Katipunan's different atmosphere.......SUPERFICIAL AND PHONY..

[japs_freak]

My twin brother and I spent our summer vacation in Manila last June-August.

We visited different different universities around the metropolitan just for the sake of curiosity. We wanted to see how the people of different colleges and universities in Manila interacted, or just practically "lived" a regular school day.

We visited Katipunan Ave. is it or road? It's where the Ateneo de Manila University is located. Well, we went to the bookstore right across the street from it (National BS?). Out of all of the places around Manila, this was the bookstore where we HEARD a lot (or almost) everyone speakin' in English. We were like "isn't this the philippines and tagalog (filipino) is supposed to be the major language?". Well, it's not that I'm saying that Filipinos have to speak only in tagalog. It's just that, some other people were just TRYING so hard to get their English straight. Moreover, it was really obvious that they just wanted the people around them to hear their so-called "perfect" English". The funny part of the scene is that even little kids are influenced by this. That very day I heard this one kid with his mom (or some nanny) talk in such a way where he had to force himself to speak in ENGLISH. I was just like, "how sad is that?". I mean the kid didn't have to react in a different language just to say what he meant.

I was just someone shocked with the way people were interacting in this establishment. It's not a big deal if this is how people want to talk to each other. It's just that when people are SUPERFICIAL and PHONY, it gets sorta irritating sometimes. I just wish that people can stop being this way. Do you guys know why some filipinos are like this?

[uptowngirl]

japs_freak, looks like you haven't done much traveling around the metropolis, coz if you did you'll realize that this trying-hard-to-speak-English thing isn't exclusive to Katipunan.

The answer to your question, colonial mentality, *sigh* since time immemorial.

:turncat:

[SUX2BU]

Paging the Ateneans? :)

[king]

punta ka ng pearl drive o kaya taft (near dlsu) o kaya sa g4 o sa rockwell. gee, ur gonna hate it there.

[agent1611]

di naman!...ganda nga katipunan eh!,if only may archi. sila i would beg for admission kaso wala eh!, ateneo crowd are really different, compare mo naman sa ibang school dyan talagang mostly elite sila! as in totoong konyo!

sabi ko nga sa sarili ko atenean are very lucky kasi sa ateneo sila!, just look at the place in katipunan kundi ka ba naman maging konyo dun! :D

[I_I_I]

Originally posted by japs_freak
My twin brother and I spent our summer vacation in Manila last June-August.

We visited different different universities around the metropolitan just for the sake of curiosity. We wanted to see how the people of different colleges and universities in Manila interacted, or just practically "lived" a regular school day.

We visited Katipunan Ave. is it or road? It's where the Ateneo de Manila University is located. Well, we went to the bookstore right across the street from it (National BS?). Out of all of the places around Manila, this was the bookstore where we HEARD a lot (or almost) everyone speakin' in English. We were like "isn't this the philippines and tagalog (filipino) is supposed to be the major language?". Well, it's not that I'm saying that Filipinos have to speak only in tagalog. It's just that, some other people were just TRYING so hard to get their English straight. Moreover, it was really obvious that they just wanted the people around them to hear their so-called "perfect" English". The funny part of the scene is that even little kids are influenced by this. That very day I heard this one kid with his mom (or some nanny) talk in such a way where he had to force himself to speak in ENGLISH. I was just like, "how sad is that?". I mean the kid didn't have to react in a different language just to say what he meant.

I was just someone shocked with the way people were interacting in this establishment. It's not a big deal if this is how people want to talk to each other. It's just that when people are SUPERFICIAL and PHONY, it gets sorta irritating sometimes. I just wish that people can stop being this way. Do you guys know why some filipinos are like this?


What's wrong with speaking in English? As far as I know we live in a democratic country and everyone's entitled to verbalize their thoughts in the way they prefer. Besides, how are we supposed to learn how to speak English if we don't even practice speaking in this language? This is not to say that we'll have to drop the Filipino language. But proficiency in English makes Filipinos better professionals/laborers in the international job arena. Add to that, Filipinos, by virtue of this proficiency, are by far better communicators than most of their fellow Asians (and maybe even Europeans to some extent).

I think the people you've come across with never really intended to irritate you, nor be superficial. It's just that you who have problems accepting people who try to broaden their communication repertoir, beyond our native language.

[king]

ok lang english basta tama ang grammar nila. wokei?

[bugsbunny]

porke't nagiingles lang, atenista na. hindi lang ang atenista ang nagiingles, maraming tao sa pilipinas ang nagiingles.

[PS]

Haaay nakow.

I for one am saddened in the use of English in our society.

