would you lie for your religion?

rickym · Apr 16, 2009, 09:34 AM

http://articles.latimes.com/2007/mar...al/me-priest26

Catholic doctrine is cited in priest sex abuse cases
By John Spano
March 26, 2007 in print edition B-4

An elderly nun, under questioning by a lawyer, recently said she could remember almost nothing about his client, a child who had been sexually molested by a Roman Catholic priest.

Lawyer Irwin Zalkin was puzzled because church records showed she had heard several complaints about the San Diego priest, and the file noted that she had reported them to higher authority.

Finally, Zalkin asked whether she was familiar with “mental reservation” – a 700-year-old doctrine by which clerics may avoid telling the truth to protect the Catholic Church.

“She explained in her own way that it is ‘to protect the church from scandal.’ She said she subscribed to the doctrine,” Zalkin said. “What are you going to do?”

http://thecriticalthinker.wordpress....your-religion/

"Would You Lie for Your Religion?
August 25, 2008 by Ricky M
Sounds, bad doesn’t it. Isn’t lying a sin. But tell me, would you in order to prevent scandal? Is lying for a supposedly good cause considered a sin? And is this really a good cause?

When is a lie a lie? Some say, as long as someone does not speak the truth, then it is a lie. Others assume, that when a lie is told, there is always bad intentions involved, hence if a person lies with good intentions, it is no longer a lie. The problem is, some people always convince themselves to have good intentions. Some people live in a world of delusion and manage to rationalize that they are good when in actuality they are selfish and deceitful. In a world where the biggest religion preaches on love and puts little emphasis on truth, people will inevitably try to justify their actions by saying that they did it out of love. In the above case, lying may be justified by the person for the love of his religion and his God.

As said in the quoted article, ” Mental reservation is not sanctioned in canon law”. But exactly what is sanctioned by canon law and what is absolutely true? Some Catholics have stated “dogmas” are absolute, and others “doctrines”. And what are exactly the list of dogmas and doctrines? The status of mental reservation is thus in limbo, and yet its vague status has allowed a person to actually lie under oath as seen by the above quote. How many others have possibly lied and how many others will. Actually, if you believe in mental reservation, what can prevent you from lying when asked “do you follow the doctrine of mental reservation”. You could always lie again and say that you don’t.

To put a stop to all this nonsense, if the Catholics are indeed against this usage in a court of law, they should make an official appeal to all Catholics that lying under oath is a sin. Why don’t they?"

if the catholic church covers up a pedophiliac priest, with orders from the hierarchy, would you consider it an act of the rcc or of the group of priests.

i think cover ups are lies too.
would you do a cover up for your religion?

The Whistleblower Priest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4cJ8nkOa30

Vatican Sex Crimes - Pope Benedict's Obstruction of Justice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOyb-pV61zk

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programme...ma/5389684.stm
"A secret document which sets out a procedure for dealing with child sex abuse scandals within the Catholic Church is examined by Panorama.
Crimen Sollicitationis was enforced for 20 years by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger before he became the Pope.

It instructs bishops on how to deal with allegations of child abuse against priests and has been seen by few outsiders.

Critics say the document has been used to evade prosecution for sex crimes.

Crimen Sollicitationis was written in 1962 in Latin and given to Catholic bishops worldwide who are ordered to keep it locked away in the church safe.

It instructs them how to deal with priests who solicit sex from the confessional. It also deals with "any obscene external act ... with youths of either sex."

It imposes an oath of secrecy on the child victim, the priest dealing with the allegation and any witnesses.

Breaking that oath means excommunication from the Catholic Church.

Reporting for Panorama, Colm O'Gorman finds seven priests with child abuse allegations made against them living in and around the Vatican City.

One of the priests, Father Joseph Henn, has been indicted on 13 molestation charges brought by a grand jury in the United States.

During filming for Sex Crimes and the Vatican, Colm finds Father Henn is fighting extradition orders from inside the headquarters of this religious order in the Vatican.

The Vatican has not compelled him to return to America to face the charges against him.

After filming, Father Henn lost his fight against extradition but fled the headquarters and is believed to be hiding in Italy while there is an international warrant for his arrest.

Colm O'Gorman was raped by a Catholic priest in the diocese of Ferns in County Wexford in Ireland when he was 14 years old.

Father Fortune was charged with 66 counts of sexual, indecent assault and another serious sexual offence relating to eight boys but he committed suicide on the eve of his trial.

Colm started an investigation with the BBC in March 2002 which led to the resignation of Dr Brendan Comiskey, the bishop leading the Ferns Diocese.

Colm then pushed for a government inquiry which led to the Ferns Report.

It was published in October 2005 and found: "A culture of secrecy and fear of scandal that led bishops to place the interests of the Catholic Church ahead of the safety of children."

The Catholic Church has 50 million children in its worldwide congregation and no universal child protection policy although in the UK there is the Catholic Office for the Protection of Children & Vulnerable Adults.

In some countries this means that the Crimen Sollicitationis is the only policy followed.

The Vatican has refused repeated requests from Panorama to respond to any of the cases shown in the film.

Panorama: Sex crimes and the Vatican was on BBC One on October 1 2006."

Twin-Skies · Apr 16, 2009, 09:43 AM

For my religion to cover up its ineptitude: HELL NO!

But to lie to save an innocent life from murderers (ex. lying to save a Jew from the Gestapo), I don't see a problem.

_armada_ · Apr 16, 2009, 01:50 PM

^Anyone can do that, but can anyone other than theists lie for the sake of their religion?

My question would be, would priests who help other priests escape justice be true theists nevertheless? Or just plain hypocrites? How about their condoning believers?

