Why many still prefer to study in foreign universities, given the chance

[Aleancelo]

I hope you won't accuse me of colonial mentality. Instead, let's not be hypocrites. Let's face the music and let's be realistic: Except for law and medicine, Philippine graduate degrees are still being held in low regard globally. I mean, GLOBALLY, in contrast to locally. That's G-L-O-B-A-L-L-Y. Got it? And when you say, globally, I repeat globally, we refer to the international arena. And I'm speaking based on my personal experience from my grad studies in the US (it's summer break right now). In fact, a bachelor's degree from Ox-Bridge or the Ivy League carries a much heavier weight than a PhD from UP, Ateneo, DLSU, UST, etc. which many Americans consider only as at par with their Division III universities. Of course, as a Pinoy, I felt insulted since I earned my degrees from two of these universities. However, as I have stated earlier, the only exceptions are law and medicine. Since I got my LLB from the State U, then I guess.... well. However, all other grad courses from the Philippines are fair game. We don't have to look that far. No less than President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo likes to portray herself as a Georgetown-educated economist even though she only studied there for a few years for her undergraduate degree. Not too many people know that she earned her doctorate from the UP School of Economics.

[huntfan]

^^^

Pag nasa US ka ba Global na katumbas nun? Wala ako sa US, pero nasa foreign country din ako and I worked with Australians, British, Indians, Arabs and Germans.. Equal naman treament ng company ko sa degree ko (ME from UP) as with the degree of my colleagues. Considered as engineer ako, in a management position pa nga eh. Di ako nakarinig sa kanila na.. "alright you will not be considered as an ME here because you obtained your degree from the Philippines".. Engineers from Pinas are held in a very high regard in my company.

[tnorth5000]

Engineering graduates from the Philippines are sometimes even better from the graduates here in the US- in my own experience. Be proud of our Engineers from RP whether UP,Mapua,DLSU or IIT. One measuring stick is that you have to pass the State Board Exam of the state you are in(Kahit UC Berkeley or Cornell ka pa graduate). RP engineers are treated highly here in the US because we are usually hardworking and has a good command of English compared to say a Chinese or Japanese Engr.:) Be proud of our eduacational system because I was once a beneficiary of it.

[tnorth5000]

Im working here in the US and there are at least 75 Pinoy Engineers graduates from RP . Salary ranges from $70 K to 110K per annum benefits not yet included. We have a strong Pinoy org and we are very proud of our humble Pinoy education.Global ba kami.:) You be the judge.

[Dacs]

This is also true in my company (EPCM company) as well. Filipino engineers are placed in high regard by our peers.

[tophe_17]

That's nice to hear, Dacs.


Well, many of us here, think that the quality of education here in the Philippines is low; thus making them think that a degree from a foreign university is better than our top schools.

But more than that, I believe that for some reasons, studying in a foreign university, is a must. I'm in the Civil Engineering profession and having Concrete Technology as my interest, it's better to take it not here in the Philippines because we lack resources, data and facilities to make a thorough study of concrete. Japanese and European universities are well-known in the specialization on this area. The Philippines, unfortunately, has none. So its reasonable to really study abroad because of this lack of resources.

For some, they study abroad, so that when they get back here, they get higher paying jobs.

[blue_tracer]

certainly, there's a distinct advantage if an education is acquired abroad/overseas. i envy those intellectually gifted and financially capable pinoys who are lucky enough to study in countries like united states, england, and japan.

but it's still a case-to-case basis. in fact, i've heard that one of the construction managers in macau (a pinoy in his early 50's) who's looking after the building/erecting of some hotels and casinos receives around 12,000 u.s. dollars a month excluding bonus. he he he he.. does that not make him 'global' yet..?

i also work abroad and is surrounded by chartered engineers with different nationalities. some are hongkong-educated, some are us-educated, but most are london-trained. im only armed with my bs eng. degree and a prc license which is not honored here anyway.. ha ha ha.. crap, with my current job, i dont know what im doing. i just pretend i know but actually, i dont. ha ha ha.. and all these years they havent found it yet. im doing a houdini or copperfield in here. oh yeah, i think that's 'global' enough.

mabuhay pinoy! :rpflag:

[Aleancelo]

I'm not referring to technical courses, which are skills-based and mostly earned in the undergrad level. I'm referring to graduate courses like an MBA, MS, MA, PhD,DBA, Ed.D, etc..

[Gising]

I'm not referring to technical courses, which are skills-based and mostly earned in the undergrad level. I'm referring to graduate courses like an MBA, MS, MA, PhD,DBA, Ed.D, etc..

It's obvious.

They have the funds, the global connection, the materials/the facilities and the Nobel Prize winners/Field Medalists.

We have the brain power... but that's about it. Look. Even India and China has surpassed our local graduate research universites in so many fields. :eek:

Add to that the delusions of grandeur that we have for our respective LOCAL SCHOOLS. We live in a Third World Country with third world funding and facilites. But hey India and China are Third World. :lol:

[Gising]

That's nice to hear, Dacs.


Well, many of us here, think that the quality of education here in the Philippines is low; thus making them think that a degree from a foreign university is better than our top schools.

