges people to test their claims to being good. he says there are lots of arnisadors who claim to be masters but HAVE NEVER BEEN IN A FIGHT OUTSIDE OF A NARAPHIL OR WEKAF FORMAT TOURNAMENT.
Siguro master mo ganon din if he were a serious and traditional arnisador he'd know Leo Gaje, and if he doesn't like the guy, then at least, he will agree with him as to his views re the filipino martial arts.

Historically speaking, arnis is for everyone--both thugs and noble people. Remember that Doce Pares guro Dong Cuesta WAS a veritable thug when he took up on GM Cacoy Canete's invitation for him to learn Doce Pares (he was a member of a Pasil, Cebu gang at the time). Pareng schad, bonus na lang ang good character pero HINDI SIYA NECESSARY SA DEFINITION OF AN ARNISADOR. In fact, the unity of values and of arnis skills should be deemphasized since the reality of combat knows no values....and besides, it's soooo Japanese (unPinoy).

Ano ba style mo? Not that I'd challenge you outright (baka sabihin mo thug ako :P ) pero curious lang ako tungkol sa masters na nag-iinsist sa good character as a requisite. Of course, an arnis master in his right mind WON'T TAKE IN a troublemaker, unless they were more or less familiar or of similiar mien. Kanya-kanyang diskarte na yon

Leo Gaje once said: IF YOU WANT TO LEARN HOW TO FIGHT, COME TO ARNIS. IF YOU WANT TO BE A SAINT, GO TO CHURCH!

[schadenfreude]

Originally posted by Brandon96
Schadenfreude, it's simple logic, an arnisador w/o values is STILL an arnisador, yun nga lang, ********* and **** siya. He's a thug.AT THE SAME TIME, HE IS AN ARNISADOR. Lest we embark on a philosophy of language discussion here, you must remember not to dichotomize MARTIAL ARTIST vis-a-vis THUG. Remember, the best martial artists are usually the "thuggy" types--the guys who top the UFC are not the scholarly taichi types who are softspoken (altho many of them ACTUALLY ARE shy and softspoken, but they transform when in the octagon or when trying out their skills).

Thus my original quote. Application of the appelation "Arnisador" should include a measure of character. A thug is a thug is a thug no matter what martial art (s)he practices.

I suggest you read Dr. Ned Nepangue of RAPID Journal. He says that most arnisadors in Cebu usually end up paid THUGS of landed political families such as the Duranos, referring to GM Vicente "Inting" Carin (if I'm correct). The usual or typical arnisador in Cebu is a drunkard, a laborer who swaggers about and is proud of his skills. There are of course, arnisadors who are quiet and refined in their behavior. Grandmaster Leo Gaje is softspoken in person but when he meets with other arnis masters he is all fire and brimstone, especially against Modern Arnis and other watered-down arnis practitioners.

Read it. Pride in one's skills is different from being a thug. People will be people and if they sell out then mores the pity.

Arnis is value-neutral. It is amoral. It's not aikido or karatedo where you have to have zen type values. No, siree. Actually, before the "do" ways became the vogue in Jap martial arts in the 19th century, "jutsu" was the focus, and it meant skill in techniques--regardless of the practitioner's values.

Value neutral? Are you sure? Okay, let's test that theory.

1. Do you pay respect to your Maestro?
2. Do you pay respect to your teachers?
3. Do you pay respect to your opponent/sparring partner?

If your answer to any of these is yes, then there goes your theory right there.

And yes, Schadenfreude, Tuhon Gaje does sometimes pick fights but only with the right people--in the sense that he challenges people to test their claims to being good. he says there are lots of arnisadors who claim to be masters but HAVE NEVER BEEN IN A FIGHT OUTSIDE OF A NARAPHIL OR WEKAF FORMAT TOURNAMENT.
Siguro master mo ganon din if he were a serious and traditional arnisador he'd know Leo Gaje, and if he doesn't like the guy, then at least, he will agree with him as to his views re the filipino martial arts.

In short, he fights not because he wants to fight, but because there is something to fight for. Do you call that valueless? Do you think he'll beat up anyone just because (s)he irked him?

Yes, my Guro has fought in real combat and our Maestro more so. I would not guess as to their views as it is their own.