NAiinis rin ako pagka yung mga magulang, in a false sense of "sosyal-ako-pag-english-speaking-anak-ko" teach their kids at the onset to speak in english. Dapat ini-encourage ang mga Pilipino magsalita sa sariling wika. Ang Ingles ay ikalawang wika lamang--let it stay that way. (siempre, kailangan meron tayong proficiency in English....so we have to improve in English AND Filipino.

tsk tsk tsk

Dapat matutunan nating mahalin ang ating sariling wika. At hindi ko sinasabi na Filipino/ Tagalog lang. Dapat nga pagyamanin natin ang paggamit ng tagalog, cebuano, chavacano. Dapat mahalin natin ang ating sariling salita.

Nakakalungkot lang na mas gusto ng mga tao ang Ingles....:bigcry:

Political will where are you??!!

:rolleyes:

[nina malagu]

Originally posted by I_I_I



What's wrong with speaking in English? As far as I know we live in a democratic country and everyone's entitled to verbalize their thoughts in the way they prefer. Besides, how are we supposed to learn how to speak English if we don't even practice speaking in this language? This is not to say that we'll have to drop the Filipino language. But proficiency in English makes Filipinos better professionals/laborers in the international job arena. Add to that, Filipinos, by virtue of this proficiency, are by far better communicators than most of their fellow Asians (and maybe even Europeans to some extent).

I think the people you've come across with never really intended to irritate you, nor be superficial. It's just that you who have problems accepting people who try to broaden their communication repertoir, beyond our native language.


Are you not appreciating the thought that we Filipinos are willing to learn and master the English Language? Whoever started this thread, please try to think first before you speak out and type your thoughts here at the PinoyExchange, ok?

Even though some people speak bad English, at least they are trying to use and practice that.

[beej]

teka. atenista na naman. hindi naman lahat ng nangingingles atenista ano, marami ring taga-miriam na ganyan.

plus, siguro kung kailangan mong mang-ingles sa karamihan ng classes mo, tama ngang may practice.

tsaka pano naman yung pakikitungo mo sa mga "imported" students ng ateneo? plus, yung mga bisaya, guess what? mas magaling sila mag-ingles kaysa magtagalog dahil sa cebu or wherever, ang konyo dun e tagalog.

so pakikibagay lang yan lahat. mahal ko ang wikang filipino. subalit hindi naman porke nangingingles ay tama nang tawaging superficial and phony.

[specs]

i used to be from the Katipunan area. I think speaking in English forms part of the 'culture' there. In fairness to the Ateneans, as what beej said, they're not the only ones speaking in English. There are students from Miriam College and Kostka High School who add to the English speaking people in the area. I don't know about Kostka but I know that Miriam and Ateneo are schools that are known to have a good reputation in using the English language (at least, from the time I was still in Katipunan). I don't know if they've lost their English proficiency.
Anyway, the use of the English language is considered a 'higher' skill by many. This may be attributed to colonial mentality, as what uptowngirl said in her reply. Having been under the Spaniards for almost 400 years and having been an American Commonwealth for several years, it is not surprising that this is so.
However, there is actually an irony: Filipinos can't speak straight english nor straight Filipino. Halo-halo espesyal ang Pinoy. I guess, that's the saddest part--not being able to communicate perfectly in either language. The only solution that I think will work is to have better and stricter instruction in English and Filipino in both the elementary and High School levels.

[indigo]

Originally posted by specs
The only solution that I think will work is to have better and stricter instruction in English and Filipino in both the elementary and High School levels.

I'm not so sure that that will work either. I think the social environment is the most contributing factor and you can't really keep other people from speaking in Taglish if they are used to expressing themselves that way.

Personally, I've spent most of my life thinking and speaking primarily in English. But in college, I found that this intimidated some people and made them wary of speaking to me, and so I practiced my Tagalog. I'm not too keen on Taglish either, so I worked on being able to speak it straight, without having to mix English words in.:) These days, I reply in the language I was addressed in: kung Tagalog ang tanong, eh di tagalog ko rin sinasagot, kung Ingles eh di Ingles, kung Taglish, Taglish din. After all, the whole point is to communicate, right? :)

[king]

moreover, peyups is just a stone throw's away..... tama be english ko (gasp!)

[SuguS]

Originally posted by japs_freak
We visited Katipunan Ave. is it or road? It's where the Ateneo de Manila University is located. Well, we went to the bookstore right across the street from it (National BS?). Out of all of the places around Manila, this was the bookstore where we HEARD a lot (or almost) everyone speakin' in English. We were like "isn't this the philippines and tagalog (filipino) is supposed to be the major language?". Well, it's not that I'm saying that Filipinos have to speak only in tagalog. It's just that, some other people were just TRYING so hard to get their English straight. Moreover, it was really obvious that they just wanted the people around them to hear their so-called "perfect" English". The funny part of the scene is that even little kids are influenced by this. That very day I heard this one kid with his mom (or some nanny) talk in such a way where he had to force himself to speak in ENGLISH. I was just like, "how sad is that?". I mean the kid didn't have to react in a different language just to say what he meant.

