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  1. #1

    Post ISLAM, relihiyon ng Kapayapaan?

    Pagkatapos ng mga pangyayari sa 9/11 sa New York, masasabi mo ba na ang Islam ay ang rurok ng lahat ng mga umiiral na relihiyon at ang kaganapan ng lahat ng mga sinabi ng mga sinaunang mga propeta at siya ring kaisa-isang relihiyon ng kapayapaan (ayon sa kanila)?

  2. #2
    duh. Is that so? FYI, any religiion, cult, GROUP of people can wreck havoc in any place if they want to, so don't single out Islam cause there's always bad apples in every basket.

    Hindi mo ba natutunan yan sa classroom?

    think & don't blame Islam for that event.

  3. #3
    no, buddhism is the religion of peace.

    anyway, i think it's unfair for other muslims who don't share the same beliefs as those who was involved in the 7/11...este, 9/11. you have to remember, not all muslims use violence to please their god. and not all of them capture foreign visitors for ransom. ...it's just some stereotypes that most people believe. just like not all catholic priest molest little boys. not all chinese are rich... not all filipinos hate blacks...(just the stupid narrow minded ones.)..not all asians dress up like thugs (just the stupid confused ones) or not all april boy fan are jologs. ....or are they?


    ..we'll never know.

  4. #4
    Hi clawed, I am afraid you failed to understand the basics in my questions? I have read my question again and again, trying to search if there is anything that says I am pointing an accusing finger to these group of people.

    No, I am not! But you might want to read the Qu'ran for your own eyes to see what does it says about violence.

    I think, let's put aside sympathy over knowledge and truth.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by dikya
    no, buddhism is the religion of peace.

    anyway, i think it's unfair for other muslims who don't share the same beliefs as those who was involved in the 7/11...este, 9/11. you have to remember, not all muslims use violence to please their god. and not all of them capture foreign visitors for ransom. ...it's just some stereotypes that most people believe. just like not all catholic priest molest little boys. not all chinese are rich... not all filipinos hate blacks...(just the stupid narrow minded ones.)..not all asians dress up like thugs (just the stupid confused ones) or not all april boy fan are jologs. ....or are they?


    ..we'll never know.
    Hi dikya, I think, anything that is against the basics in human co-existence is being shun in the Bible and Christ never permitted anyone except to love... even your own enemies. The heart of the Bible is LOVE in the agape way.

    As I know, the Qu'ran has more verses in the Qu'ran that are too violent in the Christian perspective. What prompted muslims to wage war to the kufr (non-believers) was because of the 64 verses which says so. Just to site few:

    (Sura2.190) ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...(Sura 2.191) And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

    Remember, converting the kufrs to Islam is considered a cause of Allah and what prompted muslims to raise arms is exactly viewed in this.

  6. #6
    Ei, btw, God doesn't hate the sinners but the sin.

    And I love the Muslims, not what they do.

  7. #7
    [QUOTE=dikya...just like not all catholic priest molest little boys...[/QUOTE]

    dikya, malayong paghahambing ito... and these abusive catholic priests are never been permitted in catholicsm... remember, out of 12 apostles, there is 1 Judas...

  8. #8
    Switched to Pronghorn
    Join Date
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    Hi dikya, I think, anything that is against the basics in human co-existence is being shun in the Bible and Christ never permitted anyone except to love... even your own enemies. The heart of the Bible is LOVE in the agape way.

    As I know, the Qu'ran has more verses in the Qu'ran that are too violent in the Christian perspective. What prompted muslims to wage war to the kufr (non-believers) was because of the 64 verses which says so. Just to site few:

    (Sura2.190) ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...(Sura 2.191) And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

    Remember, converting the kufrs to Islam is considered a cause of Allah and what prompted muslims to raise arms is exactly viewed in this.
    I think a passage from the Bible also said something like that. Y'know the "Kill the Canaanites" thing.

    No one is excempt in the "bad egg theory".