But more than that, I believe that for some reasons, studying in a foreign university, is a must. I'm in the Civil Engineering profession and having Concrete Technology as my interest, it's better to take it not here in the Philippines because we lack resources, data and facilities to make a thorough study of concrete. Japanese and European universities are well-known in the specialization on this area. The Philippines, unfortunately, has none. So its reasonable to really study abroad because of this lack of resources.

For some, they study abroad, so that when they get back here, they get higher paying jobs.

Yes.*okay*

[Gising]

I hope you won't accuse me of colonial mentality. Instead, let's not be hypocrites. Let's face the music and let's be realistic: Except for law and medicine, Philippine graduate degrees are still being held in low regard globally. I mean, GLOBALLY, in contrast to locally. That's G-L-O-B-A-L-L-Y. Got it? And when you say, globally, I repeat globally, we refer to the international arena. And I'm speaking based on my personal experience from my grad studies in the US (it's summer break right now). In fact, a bachelor's degree from Ox-Bridge or the Ivy League carries a much heavier weight than a PhD from UP, Ateneo, DLSU, UST, etc. which many Americans consider only as at par with their Division III universities. Of course, as a Pinoy, I felt insulted since I earned my degrees from two of these universities. However, as I have stated earlier, the only exceptions are law and medicine. Since I got my LLB from the State U, then I guess.... well. However, all other grad courses from the Philippines are fair game. We don't have to look that far. No less than President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo likes to portray herself as a Georgetown-educated economist even though she only studied there for a few years for her undergraduate degree. Not too many people know that she earned her doctorate from the UP School of Economics.

Not just law and medicine but nursing, accounting and some of those computer courses.:love:

It's good that you brought up this topic. *okay*

[wazdog]

A few possible reasons:
1. Earn better credentials
2. Experience a different culture
3. Learn more (?)
4. Easier (?)

[Aleancelo]

A few possible reasons:
1. Earn better credentials
2. Experience a different culture
3. Learn more (?)
4. Easier (?)

I agree with the first 3, but "easier?" Definitely not. Admission policies pa lang, competititive na.

[pumpysworld]

The Philippines will have to focus on maintaining local standards and making more money to meet those standards. Here's an example that I posted in another thread:

CHED requires a master's degree for college or university faculty (it should be a PhD) but only 25 percent of Filipino faculty have master's degrees and only 6 percent have PhDs (according to one PCER report). On top of that, graduate programs are experiencing many problems, from lack of library and other facilities to even cheating with theses and other requirements. Fixing this problem will involve a lot of money.

There are more problems and each one will involve lots of money, too. If we minimise corruption in government we might be able to double the national budget, but even a doubling in the education budget will just be enough to fix shortages in pre-tertiary education, from lack of books and classrooms to wages.

There's also a problem of being able to meet academic standards. What is not mentioned in some of the messages is that the drop out rate for engineering in the Philippines is around 50 percent, and passing rates are also low for many professions in board exams. Drop out rates may even be higher if some international standards are imposed.

In which case, the country should focus more on TESDA and technical and vocational training, together with reforms in pre-tertiary education.

[ziggyboy]

I started my undergrad in the Philippines (DLSU-Manila) but eventually finished my computer science degree in an Australian university. From personal experience there are 2 major reasons why one should go to a foreign university over one in the Philippines.

1. Better research output

Philippine universities use the same textbooks as foriegn universities, however I have noticed that undergraduates have poor research capabilities. I have a few friends who graduated with CS degrees from top Philippine universities and while we did similar subjects and used the same textbooks, their theses were nothing more than assignments from some of my subjects. Alam ko medyo mayabang for me to say this and I don't know about engineering theses but generally our IT projects in Australia are more complex. Some undergraduates have even published papers in conferences (alam ko sa Phils mga postgrads lang ang nagpupublish ng papers). Personally, code that my thesis group did were incorporated into actual commercial devices of Nortel Networks (www.nortel.com -- same owners ng Netgear). This is an undergraduate thesis. I remember a friend telling me about his thesis and most of it wasn't even actual research...but just a project involving a website with a database backend.

So ayun, siguro if we were tested based on studies learned from lectures and textbooks my Pinoy counterparts would do just as well, since like I said we use the same textbooks. It probably wouldn't matter if you don't work for a research company kasi pareho lang naman yung practical skills, pero foriegn educated graduates would probably fare better in research jobs.

2. Mature environment

Philippine colleges/universities treat undergrads like high school students. Daily attendance, discipline officers, etc. Almost all universities have what we call "uni bars" and we have alcohol (yes, beer!) served throughout the day. Over half of my subjects don't check attendance and yet 80% of students turn up for lectures. Sa Pinas, may bagyo lang, everyone rejoices. Kayo rin ang talo kasi kayo rin nagbabayad ng tuition.

I also call my lecturers by their first names. I don't say "sir" or "maam". I treat them as peers and get more respect from them than my Philippine lecturers. Medyo ma-ere mga lecturers sa Philippines. It's harder to talk to them if you're an undergrad but they're more professional if you're a grad student. Why can't they give the same respect to undergrads? We're all adults here.