I was just someone shocked with the way people were interacting in this establishment. It's not a big deal if this is how people want to talk to each other. It's just that when people are SUPERFICIAL and PHONY, it gets sorta irritating sometimes. I just wish that people can stop being this way. Do you guys know why some filipinos are like this?

iingglisin ko ang sagot ko para kay japs_freak.

WHAT THE F IS WRONG WITH SPEAKING ENGLISH? you obviously need to do a bit of research about the philippines. the philippines is officially bilingual, and in reality, multilingual. english and filipino are both considered official languages in the RP. english is the lingua franca of most business and law, while filipino is used in much of mass media.

but in actuality, the philippines is a multilingual nation with more than 70 dialects and 8 major language groups. almost all filipinos can speak at least two languages/dialects.

filipinos who just HAPPEN to speak english don't speak it because they're TRYING to prove anything to anyone. it's possible that it: (1) really does happen to be their first language, as in some households; (2) is the language that they're trying to learn since it JUST SO HAPPENS to be THE international language.

i do agree that a common native language--such as filipino--is necessary to unite a people culturally, (and i strongly believe that all filipinos should master a native language) but i also think that the more languages ANYONE knows, the better.

and IF SOMEONE IS TRYING TO LEARN A NEW LANGUAGE, ISN'T THAT A LOT BETTER THAN SOME PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO ONLY LEARN ONE LANGUAGE AND DON'T BOTHER TO LEARN ANYONE ELSE'S LANGUAGE?

sheesh, japs_freak. QUIT YOUR LINGUISTIC ARROGANCE. so you think the japanese should ONLY speak japanese and the malays should ONLY speak malaysian and the germans should ONLY speak german and the indians should ONLY speak hindi and mexicans should ONLY speak mexican???? get out of your suburban californian home and step into the REAL world. depriving another country of the freedom to learn ANY FREAKING LANGUAGE THEY WANT is the worst kind of neo-imperalist arrogance i've seen.

[BabyFATS]

In fairness to japs_freak, I think he/she wasn't trying to point out the English-speaking per se. It's the superficiality of trying so hard to speak English when it doesn't come out right that bothers him/her. He/She did say "some Filipinos" so there was no generalizing everyone.

Let me just say that it's not only English-speaking that people can be phony with, it's basically everything that everyone else might consider a status symbol - your clothes, your car, your stuff, your education, your dogs even or whatever else you have. How do you know they're phonies? I don't know, but you get vibes from people, how they come across, if they're natural or superficial.

Meanwhile, it's up to you if you want to get affected. You can be annoyed all you want and they wouldn't care. Or you can move on and live your life and forget about things you can't change. :)

[cretinous00]

maybe japs freak meant that for a country so poor, so desperate and so backward, there shouldn't be any privileged class; there shouldn't be any one or any group pretending to be the member of an elite group; and most especially, shoudln't insist on mastering a language clearly not suited for them.

just my rumination

[japs_freak]

Sugus....I don't know if you misunderstood, miscomprehended or whatnot my post...but it seems like you need to read the post one more time!

You're one funny person to be thinking this way. Alright, one thing that I want to clarify is that I'm not depriving Filipinos from speaking ENGLISH! If you think that way, then I assume you have problems. If you do, I think you should be spilling it over here on this thread.

The point I'm making here is that I'm not irritated at all with the fact that people speak ENGLISH in the Philippines, but the way they say it. They say it with such superficiality to the point where their being very obnoxious just to attract peope's attention. Again, I don't know if the people I've encountered have short attention spans, but the way they carry themselves "with" the language is somewhat fake.

Just because I reside in a suburban society (Anaheim) does NOT have anything to do with the way I see the world! I'm exposed to people of different backgrounds every single day, and boy do I get along with all of them perfectly fine. I mean, I definately don't need a reality check. Furthermore, if you think I'm not globally exposed, think again, I can bet you that I've traveled far more than you!

What are you talking about neo-imperialism? My main motive in this thread was not to generalize and criticize the Filipino people speaking ENGLISH? C'mon dude, had you read my thread a little carefully the first time around, you probabaly won't react this way regarding my thread. Did you pass your reading comprehenion exams? I frankly think you don't!

Just one correction: Mexicans don't speak MEXICAN! (You should already know the answer for this if you were smart enough to understand my thread).

Recommendations: Go back to school so you can further you reading comprehension skills and don't assume everything you read is what you think it is. Hope you pass this time!

Lates homie
Peace

[rors]

i understand your sentiments, japs_freak. it's really kinda irritating to hear people try to speak in english when they really can't. it's colonial mentality. i'm not against in speaking english. i'm just against in its wrong usage. kung di kaya, e di wag na lang. like, what's the point? it's obvious that some people try just for show not knowing that they end up looking stupid.

i'm an atenean, and i can say that even inside ateneo college, there are those who can really speak english fluently, and those who just try for show.

but then again, there's nothing you can do about it.