Historically speaking, arnis is for everyone--both thugs and noble people. Remember that Doce Pares guro Dong Cuesta WAS a veritable thug when he took up on GM Cacoy Canete's invitation for him to learn Doce Pares (he was a member of a Pasil, Cebu gang at the time). Pareng schad, bonus na lang ang good character pero HINDI SIYA NECESSARY SA DEFINITION OF AN ARNISADOR. In fact, the unity of values and of arnis skills should be deemphasized since the reality of combat knows no values....and besides, it's soooo Japanese (unPinoy).

Historicaly speaking, yes. But would you live totally in the past? Would you keep it that way? The Arnis practitioners I know would accept an unruly student, but would berate them if they picked a fight unnecessarily. They would also boot them out if they are insulting. How else would you improve as a martial art if your practitioners are looked on as bullies?

UnPinoy? Did you even use "Opo" or "Po" in your entire life? Moral character is universal and VERY PINOY. Don't even say that politeness and proper conduct is not part of Filipino culture. It has been that way since before Westeners came. Let's see you try speaking in a brusque manner to ANY of your teachers or to your Maestro. What do you think you'll get?

And speaking of Guro Dong Cuesta, do you see him going about his old thug ways?

Ano ba style mo? Not that I'd challenge you outright (baka sabihin mo thug ako :P ) pero curious lang ako tungkol sa masters na nag-iinsist sa good character as a requisite. Of course, an arnis master in his right mind WON'T TAKE IN a troublemaker, unless they were more or less familiar or of similiar mien. Kanya-kanyang diskarte na yon

Lightning. Our Grand Master is Mang Ben Lema. The Master whom I trained under was Guro Elmer Ybañez. They don't insist on moral character as a requisite, but if you want to learn under them then you'd better learn it quick.

[Brandon96]

A thug is a thug is a thug....yes, but there ARE arnisador thugs. We seem to be arguing about semantics here na, dude. I do believe students should be screened for practical purposes but to impose on one's students the nonsense that arnis/kali develops character (the way aikido, karatedo, etc. develop moral character and personality) is to mislead them. Tatang Ilustrisimo once said that there are no real morals in the FMA (filipino martial arts), but that "if you do have to kill someone, then let that person be one of those who are a menace to the community."

Moral uprightness is relative. To some, the guffawing, grunting, loud arnisador is an anomaly but in fact, that is the norm in a lot of places. I know arnisadors who if they were in our shoes (arguing over semantics) would have slugged it out shortly.

Application of the word arnisador ideally must BUT does not NEED TO contain the measure of character. And pride in one's skills often leads one to be a thug (remember the character in Karate Kid from his nemesis Cobra Kai? Now that's a thug--all simply because he took too much pride in his skills).

Arnisadors do not have to respect their master to learn arnis. They just respect them because they owe them so much (perhaps at some points, even their lives). But how many arnisadors we know hve betrayed their masters? I do respect my masters but I DO NOT NECESSARILY HAVE TO. Besides, respect for one's teacher is not the wholesale equivalent of good character. A thief can respect his big boss, but he is still a thief. A mafia thug respects his don, but he is still a gangster. An arnisador who happens to be a thug can also and usually does respect his master, but he is still a thug (AND AN ARNISADOR).

What I'm saying here is, don't mislead your students with crap like NATIONALISM, LOVE FOR NEIGHBOR, etc....they learn that in church, in fellowships, in Bible study, etc., or in heart-to-heart talks, but not in arnis. If you will teach them correct values, you do it by example and "pangaral" not thru some tacky karate creed like "mizu no kokoro" or Hwarangdo's "Hwarangdokyohun" because Pinoys are practical--not Confucian. Our wisdom is folk wisdom, it's the streetsmart practical experience of Mang Estong and Mang Nene, not the "Confucius say" kind we get in northeast asian arts.

And for ur information, Grand Tuhon Gaje has also been known to beat up people who irked him. Same with Grandmaster Antonio Ilustrisimo and especially Masters Tony Diego and Topher Ricketts.Now, prove ur point--are these men paragons of character? No siree. They may be decent ENOUGH but they aren't saintly like Gichin Funakoshi or O-Sensei Ueshiba.