Twin-Skies · Apr 16, 2009, 02:11 PM

^
If it's priests, who of all people should know the intircacies off the theology, I'd call that hypocrisy. Of course that still depends on the context of the lie.

White lies I can live with, but bigger, serious forms of deception should be frowned upon. Have you read the synopsis for the movie Doubt? It seems to make for an interesting case study of this matter.

tonton · Apr 16, 2009, 09:22 PM

16:105 Making-up lies is only done by those who do not believe in God’s revelations, and these are the liars.

16:106 Whoever rejects God after having believed; except for one who is forced while his heart is still content with belief;

_armada_ · Apr 17, 2009, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twin-Skies

^
If it's priests, who of all people should know the intircacies off the theology, I'd call that hypocrisy. Of course that still depends on the context of the lie.

White lies I can live with, but bigger, serious forms of deception should be frowned upon. Have you read the synopsis for the movie Doubt? It seems to make for an interesting case study of this matter.

Sticking to the context of the thread ('lie for religion'), those priests are doing something worse: Telling other people to lie for the sake of the church--foremost being the victims' parents, or how were the offenses covered-up for so long? 'Protecting the victim' is no excuse since the courts by default keep minors' identities secret, and wouldn't these parents leave other children exposed to the same crimes by their silence?

Larry S. · Apr 20, 2009, 09:00 PM

of course! all religions are lies, which could be defended only by lies, and if lies don't work, its sentinels often resort to the cross, the gallows, the flamethrower, or to the throwing off bombs especially in NYC.

Ischaramoochie · Apr 21, 2009, 09:09 PM

with the way posters in this forum are behaving, i'd say most people would lie for their religion.

Adamantium · Apr 21, 2009, 09:44 PM

^^^ How high mindedly arrogant of you...

First cast the beam that is in your eyes, then can you judge the mote that is in your brother's...

Ischaramoochie · Apr 22, 2009, 07:32 AM

tu quoque? why be so defensive when i haven't singled you out? FYI, i have never been intellectually dishonest in this forum. if you have evidence to prove the contrary, please present it; otherwise please remain silent. lastly, i don't consider you to be my brother, nor do i share the same belief on the verse you posted so i guess it wouldn't apply to me.

Adamantium · Apr 22, 2009, 08:22 AM

And what does your self righteous "intellectual honesty" in these Forums prove?

That your statements are right, correct, and based on certitude? And that you can now lump other posters here as lying for their religion?

For your information, I have not lied either in these Forums, nor have I been intellectually dis honest here, but is constantly trying my best to defend my faith.

I believe that is also true of other posters here, and for you to lump the posters here as liars for their own faiths or religion is hypocritically and self righteously un just, un fair, and arrogant of you.

You obviously live in your high tower of intellectual hypocrisy.

But then, you don't have to be my brother in order for that universal principle to apply to you.

For as I responded to some one else here before, you can not actually escape God, His commandments, and His judgements, even if you immolate your self into your own hypocritical intellectual self creation.

Yitzchak · Apr 22, 2009, 06:11 PM

Nope, if anyone is familiar with the story of Abraham and how he defended his faith in God against worshipping idols then one should have learned that no matter how impossible it is to get away from it, at the end of the day it will set you free. Thus the term "The truth will set you free" came.

Ischaramoochie · Apr 22, 2009, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adamantium

And what does your self righteous "intellectual honesty" in these Forums prove?

That your statements are right, correct, and based on certitude?

why yes of course, logically speaking.

Quote:

And that you can now lump other posters here as lying for their religion?

i said "most people." it isn't really my problem if you see yourself as part of them, hence the defensiveness of your posts.

Quote:

For your information, I have not lied either in these Forums, nor have I been intellectually dis honest here, but is constantly trying my best to defend my faith.

I believe that is also true of other posters here, and for you to lump the posters here as liars for their own faiths or religion is hypocritically and self righteously un just, un fair, and arrogant of you.

You obviously live in your high tower of intellectual hypocrisy.

really? never lied? i thnk you might just have. the statement i just quoted from you seems to point to the contrary. did i say "other posters here are lying for their religion?" no. i said "most people would lie for their religion." there's a world of difference between the two statements, and twisting my original statement really gives others an idea of how "intellectually honest" your are in "constantly trying your best to defend your faith." well, it's either that or you really should brush up on reading comprehension.

in any case, hypocrisy is saying one thing and doing something else (like, say, saying one has never lied, and yet proceeding to twist other people's statements just to drive at a point). i think you seem to fit that description more than i do.

Quote:

But then, you don't have to be my brother in order for that universal principle to apply to you.

For as I responded to some one else here before, you can not actually escape God, His commandments, and His judgements, even if you immolate your self into your own hypocritical intellectual self creation.

oh please, why don't you just face a mirror and say those exact same words, and maybe - just maybe - they'd work this time.

p.s. while you're at it, learn some sarcasm, it may be good for you.

redhakaw · Apr 22, 2009, 08:53 PM

Quote:

But then, you don't have to be my brother in order for that universal principle to apply to you.

For as I responded to some one else here before, you can not actually escape God, His commandments, and His judgements, even if you immolate your self into your own hypocritical intellectual self creation.

oh come on, i don't even feel it now that i am and was trapped by a god. How could I even say that there is a need to escape?

the fact is Adamantium, you and your cohorts are the only one who's believing that.

There should be atleast an ounce of faith from me before anything you believe in applies to me.

i presume that that someone else you are talking about is me, right?

tonton · Apr 22, 2009, 09:04 PM

Hakaw, I think he's trying to scare you.