[SCHAUDENFRAUDE]

Originally posted by king
moreover, peyups is just a stone throw's away..... tama be english ko (gasp!)


:p :p :p

Taga-Katips area din ako, at taga Peyups din. Di lang naman Atenista nagi-Inggles, minsan overdone pa nga pag tagaUP. And what's wrong with English? Mastery lang naman yun, bad naman kung hahaluan natin ng perception of pasosyal thingy yun, like you know, it's not so coño naman talaga, really, it's just that speaking english is so like, comfortable, coz you know, it's easier to make kwento when you make salita in English, kasi there are things naman that's so hard to make express in Tagalog and more often than not pa nga we really don't have Filipino terms or expressions for some concepts, like ok, psycholinguistics-wise, and speaking english is just making our pag-uusap a lot easier, di ba?

[rAiNeDaNcE19]

Well, in all fairness, marami rin talagang taga-Ateneo ang trying hard na napakasarap pagpiga-pigain ang leeg. I'm Atenean by the way and I don't deny na, yes, marami talaga ang pilit mag-TAGLISH, and it irks me to no end. (naku nahawa na ata ako ^_^; *Gasp*) Pero, ang dami dami rin na napakagaling talaga mag-English, as in kuhang kuha ang tono na kung d mo nakitang Pinoy ang itsura eh you'll bet your life on the voice na it belonged to an American. So ayun. Ewan ko ba ano ang point ko... sorry if naguluhan lang kayo hehe ^_^;

[Ramirez]

I guess japs_freak does not really understand how language is so diverse here in the Philippines. Maybe he just misinterpreted the intonation and accent of those Filipinos he heard talking in the bookstore.

Here in the Philippines English is spoken in a myriad of ways. You have the Atenean way of English which is as many would notice almost perfect to a fault. Then there are those who speak in a pidgin or mixture of English with sprinkles of Filipino. Then there are those who speak Filipino peppered here and there with English. But there are some who really do speak English just to impress. But the bottom line is English is as much part of the Filipino tongue as Tagalog. I think many of us are suffering from an irrational rejection of a language that is so widely used we might as well call it our own.

I don't see anything wrong with trying to speak in perfect English. I think that making an effort to speak the damn English language correctly is far better than a Fil-Am speaking Tagalog, Cebuano, Kapampangan etc. incorrectly. I mean at least many of us here in the Philippines can communicate with Americans on an equal proficiency using English. Can Americans and Filipino-Americans do the same using Tagalog as the vehicle? I think not.

The debate revolves around two words "SUPERFICIAL" and "PHONY." japs_freak has not really clarified what he meant by this. But judging from the area that he noticed this irritation of his, I guess he was referring to an almost-impeccable American twang rolling off the tongues of the people in the bookstore. Correct me if I'm wrong with my assumption, but japs_freak is probably irritated by the fact that there are Filipinos who were born and raised locally that can speak English as well if not better than him. I think his expectation of students here is that they speak English in that unmistakeable accent that bespeaks "non-American." As if the students here are supposed to speak English like a recent immigrant to the States who still bear traces of the Ilocano, Ilonggo or Cebuano accent. Things are no longer like that for many people in Manila. They're not being superficial or phony, they just speak English well. Maybe it would be better if japs_freak would try to speak Filipino the way we speak it with no dragging of vowels as many Fil-Ams are wont to do.

[pyket]

bravo, ramirez!!! love your post!!! you're one of the few who've actually made objective sense here.

indeed, the problem lies in japs_freak's failure to operationally define 'phony' and 'superficial'. exactly what does it mean to be such? what in the english exactly ticked you off and made you conclude that those people were being superficial and phony?

it's rather unfair for people to limit the use of english to those privilege enough to speak it fluently. some people have made this point, but it has yet to be address by japs_freak: how can any person learn a different language by not practicing it outside the context of the classroom? if i were to learn french for instance, should i be confined to speaking it merely in my classroom merely because i haven't mastered it yet? or should i go out and converse with other francophones? and what if i can speak french fluently --- accents included? am i phony and superficial because i don't speak it with a so-called 'filipino-accent'?

some other person in the thread loosely talked about 'colonial mentality...' colonial mentality is the irrational (often automatic or 'pre-existing') belief that the colonizer is always more privileged or presents a brighter existence than that already available in the (former) 'colony'. while i do not argue that english is associated with the united states, i must also say that people who choose to converse in english are not always subscribing to such a mentality! that oversimplifies such an english versus filipino argument (that hopefully this thread does not reach). that's like saying that every single filipino who migrates to the united states is guilty of colonial mentality. there are other implications and factors to be considered in both cases. let's not fall into the trap of using a safer and more convenient label for something that we truly do not have a label for, shall we?