Politeness does not translate into character. And u missed the point regarding Dong Cuesta--by ur standards, Cacoy Canete shouldn't have taken him in.

Morals are universal, but the emphasis on character which the northeast asian martial arts have (using creeds, meditation, etc.) is NOT PRESENT IN the FMA. What traditional, authentic FMA like Leskas and Pekiti-Tirsia teach are pure and simple techniques. Di ba pare, we don't even have to line up and bow before our teachers (unless trip lang nila, pero obyus namang di talaga kailangan di ba? Add-on na lang siguro pero we remember that it's not necessary to arnis di ba?). We don't have to sit down and meditate ourselves into satori and close our eyes and recite "God country family etc..." We just fight and the teacher says "Do this...no don't do that....now follow me as i do this...." and THAT'S ALL THERE IS TO FMA! NO CRAP, NO BULL, NO ESOTERIC STUFF the way Karatedo is defined--"the true karateka is the one who develops his character." I studied karate before so I know whereof I speak. Obviously u dont. I believe you haven't even passed the LAE (which I did). And obviously dude, you'd fare poorly on the first day of law school recitation because you reside in the realm of platitudes.

As for learning under Mang Ben and Mang Elmer, di na lang. I know for sure I'll be vindicated and nakakahiya na lang sa kanila ang susunod na mangyayari

[Brandon96]

BTW, schadenfreude, Grand Tuhon Leo T. Gaje (by most accounts) IS DEFINITELY a thug. Some would say that he's crude--in that he picks fights with arnisadors for no real reason. I heard that the real reason why Dan Inosanto split up with Richard Bustillo (of Doce Pares) and dissolved the Filipino Kali Academy in Torrance, CA is because of Tuhon Gaje. One time Grand Tuhon Gaje and Bustillo met face to face at the FKA, with Dan Inosanto present. They both pulled knives and yelled at each other "O ano ka? Ano laban ka?" and Guro Dan Inosanto had to step in.

Of course, Bustillo wasn't pleased with Dan Inosanto's getting certified and training IN THE LONG TERM with Pekiti-Tirsia kali so he left. Hence the Inosanto Academy of Martial Arts (IAMA) was born in LA.

Grand Tuhon Gaje to most people is a thug because he likes to "hamon" other arnisadors to live stick fights w/o armor or any protection whatever. Ordinarily they would just ignore him but then he wouldn't let them....he'd pick on them and fight them....with predictable results. The other arnis masters INEVITABLY lost. Gaje is that good at arnis (kali)! You may question his civil status as a married man or his predilection for dog and pitbull fights, or his propensity to challenge other arnisadors if he deems their style watered down, but man, there's one fine arnisador who can prove his mettle anytime, anywhere....

[xyzseaman]

in my ship, I found out that alot of my shipmates (mostly Americans) learned the art when they were stationed in Subic. Some USN SEALs practice the art too.

[Brandon96]

Here's a picture of my instructor's batchmate from Vancouver, Canada who trained with them many times in Bacolod and Subic, as well as along the Manila bay beachfront....



Looks like really great close-in fighting, right? You can also imagine how it would look like using empty hands (use ur pure imagination).....

Email me guys if u want more pics

[schadenfreude]

Get it? What's to get? You posted stuff that is not universal truth. It was bound to happen that someone would disagree. And I beg to disagree.

Originally posted by Brandon96
Tatang Ilustrisimo once said that there are no real morals in the FMA (filipino martial arts), but that "if you do have to kill someone, then let that person be one of those who are a menace to the community."

And you call that valueless? Value-neutral?

Application of the word arnisador ideally must BUT does not NEED TO contain the measure of character. And pride in one's skills often leads one to be a thug (remember the character in Karate Kid from his nemesis Cobra Kai? Now that's a thug--all simply because he took too much pride in his skills).

Application of the word Arnisador should be an ideal. As I said, would you stay forever in the past? Would you have our Art die down as it is doing now instead of moving forward?

And for someone speaking of being realistic you sure refer to movies a lot.

Arnisadors do not have to respect their master to learn arnis. They just respect them because they owe them so much (perhaps at some points, even their lives). But how many arnisadors we know hve betrayed their masters? I do respect my masters but I DO NOT NECESSARILY HAVE TO.