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf86
    I think a passage from the Bible also said something like that. Y'know the "Kill the Canaanites" thing.

    No one is excempt in the "bad egg theory".
    Grandalf, we are not bounded with the Old Testament... I belong to the new Testament of Christ.

    You might want to consider this verse...

    Sura 9:29 "Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given [i.e., Jews and Christians] as believe neither in Allah nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what Allah and His Apostle have forbidden, and do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued."

  10. #10
    Remember, Muslims accept the Qur'an as the direct words of Allah. Many passages preach violence against non-believers. As long as the Qur'an is held to be words dictated by God Himself, some Muslims will be motivated to carry out the urgings of Allah to commit violence against unbelievers, including Christians and Jews.

  11. #11
    Ethereal Being
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    not_in_the_Phil
    Muslims have a unique and sophisticated opinion on the idea of 'peace'.

    for example. If muslims are the minority Islam allows peace if muslims are granted equal rights and opportunities by the non-muslim majority.

    If muslims are the majority Islam only allows peace if the nation is ruled by Islamic ideals and minority religions pay protection money ('Jizya tax') in return for limited tolerance, not necessarily equal rights.

    also islam only allows peace so long as muslims remain muslims. if a muslim abandons islam he is threatened with death or expulsion/rejection by every muslim including families and friends.

  12. #12
    Subject: Nobel facts
    The following are true facts and verified statistics:
    The Global Islamic population is approximately 1,200,000,000
    or 20% of the world population.
    They received the following Nobel Prizes:


    Literature:
    1988 - Najib Mahfooz.

    Peace:
    1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat
    1994 - Yaser Arafat

    Physics:
    1990 - Elias James Corey
    1999 - Ahmed Zewail


    Medicine:
    1960 - Peter Brian Medawar
    1998 - Ferid Mourad


    The Global Jewish population is aproximately 14,000,000 or
    about 0.2% of the world population.
    They received the following Nobel Prizes:

    Literature:
    1910 - Paul Heyse
    1927 - Henri Bergson
    1958 - Boris Pasternak
    1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon
    1966 - Nelly Sachs
    1976 - Saul Bellow
    1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer
    1981 - Elias Canetti
    1987 - Joseph Brodsky
    1991 - Nadine Gordimer World

    Peace:
    1911 - Alfred Fried
    1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser
    1968 - Rene Cassin
    1973 - Henry Kissinger
    1978 - Menachem Begin
    1986 - Elie Wiesel
    1994 - Shimon Peres
    1994 - Yitzhak Rabin

    Chemistry:
    1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer
    1906 - Henri Moissan
    1910 - Otto Wallach
    1915 - Richard Willstaetter
    1918 - Fritz Haber
    1943 - George Charles de Hevesy
    1961 - Melvin Calvin
    1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz
    1972 - William Howard Stein
    1977 - Ilya Prigogine
    1979 - Herbert Charle s Brown
    1980 - Paul Berg
    1980 - Walter Gilbert
    1981 - Roald Hoffmann
    1982 - Aaron Klug
    1985 - Albert A. Hauptman
    1985 - Jerome Karle
    1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach
    1988 - Robert Huber
    1989 - Sidney Altman
    1992 - Rudolph Marcus
    2000 - Alan J. Heeger

    Economics:
    1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson
    1971 - Simon Kuznets
    1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow
    1975 - Leonid Kantorovich
    1976 -! Milton Friedman
    1978 - Herbert A. Simon
    1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein
    1985 - Franco Modigliani
    1987 - Robert M. Solow
    1990 - Harry Markowitz
    1990 - Merton Miller
    1992 - Gary Becker
    1993 - Robert Fogel