[uptowngirl]

Kudos Ramirez:up:

:turncat:

[go_figure]

if it irritates you, don't listen :D

[Chartreuse]

I can understand where japs_freak is coming from...

Sometimes, I get irritated at the way Filipinos speak English. I have no problem with speaking English per se, what irks me is that Filipinos often try to imitate the twang of Americans. To speak good English, all you need is correct grammar and good pronunciation...so why do some people need to "Americanize" their accents?

Sure, you need to adjust when you speak to foreigners..based on experience, you really have to speak the "American way" or else they won't understand your English that well. But when you speak English to a fellow Filipino, do you really need to use the twang? Oh please...

[topnotch97]

:D to tell you the truth japs_freak, i think you should stay in manila a little bit more perhaps a year or so. then you'll get some answers to most of your mindboggling questions. and you'll understand why "those" people that you mentioned are "trying-hard" to speak English.

the way i see it, you expect a different culture from what you've heard or what your parents have told you about this and that about the philippines. my guess is that your parents have been staying in the US for a very very long time now, and they are unaware on the current culture of the Philippines. perhaps the only thing they know about the philippines would be about politics (heard from the net or TFC), but never the daily lives of most filipinos. News from TFC is just a tiny fraction about the Philippines and not as a whole.

:rolleyes:
since you mentioned that you are exposed to different cultures here in the states then how come you are shocked when you go out of this country and visit other countries? maybe because there is still a lot more that you need to know especially outside a country where you've spent most of your time living.


"wow pare, let's play golf.....just text me na lang okay?"

[brooke]

In response to Chartreuse's post, I think we, as rors pointed out, need to differentiate those who speak English for communication and those who do so for show. For those who do so for the former, I don't see anything wrong with Filipinos who try to speak English with an American accent. First of all, you yourself said that it's important for Filipinos to "adjust" their manner of speaking when talking to foreigners, thus that would mean talking with an accent. If, as pyket pointed out, the only way to master a language is through everyday usage, why should we keep people from trying to learn English using the accent? I wouldn't want to be caught in a conversation with foreigners and have a hard time communicating because I have to constantly keep in mind to use an American accent instead of the normal, "Filipino" accent I'm used to in everyday conversation. I'm not saying we should all try to "Americanize" our accents; I'm just saying we should let these people be. After all, the point of a language is to communicate with ease, and if they'd be more comfortable communicating with accents, then let them.

Furthermore, don't you think accent has something to do with pronunciation? And thus, improving one's accent betters his pronunciation as well? To illustrate, there's something about the way the average Filipino pronounces vowels that makes it rather hard for the average American to understand him. I remember my aunt in the States who kept on reminding my brother to enunciate (like saying "hat" almost like "het" and not like "hot"). :D So I guess learning the accent is just a way of improving a person's command of a language. :)

[rao]

c'mon people


you have to give it to the arrneans (the people in arrneow?)



speaking straight english with an American twang - yan lang alam nila

[pyket]

errrrr... hindi naman yata ganoon kababaw yung pinag-uusapan sa thread. unless yung katipunan part lang yung inintindi mo. school bashing ba na naman? :rolleyes:

[ricey]

I sure hope this is not a school-bashing thread I'm intruding into. I, myself, came from Ateneo. I do not deny that a lot of people inside the school do speak English for show, but a good number of people also do so because it's the language they know best and a language which they feel can best express themselves in.

Japs_freak, the Katipunan area is frequented not only by Ateneo students but by a diverse populating being a major commercial area as it is. In any case, I do not see anything wrong with people trying to speak English, even for show, because at least they are trying to learn the language, whether for good aims or not. That does not make them any less of a Filipino.

[zimdude]

I graduated from Ateneo, and am guilty of speaking in the accent japs_freak describes, but I am not living in a mental colony (or subject to colonial mentality), and I think I'm nationalistic in my own way.

[Guile]

Things that are pretty stupid in this country!

1. A court verdict being given to an uneducated pinoy criminal in English!

2. A presidential impeachment trial that matters to everybody in this country being delivered in English.

3. An extra burden in your studies by studying lessons that are written in English in which a lot of us are less familiar with as compared to our native language.

4. A Filipino parent living in the Philippines so eager to teach his/her child to learn English at an early age, sacrificing the child’s learning of the most important language, which is his native one. In this case, the parent is no authority of English whatsoever because he too haven’t mastered really the language yet, so practically what the parent teaches the child is just plain Pinoy English. And what’s even worse, the parent don’t foresee himself sending his child to the US in the near future to let him live there, but the plain reason for the parent’s action is just that he wants too boost his ego by parading his English speaking child. Man, this is so typical in elitists. F*ck those conios!

5. Those who mock at those who make grammatical errors. F*ck them all! The best English learners will always be the ones who enjoy a high level of freedom in what they say, without the presence of those grammar mocking ********.