Now that's funny. You want to tell them that? I for one respect my teachers. It is the least I can give back. Besides, they are my elders.

Besides, respect for one's teacher is not the wholesale equivalent of good character. A thief can respect his big boss, but he is still a thief. A mafia thug respects his don, but he is still a gangster. An arnisador who happens to be a thug can also and usually does respect his master, but he is still a thug (AND AN ARNISADOR).

Did I say that respect is the wholesale equivalent of good character?

What I'm saying here is, don't mislead your students with crap like NATIONALISM, LOVE FOR NEIGHBOR, etc....they learn that in church, in fellowships, in Bible study, etc., or in heart-to-heart talks, but not in arnis. If you will teach them correct values, you do it by example and "pangaral" not thru some tacky karate creed like "mizu no kokoro" or Hwarangdo's "Hwarangdokyohun" because Pinoys are practical--not Confucian. Our wisdom is folk wisdom, it's the streetsmart practical experience of Mang Estong and Mang Nene, not the "Confucius say" kind we get in northeast asian arts.

And yet you still insist that Arnis is value-neutral?

And for ur information, Grand Tuhon Gaje has also been known to beat up people who irked him. Same with Grandmaster Antonio Ilustrisimo and especially Masters Tony Diego and Topher Ricketts.Now, prove ur point--are these men paragons of character? No siree. They may be decent ENOUGH but they aren't saintly like Gichin Funakoshi or O-Sensei Ueshiba.

Did I say you have to be saintly? I said it boils down to a question of character

Politeness does not translate into character. And u missed the point regarding Dong Cuesta--by ur standards, Cacoy Canete shouldn't have taken him in.

Really? Read again.

Morals are universal, but the emphasis on character which the northeast asian martial arts have (using creeds, meditation, etc.) is NOT PRESENT IN the FMA. What traditional, authentic FMA like Leskas and Pekiti-Tirsia teach are pure and simple techniques.

Did I say they were creeds? There are no creeds in Arnis. You said so yourself a few sentences back. Pangaral and by example. That denotes character. Very Filipino don't you think?

Di ba pare, we don't even have to line up and bow before our teachers (unless trip lang nila, pero obyus namang di talaga kailangan di ba? Add-on na lang siguro pero we remember that it's not necessary to arnis di ba?).

Bow? No. Pay respect? Yes.

We don't have to sit down and meditate ourselves into satori and close our eyes and recite "God country family etc..." We just fight and the teacher says "Do this...no don't do that....now follow me as i do this...." and THAT'S ALL THERE IS TO FMA! NO CRAP, NO BULL, NO ESOTERIC STUFF the way Karatedo is defined--"the true karateka is the one who develops his character." I studied karate before so I know whereof I speak. Obviously u dont. I believe you haven't even passed the LAE (which I did). And obviously dude, you'd fare poorly on the first day of law school recitation because you reside in the realm of platitudes.

Do not resort to insult-throwing please. It is such an indication of low moral fiber. I can throw back some, but I prefer keeping things civil especially as we are in a public forum. It does not help our Art any. And what did the LAE ever have to do with Arnis?

When did I ever contradict you on the practical aspects of Arnis? I beg to differ on your point of calling just anyone who has been studying Arnis an Arnisador. If that's the case then we can call anyone who takes up PE (including those learning Modern Arnis) in Arnis an Arnisador.

I did study Karate, not Karate-Do, Shotokan Karate. Brown belt. Also Judo and Aikido.

As for learning under Mang Ben and Mang Elmer, di na lang. I know for sure I'll be vindicated and nakakahiya na lang sa kanila ang susunod na mangyayari

Again the veiled insult. Really unbecoming.

[schadenfreude]

Originally posted by Brandon96
BTW, schadenfreude, Grand Tuhon Leo T. Gaje (by most accounts) IS DEFINITELY a thug. Some would say that he's crude--in that he picks fights with arnisadors for no real reason. I heard that the real reason why Dan Inosanto split up with Richard Bustillo (of Doce Pares) and dissolved the Filipino Kali Academy in Torrance, CA is because of Tuhon Gaje. One time Grand Tuhon Gaje and Bustillo met face to face at the FKA, with Dan Inosanto present. They both pulled knives and yelled at each other "O ano ka? Ano laban ka?" and Guro Dan Inosanto had to step in.