    Medicine:
    1908 - Elie Metchnikoff
    1908 - Paul Erlich
    1914 - Robert Barany
    1922 - Otto Meyerhof
    1930 - Karl Landsteiner
    1931 - Otto Warburg
    1936 - Otto Loewi
    1944 - Joseph Erlanger
    1944 - Herbert Spencer Gasser
    1945 - Ernst Boris Chain
    1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller
    1950 - Tadeus Reichstein
    1952 - Selman Abraham Waksman
    1953 - Hans Krebs
    1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann
    1958 - Joshua Lederberg
    1959 - Arthur Kornberg
    1964 - Konrad Bloch
    1965 - Francois Jacob
    1965 - Andre Lwoff
    1967 - George Wald
    1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg
    1969 - Salvador Luria
    1970 - Julius Axelrod
    1970 - Sir Bernard Katz
    1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman
    1975 - Howard Martin Temin
    1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg
    1977 - Roselyn Sussman Yalow
    1978 - Daniel Nathans
    1980 - Baruj Benacerraf
    1984 - Cesar Milstein
    1985 - Michael Stuart Brown
    1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein
    1986 - Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini]
    1988 - Gertrude Elion
    1989 - Harold Varmus
    1991 - Erwin Neher
    1991 - Bert Sakmann
    1993 - Richard J. Roberts
    1993 - Phillip Sharp
    1994 - Alfred Gilman
    1995 - Edward B. Lewis

    Physics:
    1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson
    1908 - Gabriel Lippmann
    1921 - Albert Einstein
    1922 - Niels Bohr
    1925 - James Franck
    1925 - Gustav Hertz
    1943 - Gustav Stern
    1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi
    1952 - Felix Bloch
    1954 - Max Born
    1958 - Igor Tamm
    1959 - Emilio Segre
    1960 - Donald A. Glaser
    1961 - Robert Hofstadter
    1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau
    1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman
    1965 - Julian Schwinger
    1969 - Murray Gell-Mann
    1971 - Dennis Gabor
    1973 - Brian David Josephson
    1975 - Benjamin Mottleson
    1976 - Burton Richter
    1978 - Arno Allan Penzias
    1978 - Peter L Kapitza
    1979 - Stephen Weinberg
    1979 - Sheldon Glashow
    1988 - Leon Lederman
    1988 - Melvin Schwartz
    1988 - Jack Steinberger
    1990 - Jerome Friedman
    1995 - Martin Perl

    The Jews are not demonstrating with their dead on the streets,
    yelling and chanting and asking for revenge, the Jews are not
    promoting brain washing the children in military training camps, teaching them
    how to blow themselves up and cause maximum deaths of Jews and other non
    Muslims. The Jews don't highjack planes, nor kill athletes at the
    Olympics, the Jews don't traffic slaves, nor have leaders calling
    for Jihad and death to all the Infidels.
    The Jews don't have the economical strength of the Petroleum, nor
    the possibilities to force the world's media to see "their side" of
    the question. Perhaps if the world's Muslims could invest more in normal
    education and less in blaming the Jews for all their problems, we
    could all live in a better world.

  13. #13
    Hi SpeQter, what you posted is very interesting. Tama nga ang mga sinasabi mo diyan pero pwede bang paki include naman ng source mo para I can verify it myself.

    Maraming Salamat.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Aregon
    Muslims have a unique and sophisticated opinion on the idea of 'peace'.

    for example. If muslims are the minority Islam allows peace if muslims are granted equal rights and opportunities by the non-muslim majority.

    If muslims are the majority Islam only allows peace if the nation is ruled by Islamic ideals and minority religions pay protection money ('Jizya tax') in return for limited tolerance, not necessarily equal rights.

    also islam only allows peace so long as muslims remain muslims. if a muslim abandons islam he is threatened with death or expulsion/rejection by every muslim including families and friends.
    Hi Aregon, thanks for the post. You seem to be very knowledgable of Islam. Ako, medyo pinag-aaralan ko pa kasi one of my friends gave me a lot of reading materials (and a quran) to read. Sa dinami dami ng binabasa ko, very subtle ang attack ng babasahin sa Bible. And what drove me to think otherwise is the fact that Islam is trying to discredit the whole Jewish and Christian scripture tapos they claim that the quran is the summary (daw).