I am nearing the end of my 3 week vacation here in Manila. A close friend runs a food stall inside DLSU-Manila and got the chance to observe the studetns there. Guards are so nice to staff and teachers but treat undergrads like little kids. Masungit, ma-ere din like the lecturers, and malakas mag power trip. This is why I loved my undergrad experience in Australia. I was treated like an adult.

---

All in all what I'm trying to say is that what one learns in a university is more than just the curriculum or the textbooks used. You have to experience it firsthand to appreciate it.

[MidwestEagle]

There's no question that graduate degrees from the Philippines can't compare. It's all about money for faculty salaries and research funding.

But I think that the top Philippine universities provide reasonable opportunities in math and the liberal arts.

I took both undergrad and Phd at top US institutions and there's no question that the opportunities for the most ambitious are greater in the States. But just as hard working students at fairly weak State schools can still learn a phenomenal amount, so have many Filipinos. The fact that Filipinos can get good jobs and that the top students can get admitted to good graduate programs in the US suggests that the undergrad gap is not infinite. [Of course, it's not like working with a Nobel laureate as an undergrad at Caltech or Princeton or Chicago, but then many students even at those top places don't take full advantage of the opportunities available to them!]

I truly feel sorry for the faculty at top Philippine schools, especially UP. Their facilities are inadequate and their salaries so low that they have little choice but to moonlight and consult to make ends meet. That a few continue to publish and do internationally respectable research is very admirable indeed.

A Filipino should think of his schools as equivalent to decent but "no prestige, little money" foreign schools. Limited perhaps, but providing opportunities to be grasped. Moreover, thanks to the Web, it's easier to get articles from abroad. Pity the poor students who toughed it out before modern databases.

[MidwestEagle]

I should add that the best few Philippine schools have an advantage that even wealthy, mid-tier State schools in the US don't: They are very selective in admission. And it is well-known that a great deal of learning comes from the quality of your peers. Certainly, UP, ADMU, and DLSU have a more academically serious mix of students -- on average -- than many large state schools excepting the best such as Berkeley, Michigan, UCLA, or Virginia. [No disrespect to other Phil schools. I just have less info about their academics.]

It's all about doing the best with the opportunities presented to you.

[pup2]

IMHO, facilities ang pinakamalaking diperensya. Sunod yung faculty but not by much. Pero may advantage din naman dito -- matututo ka to accomplish more with less samantalang sa iba, accomplish even more lang. :)

[MidwestEagle]

For many subjects -- especially at the undergrad level -- facilities don't matter too much. I met Russians who managed to acquire spectacular training in math and physics in run down schools. The humanities and many social sciences don't usually need high tech except for good books.

And you shouldn't romanticize the great researchers. Many of my worst teachers were among the most famous. Yes, you learned a lot if you wanted to. But oftentimes most of the learning came from doing problem sets and arguing with other bright students. And many productive scholars are horribly narrow and not helpful teachers, unless you actually have the opportunity to work closely with them on research projects. The greatest benefit came from watching how the Big Brains formulated problems, worked on solutions, and argued their ideas with other faculty. But that's something I've seen even at many "no prestige" schools with some very smart people.

[jerome_deric]

i think degrees from universities in g7 and other highly-developed nations get more credence from the global decision-makers.

what if the situation is like this: you will take all the courses in the philippines and will get the degree from a european university AND a philippine institution (2 degrees), will you study in the philippines? the degree given by the european university is recognized worldwide yet the instruction is delivered by the philippine counterpart because the CURRICULAR CONTENTS AND INSTRUCTIONAL APPROACH ARE SIMILAR

[lebron_paul]

I've been trying to identify universities in Europe that I have heard off and I can't enumate a lot. So, I thought only very few universities in Europe have attained global recognition.
The US has the hoarde of the best and quite well-known universities that has a global prestige and appeal.

[altair]

^

that is a matter of perception


U.S. Slide in World Share Continues as European Union, Asia Pacific Advance (http://www.sciencewatch.com/july-aug2005/sw_july-aug2005_page1.htm)


Over the last 15 years, the United States has seen its share of world output in science steadily decrease, while the collective shares of nations in the European Union and the Asia Pacific region have increased, according to a new Science Watch survey. The graph below (left) illustrates this trend, comparing percent share of papers for each year between 1990 and 2004. In the image below (right), separate graphs chart the decline in U.S. world share, and the concurrent advance of the other two regions, in three main physical-science fields: Physics, Engineering, and Materials Science.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/kwanghwamun/Science_watch_1.gif


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/kwanghwamun/Science_watch_2.gif

[fattybearyus]

^^ Let us face it. Philippines is too far behind to even compare it to our neighbors in Asia. What more in the US??

[Domiyes]

With my experience, it’s not studying abroad that actually pushed me to go out of the Philippines but the weakness of the Philippine industry. From a technical person’s personal point of view, there’s a great mismatch between graduates vs. opportunities in our country. Currently my boss is an alumnus of the top 13 university (wrt THES rankings). He believes in Pinoy engineers but still he concurs that the brain drain will continue because of the weakness of the Philippine industry.