Your point being?

Grand Tuhon Gaje to most people is a thug because he likes to "hamon" other arnisadors to live stick fights w/o armor or any protection whatever. Ordinarily they would just ignore him but then he wouldn't let them....he'd pick on them and fight them....with predictable results. The other arnis masters INEVITABLY lost. Gaje is that good at arnis (kali)! You may question his civil status as a married man or his predilection for dog and pitbull fights, or his propensity to challenge other arnisadors if he deems their style watered down, but man, there's one fine arnisador who can prove his mettle anytime, anywhere....

And did I ever say anything to say he wasn't good? Did I ever question anything about Grand Tuhon Gaje? I don't believe I did.

The focus of our discussion was the relevance of values, especially Filipino values, in relation to Arnis and the application of the appelation Arnisador. Do you mean by him winning all the time it vindicates your point? If in the off-chance we fight and you win, does that make your point any valid?

Fighting should not the end-all and be-all of Arnis. And a wrong cannot be righted by another wrong.

[Pye]

Sa totoo lang, nagkakagulo gulo na ang discussion between both Brandon96 and Schadenfreude. Pero mas agree ako kay Brandon kasi from my own limited experience in Dumaguete, totoo nga naman na ang mga marurunong ng arnis ay mga "uncouth" and usually mga tipong swaggering-drunkard-machismo types na maaasta't mayayabang. Marami ding mababait, and I know that ganoon naman dapat talaga sila, pero it just proves the premise of Brandon96 that you don't need values to be an arnisador.

I for one, know that GM Cacoy Canete cheats in his challenge matches. Like for example his latest fight--supposedly--with Crispulo Atillo of Balintawak. Now Canete is definitely an arnis master and practitioner and yet he is lacking in character. He wore padding under his clothing para maging draw at the least ang labanan nila ni Atillo. At alam nyo ba ano'ng pinagmulan ng away nila? Spelling lang ng "eskrima" at "escrima". Iyun ba ang ideal arnisador ni Schadenfreude? Hindi ba arnisadors din ang dalawang yun, sina Atillo at Canete?

Agree ako kay Brandon96 na it's a matter of fact that arnis doesn't teach its students morality. Kung meron man, accident na lang yun at hindi esensyal para maging arnisador ang nag-aaral o gumagawa ng arnis. Usually naman eh imported/copied from the Japanese and Chinese ang mga ganoong emphasis eh. And Schadenfreude's point about "not going back to the past and moving forward" well, commendable, pero it misses the point because the fact is, arnis doesn't seek to promote values. May kilala akong arnisador sa Tanjay, Negros Oriental who taught his bully grandsons--and they became champions in local tournaments--pero bully pa rin sila I fought with them and lost pero why did their lolo teach them? Because simply they were his grandchildren and they shared their lolo's desire for combat (call it Brandon's coined word "fightlust").

Simple logic lang naman eh. Iwasan na ni Schadenfreude sana ang sophistry niyang paikot-ikot. An arnisador who is a thug is still an arnisador. Ang PE classes naman eh medyo arnis na rin yun....hindi naman gaya ng pregnancy ang pagiging arnisador eh. It's not like "you are pregnant" or "you're not pregnant"--that is, "you're an arnisador" or "you're not an arnisador". Taga UP ba si Schadenfreude at nag-aral ba siya ng simple logic?

[schadenfreude]

Originally posted by Pye
Sa totoo lang, nagkakagulo gulo na ang discussion between both Brandon96 and Schadenfreude. Pero mas agree ako kay Brandon kasi from my own limited experience in Dumaguete, totoo nga naman na ang mga marurunong ng arnis ay mga "uncouth" and usually mga tipong swaggering-drunkard-machismo types na maaasta't mayayabang. Marami ding mababait, and I know that ganoon naman dapat talaga sila, pero it just proves the premise of Brandon96 that you don't need values to be an arnisador.

To each his own Pye.

Allowing Arnis to stay that way is detrimental to the Art. If the image of an Arnisador raemains as an uncouth individual, then sooner or later the Art will just be practiced by such individuals.