6. Those who tell that EVERYONE has a right to speak to a person in whatever language they prefer because this is a democratic country an all. From this stupid analogy, Kris Aquino talking to an illiterate jologs in her typical annoying English has nothing wrong in it. Damn those HYPOCRITES. Not all the time, its correct to speak in English, or whatever language a person prefers.












I think the people you've come across with never really intended to irritate you, nor be superficial. It's just that you who have problems accepting people who try to broaden their communication repertoir, beyond our native language.

What you don’t accept is that some people who speak English in an unnecessary situation can be pretty annoying.

ok lang english basta tama ang grammar nila.

The person who wrote this is a certified victim of a high school teacher’s strict English speaking policy.

To PS,
You’re the man!

WHAT THE F IS WRONG WITH SPEAKING ENGLISH?

When the situation is awkward, obviously. When it is used in an uncalled situation.

filipinos who just HAPPEN to speak english don't speak it because they're TRYING to prove anything to anyone

That’s one BIG A$$ lie you posted there.

maybe japs freak meant that for a country so poor, so desperate and so backward, there shouldn't be any privileged class; there shouldn't be any one or any group pretending to be the member of an elite group; and most especially, shoudln't insist on mastering a language clearly not suited for them.

just my rumination

What he’s trying to say is it aint pretty good for a PINOY to learn where Westchester, New York is when he doesn’t even know yet where is Pampanga. Get my drift?

Well, in all fairness, marami rin talagang taga-Ateneo ang trying hard na napakasarap pagpiga-pigain ang leeg. I'm Atenean by the way and I don't deny na, yes, marami talaga ang pilit mag-TAGLISH, and it irks me to no end. (naku nahawa na ata ako ^_^; *Gasp*) Pero, ang dami dami rin na napakagaling talaga mag-English, as in kuhang kuha ang tono na kung d mo nakitang Pinoy ang itsura eh you'll bet your life on the voice na it belonged to an American. So ayun. Ewan ko ba ano ang point ko... sorry if naguluhan lang kayo hehe ^_^;

Man, I like this post so much, I want to have sex with the person who made this. Joke lang. HEHE! Natumbok mo!

Learning English is fine. Speaking it just to boost a person’s ego is wrong. And definitely, yung number 4 na sinulat ko sa taas is wrong.

[Chartreuse]

Accent is very different from pronunciation. Switch on the radio to any local FM station and there you have it...these are the fake American accents I'm talking about.

Modesty aside, when I was in the US before, an American salesperson complimented my English when she had found out that I was not a US resident. I had never adopted an accent whenever I spoke English.

Like I said before, good English rests on grammar and pronunciation. Accent has nothing to do with it. The hat example given earlier is precisely a pronunciation problem, it has nothing to do with accent. I can pronounce "het" without the need of sounding like George W. Bush. (sorry, I had to give an sxaggerated example)

[gpov]

I remember being introduced to someone and she kept talking in English. I spoke in tagalog and she kept replying in english. I was slowly getting irritated, but I found out she was from Cebu and she understood Tagalog but she found it difficult to speak tagalog. It was easier to speak in English.

What's my point? Our perceptions can always betray us. Jap_freak's perception on the phony and superficial english is just that. A perception!!! He got irritated but he never bothered to ask them why they spoke that way.

I know of a chinese couple from Singapore. They have one child and the mother speaks to the child in straight mandarin and the father speaks to the child only in straight english. This is to help the child develop skills in both languages. The child must also reply in straight mandarin or english and not mix it up. The father is a friend of mine and he somtimes tells me that he feels so phony speaking to his child in english when he can sometimes more appropriately express his feelings in mandarin.

I believe that tolerance for the rights others is paramount. They have every right to speak english no matter how phony or superficial it may sound to anyone else.

[pyket]

guile: dude, you have got one major bone to pick, obviously. pero i'm kinda bothered with something --- and correct me if i'm wrong. you said:

4. A Filipino parent living in the Philippines so eager to teach his/her child to learn English at an early age, sacrificing the child’s learning of the most important language, which is his native one. In this case, the parent is no authority of English whatsoever because he too haven’t mastered really the language yet, so practically what the parent teaches the child is just plain Pinoy English. And what’s even worse, the parent don’t foresee himself sending his child to the US in the near future to let him live there, but the plain reason for the parent’s action is just that he wants too boost his ego by parading his English speaking child. Man, this is so typical in elitists. F*ck those conios!

ewan ko lang sa mga karanasan mo, pero sa mga karanasan ko, wala pa naman akong nakikitang magulang na "barok" ang inggles na nagtuturo ng inggles sa kani-kanilang mga anak nang sa gayon, kinalimutan na ang sariling wika. i.e., hindi ko maisip na kayang gawin ng magulang na hindi naman "marunong" talagang magsalita ng inggles na i-brainwash (for lack of a better term) ang anak para isipin na mas mauna ang inggles. ewan ko lang.

ako nakaranas na ako ng kainis-inis na elitistang magulang. pilipino sila at may anak silang lalaking pilipino rin --- at naninirahan sila rito sa pilipinas. ipinagbabawal ng magulang na magsalita ng pilipino ang kanilang anak. bawal sumagot ang anak sa mga kakausap sa kanya sa pilipino. sa madaling salita, bawal ang patalastasang pilipino sa pamamahay, maging sa labas ng bahay. isang reaksyon lang ang naramdaman ko nung nalaman ko 'to: gusto ko silang sakalin, pagsampal-sampalin, kaladkarin sa kalye at hagisan ng mga bato. pero hindi naman yata angkop nang lubusan ang kwento ko sa analohiya mo.

questions:

1) what if the parent teaching his/her child is an authority in english? i mean, what if they can really speak fluent english? is it right for them then?

2) do you believe that all parents who teach english to their child as elitists, regardless of whatever reasons.

kasi sa pagkakaintindi ko sa post mo. nababahala ka sa mga magulang (na hindi naman talaga marunong magsalita ng inggles) na nagtuturo ng "plain Pinoy English" sa kani-kanilang mga anak. paano nga kung marunong naman sila magsalita ng inggles? okay na ba kung ganoon? hindi ba pagpapaka-elitista ang ganitong pag-iisip?

do people have to send their children to some english-speaking country in order to justify teaching their kids english? and how are we to know that it's just one big ego-trip for the parents? (though i must admit there are people like that)

[Guile]

ewan ko lang sa mga karanasan mo, pero sa mga karanasan ko, wala pa naman akong nakikitang magulang na "barok" ang inggles na nagtuturo ng inggles sa kani-kanilang mga anak nang sa gayon, kinalimutan na ang sariling wika. i.e., hindi ko maisip na kayang gawin ng magulang na hindi naman "marunong" talagang magsalita ng inggles na i-brainwash (for lack of a better term) ang anak para isipin na mas mauna ang inggles. ewan ko lang.

By mentioning the word “Pinoy English”, I’m referring to the language spoken by Pinoys who haven’t lived in a situation where it’s imperative to learn the language (katulad nung mag hindi pa tumitira abroad, to the places where speaking English is a must for a person to be able to socialize). Honestly I consider those who had impressive formal education in the language to be futile if they haven’t live their life with the language yet.

So if I’m gonna choose between a pinoy kid who lived 5 years of his life in the States where the people around him don’t know tagalog, against a ego boosted pinoy living here all his life who even took up this yadda yadda college-and-beyond education and stuff to master the language, I’d say the kid is better.

No Pinoy can ever be great at English unless he lives it. He doesn’t just have to learn it, but he has to LIVE it too. If he doesn’t live it, he’s just as lousy as a lot of Filipinos here. So he should stop mocking everyone he notices them to have a wrong grammar.

what if the parent teaching his/her child is an authority in english? i mean, what if they can really speak fluent english? is it right for them then?

That depends on how the parent decides on where he’ll allow his child to live. If the child will live here, dapat, yung native tongue. If the child will live in the US, dapat English. I don’t think English authority is much of an issue here. Nasa sitwasyon ng bata yan kung anong lenguahe ang dapat niyang matutunan. But it’s true that nakakapikon talaga yung elitist parents. And I find that a lot of pinoy elitists haven’t really mastered English

Nakakapikon talaga yung mga taong pupwersahin kang matutunan ang isang bagay na kahit sila eh hindi pa naman talaga totally na natututunan.

do you believe that all parents who teach english to their child as elitists, regardless of whatever reasons.

If you’re referring to those anti-Filipino language ones that don’t even live abroad and don’t plan to send their kids there, YES!

do people have to send their children to some english-speaking country in order to justify teaching their kids English.

Not to send per se, kailangan doon talaga titira yung kid.

Yes, specifically kung dito naman nakatira yung bata tapos mauunahan pa niyang matutunan yung English kaysa sa native language niya. The parents should bring their strict English enforcement elsewhere, not here where the child’s local language proficiency will be jeopardized. Unahin muna ang local language bago yung foreign kung dito nakatira yung bata. It’s pretty obvious naman which language has the higher priority.

[pyket]

Originally posted by Guile


By mentioning the word “Pinoy English”, I’m referring to the language spoken by Pinoys who haven’t lived in a situation where it’s imperative to learn the language (katulad nung mag hindi pa tumitira abroad, to the places where speaking English is a must for a person to be able to socialize). Honestly I consider those who had impressive formal education in the language to be futile if they haven’t live their life with the language yet.

this is the part that bothers me dahil hindi ko naiintindihan yung gusto mong sabihin. am i correct in taking what you said as you believe that formal education in english is futile for filipinos who haven't lived in the states or any other english speaking country? ganoon ba yung gusto mong sabihin? paki-liwanag lang dahil medyo malabo yung ganoong statement. communication is communication is communication --- if a person deems the learning of a foreign language vital to communication (in the present or for the future), then by all means, learn and try to speak that language.

So if I’m gonna choose between a pinoy kid who lived 5 years of his life in the States where the people around him don’t know tagalog, against a ego boosted pinoy living here all his life who even took up this yadda yadda college-and-beyond education and stuff to master the language, I’d say the kid is better.

back to your "ego-boosting" term. ano ba talaga ang ibig mong sabihin sa "ego-boosting" at paano mo nga malalaman na ego-booster lang yung pag-aaral at pananalita niya ng inggles? paano mo maiiba yung ego-boosters sa hindi ego-boosters?

No Pinoy can ever be great at English unless he lives it. He doesn’t just have to learn it, but he has to LIVE it too. If he doesn’t live it, he’s just as lousy as a lot of Filipinos here. So he should stop mocking everyone he notices them to have a wrong grammar.

again, what do you mean by "living" the language? does that entail residing in an english-speaking country? what does it mean to "live" a language? do you follow cultural mores and norms?


Yes, specifically kung dito naman nakatira yung bata tapos mauunahan pa niyang matutunan yung English kaysa sa native language niya. The parents should bring their strict English enforcement elsewhere, not here where the child’s local language proficiency will be jeopardized. Unahin muna ang local language bago yung foreign kung dito nakatira yung bata. It’s pretty obvious naman which language has the higher priority.

while i agree that education in the native tongue is imperative and important, i must say that i disagree with your "beliefs" as a whole, or rather i disagree with the logic behind your "beliefs".

tinatanong ko sa sarili ko kung ano ang mas importanteng pananalita: inggles ba, o pilipino. hindi maaring kalimutan na pilipino ako, sa pilipinas ako ipinanganak at lumaki. pinalilibutan ako ng mga pilipino. wika ito ng aking bansa. kahit saan pa ako naninirahan, pilipino ako at pilipino ang pananalita ng aking kaluluwa. sa kabilang dako, hindi rin naman maitatangging ang salitang inggles ang pangunahing pananalita sa daigdig. sabi nga ng karamihan, "english is the universal language." ito ang pananalitang ginagamit sa matematika, sa siyensya, sa mundo ng komersyo, at sa marami pang ibang larangan. ano nga ba ang mas importante?

oo, naniniwala akong pilipino ang mas importante. the filipino language is part of my cultural heritage and identity. it has been invaluable in shaping who I am and who i shall become. BUT, english, i believe, is a mere notch down on a scale of importance. if, indeed, english is the universal language, why should we not learn it even if we reside in the philippines? is it because we might seem pretentious, or elitists if we use a foreign tongue? is it because we can never be like the americans or the english when we speak it?

this line of thinking bothers me because of several reasons:

first of all, why should the mere use of english be branded as something elitist and political as you imply? while it is true that language CAN be used politically, it does not automatically follow that an english speaking filipino is being political about it.

second, you said that it's futile for a person to study english if he or she has no intention of residing in america or any other english-speaking country. why is it futile? you're implying that the study of english goes hand-in-hand with colonial mentality or even the eventual "subjugation" of the speaker to that english-speaking country. sinasabi mo mas nararapat para sa isang pilipinong nagnanais na tumira sa ibang bansa na mag-aral ng inggles kaysa sa pilipinong maninirahan lamang dito. isn't that, in itself, your own form of elitism? that of "pwede, IF you're residing abroad" versus "dito ka naman nakatira"?

you, yourself, said that depende sa sitwasyon ng bata kung ano ang lengwaheng dapat niyang pag-aralan. if you leave the reason for learning the language subjectively open to circumstances and situations, as you claimed in your post, then what right do we have to brand kids speaking english as elitists? depende naman pala sa sitwasyon, eh. ang tanong: alam ba natin ang sitwasyon, o pakiramdam lang natin? basahin mo yung post ni gpov for more into this.

[zimdude]

kailangan nang palitan ang pamagat ng thread na 'to... anyway... since we're in the education forum... yung ibang konsepto kasi mas madaling maintindihan sa ingles, maski hindi "conyo." halimbawa, makikita mo sa kalye na may nagbabasa ng English tabloids.

sa palagay ko ang Tagalog/Pilipino/etc. ay higit na ginagamit bilang isang spoken/conversational language samantalang ang English ay hiyang na written language.

sinu-sino dito ang magaling magbasa ng Tagalog?

[Guile]

Teka pyket, ang haba ng post mo ah!

Nasa cyber cafe pa ako. I'll reply later.

To make my point simple--no one has the right na pagtawanan o laitin ang isang tao na hindi magaling sa isang language.

I'll post more later.