    How did you come to know much about them?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by speQter
    nor the possibilities to force the world's media to see "their side" of the question.
    would those possibilities include spreading e-mails like the one you just posted above?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by losav
    Remember, Muslims accept the Qur'an as the direct words of Allah. Many passages preach violence against non-believers. As long as the Qur'an is held to be words dictated by God Himself, some Muslims will be motivated to carry out the urgings of Allah to commit violence against unbelievers, including Christians and Jews.
    according to the latest studies, it appears that the Qur'an as we know it today may not even be the direct words of Muhammad himself. perhaps this post I took from LAFI will be helpful.

    Western scholars have since the nineteenth century been aware of the influence of foreign languages, particularly of the dialect of Aramaic called Syriac, on the vocabulary of the Qur’ān. Luxenberg assembles all of the pieces of this line of research into a systematic examination of the Arabic of the Qur’ān in order to provide a general solution to its many textual difficulties.The conclusions drawn about the source of the Qur’ān, its transmission history from Muhammad to cUthmān, and its thematic content rest on arguments drawn from evidence collected and examined through the tools of philological and text-critical methods. No part of the method rests on a blind acceptance of religious or traditional assumptions of any kind, especially with respect to the Arabian commentators. Until now, Western critical commentators of the first rank have not been critical enough in this regard and Luxenberg directly and indirectly through his conclusions proves that their trust was betrayed. Hence any argument that seeks to prove Luxenberg’s findings incorrect cannot assume that the earliest Arabian commentators understood correctly the grammar and lexicon of the Arabic of the Qur’ān. This is an important contribution of the study.

    Luxenberg then presents the Islamic tradition about the early transmission history of the Qur’ān. According to that tradition, khalifa cUthmān ibn cAffan (A.D. 644-656) first assembled into a single book the written record of the utterances of Muhammad (A.D. 570-632). The Qur’ān is the first book of the Arabic language of which scholars are aware. It is important because it is the basis for written Arabic, the language of a sophisticated Medieval civilization, and because for Muslims it is the source of all religious expression, theology, and law, and is held to be God’s revelation to Muhammad. For non-Muslims, it is an important literary artifact, and deserves to be studied from a historical as well as a philological perspective.

    It is the latter prespective that Luxenberg follows. Western commentators have followed Islamic tradition rather than used the reference tools and techniques of philological investigation. Luxenberg gives a brief description of the findings from important works on Qur’ānic philology in the West. Scholars have been increasingly aware of the presence in the Qur’ān of foreign terms and references to foreign historical events and that Aramaic dialects contributed most of these. However, because Western scholars maintained the technically outdated and unscientific approach of Islamic exegesis, the significance of these findings has had to wait until the present study...

    A work of this scope presented piece-meal necessarily lacks the cohesion and elegance of a full study. The implications of this method are nevertheless clear. Any future scientific study of the Qur’ān will necessarily have to take this method into consideration. Even if scholars disagree with the conclusions, the philological method is robust. It has established a discipline that is substantially different from the exegetical traditions of the Arabian and Western commentators. Luxenberg has called into question the view of the Qur’ān as a “pure” text, one free of the theological and philological difficulties that plague the transmission histories of other texts, e.g., the Hebrew Bible and its versions.

    A central question that this investigation raises is the motivation of cUthmān in preparing his redaction of the Qur’ān. Luxenberg presents the two hadīth traditions recounting how cUthmān came to possess the first manuscript. If Luxenberg’s analysis is even in broad outline correct, the content of the Qur’ān was substantially different at the time of Muhammad and cUthmān’s redaction played a part in the misreading of key passages. Were these misreadings intentional or not? The misreadings in general alter the Qur’ān from a book that is more or less harmonious with the New Testament and Syriac Christian liturgy and literature to one that is distinct, of independent origin.

    BOOK REVIEW Christoph Luxenberg (ps.) Die syro-aramaeische Lesart des Koran; Ein Beitrag zur Entschlüsselung der Qur’ānsprache.
    again, the question is the authenticity of transmission, and according to the above, the question is as relevant for Muslims as it is for Christians.

    Matthew 7:4 Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thine eye; and behold a beam is in thine own eye?

  17. #17
    Resident Terrorist ahmed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Quiapo, Manila
    Quote Originally Posted by losav
    Hi dikya, I think, anything that is against the basics in human co-existence is being shun in the Bible and Christ never permitted anyone except to love... even your own enemies. The heart of the Bible is LOVE in the agape way.

    As I know, the Qu'ran has more verses in the Qu'ran that are too violent in the Christian perspective. What prompted muslims to wage war to the kufr (non-believers) was because of the 64 verses which says so. Just to site few:

    (Sura2.190) ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...(Sura 2.191) And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

    Remember, converting the kufrs to Islam is considered a cause of Allah and what prompted muslims to raise arms is exactly viewed in this.
    Peace losav,

    I am a believer of the Quran although I am not a sunni muslim. Sunnism has tons of non-Quranic tenets in the form of hadith and sunnah which I absolutely am against. I am of the belief that the Quran alone suffices without the supplementary teachings of hadith and sunnah.

    The violent verses you are talking about killing the non-believers are during times of war, a war stratagem. It is not a command for everyday living.

    Believe it or not, the Quran is for religious freedom, as far as dealing with other people is concerned. Anybody found following an idolatrous religion should be left alone, or should be left to enjoy their life. It is up to God to punish them and not some angry Wahabee to throw a bomb at them.

    I am willing to discuss this at length and I will wait for your reply.

    Peace.

  18. #18
    Just Being Me
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahmed
    Believe it or not, the Quran is for religious freedom, as far as dealing with other people is concerned. Anybody found following an idolatrous religion should be left alone, or should be left to enjoy their life. It is up to God to punish them and not some angry Wahabee to throw a bomb at them.
    Peace.
    PEACE,

    If this is the heart of all "true" muslims, all muslims should condemn all these crack heads. And yes I've read and saw muslim leaders "condemning" all these acts, but did no ACTIONS to stop those "wahabees".
    If your book is for religious freedom, why do you have to stone all the jews you will meet? If I'm not mistaken, isn't this written in this same book?
    You don't have to be genius or some kind of a rocket scientist to figure out that this religion will only lead people to death and stupidity. Just knowing that your book believes that if you are a good muslim, you can have virgins and some other sexual pleasure after you die. What kind of motivation is that?! It's just shows that who ever is that prophet who started this cult, is just another person from hell. And all this message, though I don't expect that you will clearly see, is just the way to help others to see the cruelty of this cult.

    PEACE.

  19. #19
    Just Being Me
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Yours to Discov
    A little bit more information about hypocricy, hoping you are aware of this:

    I saw a lot of muslims boasting about their fasting time. They show people that they are not going to eat, because they are fasting. And what happened after they do this, they will have a great party! Eat all you can! Buffet!

    These muslims I've heard saying that they hate America so much, but they LIVE there... Enjoying the freedom of speech... Why don't they go back and leave the country?.. They can't, 'cause they are enjoying their life in America...

    One muslim said, "Bush is so evil, how can he handle to see those innocent people, children were dying? Why don't him send his daughters to war?" I think this guy doesn't understand what he's saying. It is the muslim leaders who's telling people to strap themselves with bomb and detonate it in front of innocent souls. Aren't they?

    Wake up and see.

  20. #20
    Resident Terrorist ahmed's Avatar
    Join Date
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    Location
    Quiapo, Manila
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonafide
    If your book is for religious freedom, why do you have to stone all the jews you will meet? If I'm not mistaken, isn't this written in this same book?
    You don't have to be genius or some kind of a rocket scientist to figure out that this religion will only lead people to death and stupidity.
    PEACE.
    Yes, you are mistaken. It is not written in the same book.

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