Iyun ba ang ideal arnisador ni Schadenfreude? Hindi ba arnisadors din ang dalawang yun, sina Atillo at Canete?

It isn't.

Agree ako kay Brandon96 na it's a matter of fact that arnis doesn't teach its students morality. Kung meron man, accident na lang yun at hindi esensyal para maging arnisador ang nag-aaral o gumagawa ng arnis. Usually naman eh imported/copied from the Japanese and Chinese ang mga ganoong emphasis eh. And Schadenfreude's point about "not going back to the past and moving forward" well, commendable, pero it misses the point because the fact is, arnis doesn't seek to promote values.

And my point is, you don't think it should? That a Filipino martial art should not teach Filipino values? Why not?

Simple logic lang naman eh. Iwasan na ni Schadenfreude sana ang sophistry niyang paikot-ikot. An arnisador who is a thug is still an arnisador. Ang PE classes naman eh medyo arnis na rin yun....hindi naman gaya ng pregnancy ang pagiging arnisador eh. It's not like "you are pregnant" or "you're not pregnant"--that is, "you're an arnisador" or "you're not an arnisador".

My stand on the matter is that the appelation of Arnisador should not be applied just to anyone. It was this voicing of opinion that Brandon96 disagreed with.

I for one am agreeing to disagree. It is the way of the world.

Taga UP ba si Schadenfreude at nag-aral ba siya ng simple logic?

What has being in UP have to do with the focus of discussion? Does hoping for a brighter future for Arnis neccessitate learning simple logic from UP? Please, let's not take it to that personal a level.

[Brandon96]

It isn't.

Q: But you agree with me that Atillo and Canete ARE arnisadors?

A: Yes, they are, but they're not ideal.

JUDGE: Just answer the frigging question, Schadenfreude. Yes or No?

A: Uh....YES.

Q: I have NOTHING FURTHER, UR HONOR

And my point is, you don't think it should? That a Filipino martial art should not teach Filipino values? Why not?

My answer: FMA may or may not teach values. It doesn't have to because Filipino values are taught elsewhere by other institutions or social groupings (family, church, neighbors, teachers, mores, traditions held in general acceptance). The arnis teacher may teach it but he DOES NOT HAVE TO. That's a fact....that's why you have arnisadors who end up selling their services to their local warlords. Again, don't mistake the IDEAL for the REAL. Yun ang mistake ng karate and other Jap martial arts when they took on the "do" aspect in lieu of the "jutsu" aspect of their culture---doon na nagsimulang maging sports ang mga Jap martial arts like karate, etc...

Allowing Arnis to stay that way is detrimental to the Art. If the image of an Arnisador raemains as an uncouth individual, then sooner or later the Art will just be practiced by such individuals.

I don't think allowing arnis to remain open and accessible to would-be thugs and actual thugs would be bad for the FMA. What I dread, dear friends, is for FMA in general to go the way of KARATE(DO) AND KEN(DO) AND the watered-down and commercialized northeast asian martial arts. Just remember the scenario: arnis "expert" (kuno) of 10 years slugged and defeated by a streetkid from R. Hidalgo St., Quiapo because our arnisador hero was too much of a "goody-goody" instead of practicing his strikes with power and speed and FORGETTING OR AT LEAST LEAVING "VALUES VALUES" ek-ek TO THE SIDELINES and letting his own innate maturity and other social institutions handle his values formation.

Now, that, dear friends, is the ultimate decline of arnis. And it's now beginning---imagine, padded sticks na nga, may armor and hedgear pa? Duh, hello? Are we into child's play here?

[Brandon96]

The demise of arnis is when:

1) People like Schadenfreude become the norm and forget to give up piddling over semantics in their quest for a more "idealized" FMA.

2) Grownups take up arnis in airconditioned mall dojos or clubs wearing padded armor, headgear, and doubly padded (or even simple, one layered padded sticks) and believe that by using a point system, they are actually learning how to win in a stick fight.

3) We start importing Japanese/Korean/Chinese moves artificially (not naturally as a result of years and years of evolution) into the FMA and forget native concepts like "gunting", "pami-ang", etc.

Here's a picture of safe (enough) and yet realistic sparring with arnis sticks: