Is Ateneo on the decline?

[JeoffDomingo]

Has Ateneo lost its relevance in the modern world because it is so weak in critical areas such as science and technology, compared to "peer" schools?

Is it possible for Ateneo to continue to be competitive as a major research university in the future, or is it destined to become a very high-end liberal arts school such as San Beda, Miriam and the like?


In anticipation of a few possible responses:

a) I know the "teaching" and "sense of community among students" at Ateneo are supposed to be good ... but I doubt any of this has much relevance for the overall "quality" of a major research university. After all, these things could be said for Miriam, San Beda, etc.

b) I know that Ateneo has recently invested $x million in a couple new science-tech facilities, but this isn't even on the same order of magnitude as what's been proposed by De La Salle (or what has been going on for years at UP, UST, San Carlos Cebu, MSU-Iligan, etc.).

c) This message is not intended as a flame.

[MidwestEagle]

The Philippines is a poor country and at the moment, no Philippine university is really top notch. All have to rethink their strategies and plan which areas they need to expand and which to cut back. For a long time, Ateneo seems to have preferred a strategy where it is closer to a top American Liberal Arts College than a first tier research university. It can probably do more, but it needs to be careful. Science is expensive and expansion without sufficient resources will lower quality.

This is not a crazy plan in a world where no Philippine school has millions of dollars to throw around.

Having said that, there is a payoff to developing in more technical areas -- whether science/engineering or technical social science. The Medical school sounds like a good, profitable idea.

But the really important question is how the UP can keep up with the top Asian national universities in the sciences. Liberal arts are much cheaper and Ateneo can survive nearly forever as the Philippine equivalent of Williams or Boston College. It would be nice to have a real Philippine Ivy League, but that ain't gonna happen till someone gets at least a 100 million dollars of endowment money.

[thermodynamics]

ateneo?
I think just like UP, growth lang yung declining, but still improving din..
Other asean universities are fast-improving to the point na na-overtake-an na nila ang UP...
For UP, reflective lang talaga ng poor budget allocation ng government sa SUC's kaya mabagal ang growth... but still improving considering the researches, PhDs and MS holders, student quality and book volumes.
For ateneo... I have no idea but I don't think ateneo is on the decline stage...

[grapes_of_]

will science and technology "giants" up and dlsu please ennummerate their recent breakthroughs?

[SUX2BÜ]

will science and technology "giants" up and dlsu please ennummerate their recent breakthroughs?

If 'ennummerate' were a word, yes, ateneo would be "on the decline."

:)

[twerpy_craphead]

It is a very high-end liberal arts school. It's been that for decades.

[jeffrey21]

will science and technology "giants" up and dlsu please ennummerate their recent breakthroughs?

opinyon lang po...

walang magagalit...
un sa two school, member sila ng mga international research university...sa case ng Lasalle, They are trying to become a leading research university in SEA. They integrated all their degree with research-based curriculum. Also, they are introducing learner-centered education. Plus, they have nice facilities and they have good curriculum in science and engineering with collaboration with other ASEAN university. Un Internet access, IVLE, my.lasalle, etc are good things in lasalle, na makakatulong to achive their plans. Matagal pa before they become a leading research university. And alam nilang matagal pa talaga at kulang din sila sa budget...As to UP, it is proven that UP can be the “big” thing in research here in the Philippine, kac patterned *** sa US university at state-funded kaya lahat ng public research are mostly done in UP. As to Ateneo, proven na mataas ang quality nila sa liberal arts, philosophy etc…di pa nga lang natin alam pagdating sa research in science and technology… :)

[aticus]

Wow. No flaming yet. :) This must be a record.

I teach here in Korea, and just recently taught in Thailand. I graduated from the Ateneo as well, so I have a few insights to share:

1) I think the idea of the Ateneo as a high-end liberal arts college is an accurate one. In spite of all the recent moves towards science, technology and management, I still think we are years behind even our own local science schools;

2) I believe that the Philippines in general is severely crippled by a myopic educational system, corrupt education officials, a massive brain drain and outdated syllabi. We are now not at the level of the top Thai schools (sad), and nowhere near the level of the top Korean schools (tragic).

In summary, I think the Ateneo's doing ok... if it wants to produce well-spoken "thinkers" who can sound opinionated and make comments about the world. ;) I think, however, that it is probably a good 10 years behind even the top Thai universities in terms of science, technology and/or management. We can't touch UP's science and tech programs, and we will definitely lag behind DLSU if we don't spend a HEAP of money soon on better facilities and better science and tech teachers and researchers.

Just my two bits. :D

[MidwestEagle]

aticus,

Your comments are quite sensible but I disagree slightly.

I did my secondary schooling in Ateneo, but my college and doctoral work in the US. It is not at all clear to me that doing science in a half-hearted manner would make sense for the Ateneo. It must either be done boldly -- spending big bucks -- or not at all. They should also keep the student quality high. Princeton has no Med School nor Law School. Harvard has only very limited engineering. Chicago is small and focused. Swarthmore and Williams are much better colleges than many state universities with a few strong researchers, and large numbers of programs but so many students that average quality is quite low.

I think it would be better for Ateneo to expand in core technical subjects that don't necessarily involve large facilities and labs and which complement Ateneo's strengths in business and law. I'm thinking they should be expanding in economics, mathematical finance and related studies, applied math, theoretical physics, rational choice political science, law and economics, computer science, and core biology and chemistry. These would be manageable and would keep quality focused. The biggest problem is that good faculty for these areas cost more than in the regular soc sci and humanities.

Ateneo's strength has also been the consistency of its student quality and its broad educational focus. It should expand on this without compromising its core mission.

[Bomber]

Judging from the thread topic itself and the bashing that Ateneo is getting, I think that Ateneo is actually progressing (as opposed to declining) relative to the other Philippine universities. The mere fact that non-Ateneans are bashing the Ateneo implies that the "competition" is feeling insecure and jealous of Ateneo's progress and developments, which is not atypical in our "crab mentality" infested society.

There are many reasons why many are jealous of the Ateneo. Ateneo is known for having the largest representation of Filipino students in the top U.S. business schools like Harvard, Wharton, etc. Ateneo is also known for being the only Asian university to achieve a finals birth in the World Debating Competitions, not to mention it's acknowledged as the top Asian school in debating. Ateneo also boasts of the highest average passing rate in the Bar exams for the past 14 years. Ateneo is the only Philippine school to have won the Microsoft Global Software Competition. Ateneo's reputation is not tarnished by boo-boos like those who are into over-expansion a la Jollibee and known for accepting students with fake PEPTCR certificates. Ateneo is known for being a school that attracts students with BOTH "money and brains" (while the other schools have these two qualities in a mutually exclusive mode). For a relatively small university, Ateneo has had an inordinately powerful influence on Philippine society in business, politics, and law. These and many more achievements make the Ateneo an object of envy by "lesser mortals," particularly those who are not good enough to pass ACET.

So... is Ateneo on the decline? Nahhhhh. On the contrary, the Ateneo is winning against its competition. Only people who are jealous of the Ateneo would like to believe the Ateneo is on the decline..... and this, unfortunately, is not a surprising attitude among Filipinos.

[pinkandwhite]

Judging from the thread topic itself and the bashing that Ateneo is getting, I think that Ateneo is actually progressing (as opposed to declining) relative to the other Philippine universities. The mere fact that non-Ateneans are bashing the Ateneo implies that the "competition" is feeling insecure and jealous of Ateneo's progress and developments, which is not atypical in our "crab mentality" infested society.

There are many reasons why many are jealous of the Ateneo. Ateneo is known for having the largest representation of Filipino students in the top U.S. business schools like Harvard, Wharton, etc. .

Di kaya ang dahilan nito e karamihan ng mga nagaaral sa pinapupuri mong unibersidad e may mga perang kaya gastusin sa labas ng ating bansa? Mga anak kaya sila ng mga magagaling nating mga pulitiko? Samantalang karamihan ng mga pilipino di makayang mag-aral ng kolehiyo o makakain man lang ng 3 beses sa isang araw .tsk tsk... Mabuti sana kung bumabalik yang mga sinasabing mong magagaling na Atenistang pinoy sa Pilipinas upang ibahagi ang kanilang mga natutunan pero ano? Halos lahat nananatili sa mga banyagang bansa mapa- atenista o hindi.

Sa tingin ko walang dahilan ang mga tao dito maiinggit sa mga atenistang katulad mo dahil kahit atenista ka pa parte ka pa rin ng mga pilipino na umaasang balang araw ay umasenso ang ating bansa!

Agila ka nga siguro. Mataas ang lipad, mataas ang ihi....:rolleyes:

MABUHAY ANG MENDIOLA!
IBAGSAK MGA ELITISTA!

[MidwestEagle]

I dont understand the mentality that turns a good, sensible discussion into a pissing contest.

But I will say that at least the Ateneo collects high tuition from the rich and gives scholarships to the poor. In contrast, the UP -- by allowing wealthy kids from Ateneo, DLSH, Xavier, PSHS, Assumption, etc. to enroll at highly subsidized prices -- is taking from the poor Pinoy taxpayer to give to the rich high school kids.

Hmm, a Marxist would say that by adopting a radical pose, Philippine elites at UP are objectively able to exploit the masses for their own benefit while keeping up the appearance of social concern.

Ok, I'll keep out of this discussion from now on.

[mac_bolan00]

what do you mean decline? it's rising. that's the PERFECT truth. :glee:

[Dacs]

I don't usually reply to flamebaits but I can't help but do on this occasion.

Bomber: With the way you portray Filipinos, you almost let me believe that you're not one. Pinoy ka din pare. Tandaan mo yan.

On topic: I'm in no position to tell, and I have to agree, this thread has flamebait written all over it. For the record though, I've been never envious of other schools. Why would I, or anyone for that matter, anyway?

[mac_bolan00]

^
finally an intelligent reply. people so love to answer difficult questions with personal anecdotes. as if they count for anything.

[thermodynamics]

AKo rin, i've never been envious with other schools especially in my college years. But only when I graduated I realized that there are some Jesuit-educated people who are not deserving of the quality of education (and the values) their school imparted to them. Not deserving in the sense that they act so unprofessionally and without any sign of urbanity. He's my boss, actually. But he didn't deny the fact that he is so envious with UP grads-one good thing he learned from his Alma Mater.

wala lang. non-sense din ba?

[zoman114]

decline? stats please? admu has 11 centers of excellence compared to 10 for dlsu, and well we can't argue the large # from UP ... admu and dlsu both have COEs in IT so we can't really say one is lagging behind in that area, if ever admu has proven to be very balanced when it comes to focusing on the various fields that have become in-demand while still remaining to be the leader in humanities/liberal arts.

i think it's quite unfair to stereotype admu as just an elitist school unless you've gone to admu yourself and seen the reality of the situation. it has a population as diverse as the next college/university, a lot of people from high-income brackets, and a lot from low-income brackets. it's hard to believe that considering the high-profile alumni and alumnae of the school, but these few do not dictate the reality of the whole/majority in admu.

ONE BIG FIGHT! :)

[Halikinu Eagle]

very well said

ONE BIG FIGHT!

[eurusd]

... while still remaining to be the leader in humanities/liberal arts.

huh?! not even the government's ched said it.

[brain dead]

huh?! not even the government's ched said it.

Another dolt who profers his 2-cents worth on something that he is remotely knowlegeable of. Sus pati flamebait pinapatulan.

[SUX2BÜ]

Is this some sort of QC phenomenon?

:lol:

[KuyaDanny]

They must be putting something in the water over there.

[SUX2BÜ]

Hey, is that supposed to be mud?

:laugh:

[eurusd]

Another dolt who profers his 2-cents worth on something that he is remotely knowlegeable of. Sus pati flamebait pinapatulan.

you are a firebug desperately trying to cinder a gridiron.

unless somebody here can be objective enough in claiming that ateneo is "the leader in humanities/liberal arts," your 2 cents remain worthless.

accordingto ched:

ateneo

philosophy (coe)
literature (coe)

ust

philosophy (coe)
literature (coe)

[vdiaz]

decline? stats please? admu has 11 centers of excellence compared to 10 for dlsu, and well we can't argue the large # from UP ... admu and dlsu both have COEs in IT so we can't really say one is lagging behind in that area, if ever admu has proven to be very balanced when it comes to focusing on the various fields that have become in-demand while still remaining to be the leader in humanities/liberal arts.

i think it's quite unfair to stereotype admu as just an elitist school unless you've gone to admu yourself and seen the reality of the situation. it has a population as diverse as the next college/university, a lot of people from high-income brackets, and a lot from low-income brackets. it's hard to believe that considering the high-profile alumni and alumnae of the school, but these few do not dictate the reality of the whole/majority in admu.

ONE BIG FIGHT! :)

Correction lang : DLSU has 14 COE/COD courses

Biology
Chemistry
Chemical Engineering (lone awardee in the Philippines)
Electronics and Communications Engineering
English
Filipino language
Mathematics
Mechanical Engineering (lone awardee in the Philippines)
Physics
Business Management
Economics
Civil Engineering
Industrial Engineering
Information Technology


Ateneo has 11 COE/COD

Biology
Chemistry
English
Mathematics
Literature
Philosophy
Physics
Psychology,
Sociology
Business
Information Technology

Take note that Ateneo and La Salle are both COE and COD in

1. Biology
2. Chemistry
3. English
4. Mathematics
5 Physics
6. Business
7 Information Technology

On the other hand

Ateneo is COE/COD in the following courses but not La Salle

1. Literature
2. Philosophy
3 Psychology
4. Sociology

UST has more COE/CODs than La Salle or Ateneo since they have more course that they offer.

UP is on top of the list as expected.

[alvin_cabal2000]

UST has more COE/CODs than La Salle or Ateneo since they have more course that they offer.

UP is on top of the list as expected.


So what are the pathbreaking research these COE of the two great universities have produced? (UP and UST)

Is the world listening?

Why are they not included in the latest world rankings?

[mac_bolan00]

...because they have far deeper throughts than some nitwit who does nothing but follow world rankings. think of it. that's all your education has taught you.

[cashwriters]

Maybe the only thing declining in this forum is the ability of trolls to come up with some better angle to get pageviews other than preying on people's protectiveness about their school's reputation.

[Dennis21]

So what are the pathbreaking research these COE of the two great universities have produced? (UP and UST)

Is the world listening?

Why are they not included in the latest world rankings?

I believe the world have benefited and will soon benefit from UP's researches.

The UP-Public Health, for instance, have developed the cure for skin cancer and the medicine will be distributed by a German pharmaceutical industry.

Other UP Colleges that have world-class researches are:
The National Institute of Physics
the Marine Science Institute
Rice Research Institute

[thermodynamics]

interesado ka ba alvin cabal sa mga researches na na-publish sa mga local at international publications from UP College of Eng'g? Punta ka sa UP, Eng'g libe... andun mga publications na may UP researches na napublish.
O kaya, magdept-to-dept ka sa eng'g... tabi-tabi lang naman sila, except for EEE, medyo malayo. sa National Eng'g Center din marami.

[babavoom]

magaling sa liberal arts ang ateneo. dun lang po. that's the opinion of many.

[southerncalif]

Judging from the thread topic itself and the bashing that Ateneo is getting, I think that Ateneo is actually progressing (as opposed to declining) relative to the other Philippine universities. The mere fact that non-Ateneans are bashing the Ateneo implies that the "competition" is feeling insecure and jealous of Ateneo's progress and developments, which is not atypical in our "crab mentality" infested society.

There are many reasons why many are jealous of the Ateneo. Ateneo is known for having the largest representation of Filipino students in the top U.S. business schools like Harvard, Wharton, etc. Ateneo is also known for being the only Asian university to achieve a finals birth in the World Debating Competitions, not to mention it's acknowledged as the top Asian school in debating. Ateneo also boasts of the highest average passing rate in the Bar exams for the past 14 years. Ateneo is the only Philippine school to have won the Microsoft Global Software Competition. Ateneo's reputation is not tarnished by boo-boos like those who are into over-expansion a la Jollibee and known for accepting students with fake PEPTCR certificates. Ateneo is known for being a school that attracts students with BOTH "money and brains" (while the other schools have these two qualities in a mutually exclusive mode). For a relatively small university, Ateneo has had an inordinately powerful influence on Philippine society in business, politics, and law. These and many more achievements make the Ateneo an object of envy by "lesser mortals," particularly those who are not good enough to pass ACET.

So... is Ateneo on the decline? Nahhhhh. On the contrary, the Ateneo is winning against its competition. Only people who are jealous of the Ateneo would like to believe the Ateneo is on the decline..... and this, unfortunately, is not a surprising attitude among Filipinos.
your post tells me you are an insecure and defensive being. just remember dlsu got level 4 accreditation 2 1/2 years ahead of yours and ranked best private university in your homeland. admu is not declining but it isn't moving making other schools catch up. animo UP!!!

[neoreo09]

old topic, old topic.

[oranges_of]

the topic is so funny!

ONE BIG FIGHT!!!

[nerd_'to]

i have always maintained that in the noble spirit of communism, ateneo should be at a sharp and steady decline for the next 20 years.

so the rest may catch up.

[Linna_rain]

it's a nonsense thing to talk about ateneo...or keep on bashing it...
obviously bashing won't help... very stereotype! :D

better study hard rather than blabbing out nonsense things if u consider urself a 'literate' one...

it doesn't matter wer u come from, *** matters is the attitude u have in ur life! u may have studied in la salle or wherever kung panget **** ang ugali mo at naninira ka ng kapwa mo d ba?*okay*

[oranges_of]

i don't subscribe to the popular belief that THE ATENEO's situation now is beyond redemption.

THE ATENEO will always be the NUMBER 1 University of the Philippines.

[kungpow]

After reading some of the posts...you know what...research can be expensive...but a lot of research in science and engineering need not be expensive (well, equipments are unavoidable). For example, the Ateneo Chemistry Department has been doing research on natural products such as coconuts and the like and its Physics department has been doing research on lenses. Some of those research works have been published internationally. The thing is, it need not be unaffordable...especially if the research is for the country's benefit.

[chip-L2]

It's interesting how people view their school's rankings. I think that the Ateneo is slowly expanding its science programs while maintaining its reputation in business and the arts. I haven't seen the overall strategy of the university but it is changing with the times. They were pruning down the liberal arts courses in favor of more practical courses.

It has now divided itself into several schools so that these schools can provide better support to the member departments.

When I was in the Ateneo Computer Science program, the department had no PhDs in CS. Now, it has several. The department even has a faculty member with a PhD from MIT (the one in Boston). I think that the Ateneo CS program is one of the leading CS departments in the country. Its graduates are well known in the industry. The department has close links to MS Philippines and that closeness could have been one of the reasons that its students got a global award from MS when MS was promoting its .Net infrastructure. I think the CS department has gone a long way from being a step child of the Mathematics department twenty years ago.

The Economics program, where I taught is slowly trying to upgrade. They have their own research center (ACERD) and they hired a well known economist (Cielito Habito) to provide a public face for the department. They have also added a PhD program. This department is rather small but its faculty does get published in US economic journals.

It would be instructive to see a ranking similar to FT's MBA rankings where schools are ranked by the weighted average of their graduates' salaries, student diversity, and academic reputation. However, the last time I saw a ranking of Philippine universities was when Asiaweek was still in publication.

Personally, I think that I had too much Philo, Theo, and Filipino subjects which I don't use in my professional life. However, it has allowed me to make a career switch so it's not so bad.

[HONESTY.]

i don't subscribe to the popular belief that THE ATENEO's situation now is beyond redemption.

THE ATENEO will always be the NUMBER 1 University of the Philippines.
yeah, only in your imagination. :lol:

[followyoudown]

Ateneo is also known for being the only Asian university to achieve a finals birth in the World Debating Competitions, not to mention it's acknowledged as the top Asian school in debating.

Um, just to correct the misconception.

Several other Asian universities have achieved a finals berth in the World Universities Debating Championships.

UPD has, the Singapore Institute of Management (which reached the Grand Finals. Ateneo hasn't) has, the National University of Singapore has, the Nanyang Technological University has, the Multimedia University has, the International Islamic University has. In fact, it was another Asian university that had two teams in the last 16 teams in a single year, somethign Ateneo hasn't been able to do.

This being said, I don't feel Ateneo is on a decline. (And they still have kick-*** debaters)

Looking at JG-SOM, its programs are actually (I was surprised myself when I figured this out for myself) quite cutting edge. Look at Wharton, Kellog, et al and you'll see some similarity in the programs.

Not to mention the SOSE's new course, BSM Applied Math, major in Mathematical Finance. Mathematical finance is a relatively new field, and an undergraduate degree in it is even newer. Only a few universities in the world have it as an undergraduate degree. Most of the others have it as a graduate program (usually called financial engineering). This program is actually quite useful. It gives one the extensive background an undergraduate degree brings (because let's face it. an undergraduate degree lets you cover more subjects than a graduate one), but at the same time, the masters degree that lets you compete for employment in the field. (Most of the quants, as the finance analysts are called, will probably be masters degree holders due to the aforementioned availability of it mostly as a graduate course)

Not to mention programs like SOMBA, et al. And the new program from SOM, Management of Technological Innovations. (I think this one's still in the works though)

[gerald_pirea]

Kapag Ateneo nagsalita kontra ang UP at La Salle
Kapag La Salle nagsalita kontra ang UP at Ateneo
Kapag UP nagsalita kontra ang La Salle at Ateneo

Ayaw magbigayan ha!

[mac_bolan00]

wrong, meat head. kapag UP nagsalita, kontra lahat ng hindi nakapasok sa UP.

[SUX2BÜ]

Isama mo na rin 'yung mga ayaw pumasok sa up-diliman.

:ayaw:

[d00mednow]

Depende kung ano ang sasabihin ng UPian... eh kung kabobohan ba at kakontra-kontra, bakit hindi? :naughty:

[Wez]

Isama mo na rin 'yung mga ayaw pumasok sa up-diliman.

:ayaw:

Let's face it. There are really many people who don't like to go to UP and we can't really fault them. If they can afford it and they have the brains, why settle for a public school. UP is a decent state school but its market is different from those of the other elite private schools like Ateneo, UST, DLSU, and UA&P.

[hacksaw]

Let's face it. There are really many people who don't like to go to UP and we can't really fault them.

Correct! You can't fault "others" for those dumb choices they make.;)

[Krayon]

P1: Ateneo is a liberal - arts style university. This is not to be argued with

P2: Liberal arts universities are pretty good.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

C: Ateneo's a pretty good university.

Research universities are good, but so are liberal-arts universities. Why don't people don't understand this? It's so simple.

The question under the topic head is Is Ateneo on the decline? Of course the topic starter made some wrong assumptions, but the sensible people have already corrected him. Ateneo never became a good university on the strength of its research, but on it's strong core and holistic education.

The question is whether Ateneo as a liberal-arts style university, declined on its holistic way of teaching? I may not have stated it 100%, but that's the question, and that's all it is.

It's a simple question - answer it! That is all anyone on this thread needs to do.

Krayon

[gerald_pirea]

kasi mundo mo umiikot sa UP... hindi mo naapreciate ang ibang schools...


wrong, meat head. kapag UP nagsalita, kontra lahat ng hindi nakapasok sa UP.

[HONESTY.]

Isama mo na rin 'yung mga ayaw pumasok sa up-diliman.

:ayaw:
who mostly have IQ below 90. :glee:

[HONESTY.]

Kapag UP nagsalita kontra ang La Salle at Ateneo

Ayaw magbigayan ha!

In the real world, the La Sallians and Ateneans do listen whenever UPians speak. But there are always exemptions like when you have guys like greenturd and atenean_blooded who can always come up with frenzied scenarios with their alternicks, the order of schools get mixed up a bit.

[HONESTY.]

Let's face it. There are really many people who don't like to go to UP and we can't really fault them. If they can afford it and they have the brains, why settle for a public school. UP is a decent state school but its market is different from those of the other elite private schools like Ateneo, UST, DLSU, and UA&P.


Let's face it, Wez, UP markets exclusively to the best and the brightest. It's a magnet for those who like academic challenge and those who have great personalities and remarkable achievements to contribute to the university. It's the school of choice for the high achievers and high school valedictorians and salutatorians as well as those graduates of Philippine Science, La Salle Greenhills, ISM, Brent, UPIS, Poveda and Ateneo. If you have an IQ below 100, why would you be attracted to UP? Common sense naman dyan dude...

[SUX2BÜ]

who mostly have IQ below 90. :glee:

Even worse if you have an IQ below 90 and you are the black ship of your family.

:)

[HONESTY.]

P1: Ateneo is a liberal - arts style university. This is not to be argued with

P2: Liberal arts universities are pretty good.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

C: Ateneo's a pretty good university.

Research universities are good, but so are liberal-arts universities. Why don't people don't understand this? It's so simple.

The question under the topic head is Is Ateneo on the decline? Of course the topic starter made some wrong assumptions, but the sensible people have already corrected him. Ateneo never became a good university on the strength of its research, but on it's strong core and holistic education.

The question is whether Ateneo as a liberal-arts style university, declined on its holistic way of teaching? I may not have stated it 100%, but that's the question, and that's all it is.

It's a simple question - answer it! That is all anyone on this thread needs to do.

Krayon
You did not read the threadstarter's question. He associates progress with research output in the sciences, tech and engineering. Great universities in the world are focusing on the sciences, tech and engineering. Even Harvard has acknowledged that and is now investing in these areas.

[HONESTY.]

kasi mundo mo umiikot sa UP... hindi mo naapreciate ang ibang schools...
Ako, naapreciate ko rin ang ibang schools or yung tinatawag nating "other schools". Nagkakagulo lang kung pilit ipasok ang school nya na mas magaling pa. Let's face it. May mas magaling pa ba sa UP dito sa Pinas? Come on. Be realistic naman kayo dyan.

[HONESTY.]

Even worse if you have an IQ below 90 and you are the black ship of your family.

:)

katulad mo. :rotflmao:

[SUX2BÜ]

Super taas po ng IQ at EQ ko eh at hindi po ako black ship ng pamilya ko.

At well-behaved po ako; hindi po ako nambabato ng eggs.

:)

[Krayon]

You did not read the threadstarter's question. He associates progress with research output in the sciences, tech and engineering. Great universities in the world are focusing on the sciences, tech and engineering. Even Harvard has acknowledged that and is now investing in these areas.

Of course I read it - how can I say the threadstarter made the wrong assumptions if I didn't read it? I suggest you look at page 1 again to see how his assumptions were undone...liberal arts universities are great at what they do, and that's a fact.

And no, not all universities in the world are focusing on sciences, technology and engineering - you have to be really ignorant to say that. Where do a lot of the top students in America studying? The Ivies. Where is the highest tuition averages in colleges in America? Liberal arts colleges, averaging at $40,000 per year vs. $20,000 average (not exact). What's the appeal of Oxford and Cambridge? It's high-quality teaching. Of course, these universities do a lot of cutting-edge research; however, always at the core of a great university is a strong core, excellent teaching, good environment and smart, engaging students. These are all things liberal arts colleges aim to do (and teach). And Harvard has always invested in science and technology, maybe more today. But it's peripheral to the maintenance of it's core - this is where a school's BRAND lies (UP, Ateneo, La Salle, etc.)

Is spending money on research good? Of course it is. But creating engaged, well-rounded individuals who are articulate and passionate about learning is the goal of ANY great university. No amount of scientific skill or intelligence can replace that.

Krayon

[Krayon]

HONESTY (et. al)

If you're really using you're common sense, then you must realize that you can NEVER equate whole school into single entities and argue and compare them like that is the single thing relevant to the discussion. UP (even just UP Dilliman) is such a huge school, with so many different programs, teachers, students, and facilities that are just not direcly comparable quid pro quo to Ateneo's (or any other school's) programs, teachers, students, and facilities.

UP markets exclusively to the best and the brightest
Are you God? How do you know? Do you measure every individual's intelligence level and compare it with their UPCAT results?

It's a magnet for those who like academic challenge and those who have great personalities and remarkable achievements to contribute to the university.
Woah, slow down buddy. Are you saying those who are not attracted to UP don't like academic challenge, have less-than-great personalities and have no contributions to speak of? I'm sure there are many counterexamples here (I can think of at least one right now).

It's the school of choice for the high achievers and high school valedictorians and salutatorians as well as those graduates of Philippine Science, La Salle Greenhills, ISM, Brent, UPIS, Poveda and Ateneo.
Again, there are counterexamples to this - as much as it is "common perception" to many (including me).

If you have an IQ below 100, why would you be attracted to UP? Common sense naman dyan dude
Because you are? Why would you be attracted to a Mercedes if you can't afford it? (end sarcasm)

Tis just shows how so few actually use their common sense.

[HONESTY.]

Krayon,

I know that Ateneo professors have a reputation for being great teachers in the local scene, but that is not relevant to my point and to the thread starter's. Although great teachers are certainly important, they do little for the prestige and influence of major universities compared to research. I'm sure that liberal arts schools (Miriam, San Beda, Assumption) has great teachers just like Ateneo, whereas perhaps UPD/DLSU/UST may not -- but does Ateneo aspire to be a high-level Miriam rather than one of the "major" players?

My point was that from the overall institutional perspective, the science and technology research at Ateneo does not approach that of what you'd consider its "peer" institutions.

[HONESTY.]

HONESTY (et. al)

UP markets exclusively to the best and the brightest
Are you God? How do you know? Do you measure every individual's intelligence level and compare it with their UPCAT results?

You certainly don't need to be God to know that fact. If you're a Filipino yet you're absolutely clueless about that fact... it's either you're VERY ignorant or you're just plain stupid.



It's a magnet for those who like academic challenge and those who have great personalities and remarkable achievements to contribute to the university.
Woah, slow down buddy. Are you saying those who are not attracted to UP don't like academic challenge, have less-than-great personalities and have no contributions to speak of? I'm sure there are many counterexamples here (I can think of at least one right now).

Maybe. But it does not in anyway refute my earlier statement that "UP is a magnet for those who like academic challenge and those who have great personalities and remarkable achievements to contribute to the university." Now my question to you is, do you not agree to that statement?



It's the school of choice for the high achievers and high school valedictorians and salutatorians as well as those graduates of Philippine Science, La Salle Greenhills, ISM, Brent, UPIS, Poveda and Ateneo.
Again, there are counterexamples to this - as much as it is "common perception" to many (including me).

Maybe. But again, it does not in anyway distroy my point that, UP is the school of choice for the high achievers and high school valedictorians and salutatorians..."


If you have an IQ below 100, why would you be attracted to UP? Common sense naman dyan dude
Because you are? Why would you be attracted to a Mercedes if you can't afford it? (end sarcasm)
No, because you are.



Tis just shows how so few actually use their common sense.
I'd like to include you to my long list of Ateneans who do not use their common sense.

[HONESTY.]

I think most of the responses on this thread (except for a few with common sense) have misinterpreted my original point. I was never arguing that Ateneo students (undergrad or grad) don't have a good, nurturing environment for learning. In many ways, Ateneo may be better than San Beda, Miriam, Assumption, etc in these respects.

But other smaller schools offer all of those things too, and perhaps even better than Ateneo. Of course Ateneans will have access to fine research labs -- for 99% of undergrads (more or less), it won't make any educational difference whether they work in Ateneo labs or UP labs (or Sa Beda labs, for that matter). But teaching and “having a strong core, excellent teaching, good environment and smart, engaging students” have very little to do with the overall quality of an institution. Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge, Berkeley, Stanford, Princeton, MIT, CalTech, Imperial, Peking, Tokyo, NUS are some of the greatest universities on earth and all of them are investing heavily on science, tech and engineering.

My point was that I suspect that Ateneo's overall "quality" and "relevance" may be at risk based on the direction that Ateneo has been taking in recent decades, compared to that of its competitors (DLSU, UST, etc). A couple people wrote that Ateneo has a big funds and has invested several millions in new science/technology facilities. Those are true, but honestly those investments/resources/focus pale in comparison to what its competitors (even schools like USC/MSU-IIT/Silliman ... let alone UP/DLSU/UST) are doing. And by my interpretation, those competitors have been doing it for decades before Ateneo even appeared to realize that it was falling behind...

[LeoNell_Mercado]

When it comes to science, tech and engineering... AdMU eats the dirt off UP's shoes. :lol:

[gerald_pirea]

sige pakamatay ka sa UP mo... nagresearch ka na ba about sa ibang schools? kung magsalita ka akala mo alam mo lahat, kaya mong pataubin ang lahat ng schools... ganyan ba ang tinuro sa inyo sa UP? alam mo pag minsan nga yung other schools pa ang nag-top sa board and bar exams... wag kang maging masyadong confident... maitanong ko lang... ano ba nangyari saiyo after graduation???

Ako, naapreciate ko rin ang ibang schools or yung tinatawag nating "other schools". Nagkakagulo lang kung pilit ipasok ang school nya na mas magaling pa. Let's face it. May mas magaling pa ba sa UP dito sa Pinas? Come on. Be realistic naman kayo dyan.

[HONESTY.]

sige pakamatay ka sa UP mo... nagresearch ka na ba about sa ibang schools? kung magsalita ka akala mo alam mo lahat, kaya mong pataubin ang lahat ng schools... ganyan ba ang tinuro sa inyo sa UP? alam mo pag minsan nga yung other schools pa ang nag-top sa board and bar exams...

Hindi ko kaya "pataubin" ang lahat ng schools, pero kayang "pataubin" ng UP anong mang school meron dito sa Pinas.

In the Philippines, UP is in a class of its own... walang worthy rival... lahat distant competitor... and any educated person would easily accept that as fact.


wag kang maging masyadong confident... maitanong ko lang... ano ba nangyari saiyo after graduation???
marami. and like any UP grad, I think that based on my age bracket, I belong to the top 1-2% of the most successful guys both financially and socially. Ikaw, anong nangyari sayo? :naughty:

[zacharaiolsen]

may mga eskwelahan kase rito sa pinas na dinadala ang estudyante sa pangalan ng skul = malaking tuition, mahirap na entrance test, may suporta sa gobyerno, etc. pero pag graduate, mas mahusay pa pala yung galing ng hindi masyadong kilalang eskwelahan.

sa liberal arts kase magaling ang ateneo, kelangan lang **** nila ng mahabang panahon para gumaling rin sa agham.

[HONESTY.]

sa liberal arts kase magaling ang ateneo, kelangan lang **** nila ng mahabang panahon para gumaling rin sa agham.

Based on your words above, what can you say about the level of Ateneo's science, tech and Eng'g program? Pwede na ba ilaban sa mga schools like Silliman, USC at MSU-Iligan?

[Hungry Necro]

I don't think that the quality of an Ateneo education is declining.

[iRebirth]

i think ADMU's science and engineering programs are growing.

In recent years, they've added ECE and Computer Engineering in their stable of college majors.

The fact that there is expansion demonstrates that ADMU is not on the decline.

Although, tama ang mga nagsasabing marami pang kakaining bigas ang ateneo.

As of now, hindi ko na nga makita why I came to the point of making ADMU my first choice, over UP and DLSU.

[KuyaDanny]

I don't think that the quality of an Ateneo education is declining.

And the quantity of those trying to get an Ateneo education is definitely not declining.

[SUX2BÜ]

But KuyaDanny, it's about quality not quantity.

:laugh:

[pumpysworld]

You don't need a university for liberal arts education. Usually, universities have specialists and research facilities like expensive laboratories and large libraries.

You don't need these for liberal arts. At the very least, master teachers or people with master's degrees are desirable, but anyone with a teaching certificate can teach any of the liberal arts subjects.

Liberal arts don't focus on upper-division subjects but foundational courses. These don't require large university libraries but textbooks and basic readings and laboratories. Research isn't required for this type of education, and it is normally taught in small four-year, junior, preparatory, or even community colleges. In many cases, part of liberal arts education is already taught in high school, or is taught before university (as in a junior or preparatory college). Finally, liberal arts education leading to a degree usually involves four years of foundational subjects (everyone takes the same subjects) leading to only one or two degrees (usually AB Liberal Arts).

Perhaps the best system for the Philippines is to strengthen primary and secondary education and teach part of liberal arts there. The rest can only be taught through continuing education or through support for local cultural institutions. If that's not enough, and if the budget allows for it, the country can add one more year of high school (since it only has around ten years of mandatory pre-university education compared to twelve or thirteen years for Asian counterparts) and make it similar to the Singaporean junior college (JC).

For work, instead of an expensive university degree, the country can probably emphasize TESDA and come up with something similar to the Australian TAFE (which is taken during the last year of high school). From there, the high school graduate should be sufficiently skilled and can work right away. For further training, he can attend various vocational and teachnical institutions and choose from different certificate and diploma programs. Of course, if he's not interested in any of these, he can choose to take a four-year liberal arts program in a local college.


P1: Ateneo is a liberal - arts style university. This is not to be argued with

P2: Liberal arts universities are pretty good.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

C: Ateneo's a pretty good university.

Research universities are good, but so are liberal-arts universities. Why don't people don't understand this? It's so simple.

The question under the topic head is Is Ateneo on the decline? Of course the topic starter made some wrong assumptions, but the sensible people have already corrected him. Ateneo never became a good university on the strength of its research, but on it's strong core and holistic education.

The question is whether Ateneo as a liberal-arts style university, declined on its holistic way of teaching? I may not have stated it 100%, but that's the question, and that's all it is.

It's a simple question - answer it! That is all anyone on this thread needs to do.

Krayon

[pumpysworld]

I order to determine whether education is declining, one has to look at several factors, such as

1. the number of volumes (and quality of such) in a library; usually, universities have hundreds of thousands (sometimes, a million or more) volumes and other materials

2. the quality of the laboratories and funding levels;

3. the amount spent on research funding and research output (e.g., number of published articles, etc.), further education for staff (e.g., no. of PhDs and the schools where they studied), etc.; the level of research of students (undergrad and grad) should also be included;

4. student admission standards (e.g., test results of students in international-standard tests and the percentage of those admitted to the university);

5. job quality (e.g., funding for faculty and student projects and studies, retention rates for faculty and students);

and so on.

It is possible that given these factors all Philippine schools are on the decline. On top of that, they are likely doing badly compared to Asian counterparts.

[kungpow]

ateneo is a very holistic university. the science and engineering programs are top-notch. i find it funny how people conclude that ateneo is purely a liberal-arts university based on the opinion of the many. what a fallacy! harharhar

[galileo]

ateneo is a very holistic university. the science and engineering programs are top-notch.


:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

[HONESTY.]

And the quantity of those trying to get an Ateneo education is definitely not declining.
that's because the quantity of ateneo students turned down by UP is growing.

[KuyaDanny]

But KuyaDanny, it's about quality not quantity.

:laugh:

With the population growing at the current rate, and the supply of quality brainpower still being depleted by outward migration, it has to be about both.

[southerncalif]

that's because the quantity of ateneo students turned down by UP is growing.
so very true

[stepehenyan@12]

maybe it's because ateneo's matriculation is expensive compared to other universities.

from what i heard strict sila sa academics and ateneo takes their academics seriously. di sila manghihinayang magkickout ng estudyante me kakilala sister ko di nakatagal sa ateneo, premed course kinuha sa ateneo and then nung lumipat sa university ng sis ko,kapareho din ng course nung kinuha sa ateneo.

mas prefer na kumuha ng nursing degree ang mga enrollees because it's a stepping stone to work abroad! I don't know kung me nursing course ang ateneo.

wala na yung dati na kaya ka kumukuha ka ng course kasi yun ang hilig mo. ngayon more on the economical aspect that they need to take this course so they could work abroad and earn money. kung meron man siguro dahil mayaman sila they could go back to the u.s. and work. so di prublema pumili ng course na interesado sila.

another reason could be is ateneo doesn't want to market itself as a business enterprise they take pride on their academics. of course they really can't help kung mahal matriculation ksi para malaki sahod ng teacher para yung teacher di aalis sa kanila. unlike some university i know na pinipirata nila teacher by offering huge sum of money kasi nangyari din sa university namin sabagay kapabayaan din ng university kung bakit nawawala yung mga prof at lumilipat di nila inaalagaan.

kahit noon pa very lowkey ang ateneo in terms of academics parang the few and the proud. eto lang pag nagkakaroon ng UAAP na nagkakaroon ng rivalry ateneo and lasalle sa ka lang sila nababalita.

ewan ko lang if the school has the same principles before sa mga naririnig ko sa mga estudyante na nagaaral pag bagsak ka bagsak ka kahit anak mayaman ka pa. kakilala ko dati highschool ateneo pinagrepeat ng 3rd year nalulong sa basketball isip ko me pera naman sila bakit di nila sinuhulan o pinakausapan, marunong naman sya di ka rin yata tatagal sa ateneo kung
tatamad ka! yun din sabi nung isa nakausap ko na estudyante star section pa yun nagkakatamaran na nung pa graduate ng highschool he's probably a resident doctor or a consultant by now. I heard UP med sya.

analysis ko lang po to! don't take it as if i was bashing your school lagi ako nagswimming dati dyan sa gradeschool every saturday when i was young entrance fee l 7.00 pesos dati pag dating ng 12 me break magresume sila ng one in the afternoon swimming labas masok ako dyan sa ateneo dati.

[thermodynamics]

ateneo is noty on the decline...
kase prof don galing UP... pinirata...
kase curriculum nila... katulad sa UP... ginaya...
kase students don, karamihan.. UPCAT flunkers.... haha

Joke!

S&T of Ateneo is slowly but surely on its way to be one of the best in the country... 5-10 years lang... mas magaling pa ito sa UST at DLSU.
Di na nito kayang talunin ang UP... but it doesnt mean on the decline na sila.

=P

[zacharaiolsen]

people, wag na mag-away pls, tanggapin nyo na lang ang mga estudyante nila, tatak na nila yung sobra sobra ang tingin sa sarili (wala naman sa lugar) / kokontrahin ang lahat (para kakaiba) / feeling lahat ng tao sa paligid mas obobs sa kanya (di naman), feeling laging tama (kahit mali), hindi maka-tanggap ng pagkatalo (kahit nandaya na), kelangan pa bang kabisaduhin yan?? mataas ang IQ, negative ang EQ.

hindi naman siguro ganun ang turo sa kanila, ganun lang talaga pag naging estudyante ka dun, dun na lang halos iikot ang buhay mo, bababa ang tingin mo sa iba, wala ng tataas at gagaling pa kundi ang skul mo lang, lahat ng bagay na pinaguusapan ikokonekta mo sa pinakamamahal at pinakapinagmamayabang mong skul at entrance exam nito, mabanggit mo lang ito, sobrang saya mo na.

yan lang naman napansin ko sa kanila, sariling experience. pero hindi ko nilalahat.

[yaffa]

i don't think that "decline" is the appropriate term, "too traditional" most probably.

[pumpysworld]

There are different meanings of "university." One is a research institution (based on the German model), which explains the large library and laboratories, PhD requirement for professors, the bachelor's degree (which was traditionally granted only after completing research), research and support staff (which uses a bulk of tuition), and the absence of technical and vocational training like management and computer programming (which don't require research). Another is any institution composed of many departments and programs and that meets government requirements.

The first definition is practical because it justifies the need for research facilities and staff which take up a large portion of expenses. (For example, it is too expensive and impractical for a PhD to teach freshman biology in a university. That should be taught together with other subjects in high school or junior college. The starting subjects in university are usually on the intermediate level.)

Vocational and technical programs like commerce can be moved to institutions which don't have extensive research facilities but may require support from industries which will rely on them. Also, this implies that there should be no such thing as a liberal arts university because the first phrase ("liberal arts") implies not specializing in any field while the second ("university"), given the first definition above, implies the opposite.

Usually, liberal arts is taught in a college, where students take core subjects for two to four years leading to either a liberal arts degree or the equivalent. In a university, students take only a term or two of prerequisites (all core subjects are taught in a preparatory college prior to entry to a university) followed by three years of major subjects and research. Those interested in business and applications usually study in institutes and training centers.

ateneo is a very holistic university. the science and engineering programs are top-notch. i find it funny how people conclude that ateneo is purely a liberal-arts university based on the opinion of the many. what a fallacy! harharhar

[pumpysworld]

All I know is that all Philippine schools (even UP) perform poorly against Asian competitors. For example, one UP professor reported that the research output of UP is only a quarter of that of the NUS.

Hindi ko kaya "pataubin" ang lahat ng schools, pero kayang "pataubin" ng UP anong mang school meron dito sa Pinas.

In the Philippines, UP is in a class of its own... walang worthy rival... lahat distant competitor... and any educated person would easily accept that as fact.



marami. and like any UP grad, I think that based on my age bracket, I belong to the top 1-2% of the most successful guys both financially and socially. Ikaw, anong nangyari sayo? :naughty:

[pumpysworld]

As I understand the situation, UP is the first choice for high school graduates simply because it has the lowest tuition among the top schools. Also, I get this feeling that given opportunities the best Filipino students will probably study abroad.

Let's face it, Wez, UP markets exclusively to the best and the brightest. It's a magnet for those who like academic challenge and those who have great personalities and remarkable achievements to contribute to the university. It's the school of choice for the high achievers and high school valedictorians and salutatorians as well as those graduates of Philippine Science, La Salle Greenhills, ISM, Brent, UPIS, Poveda and Ateneo. If you have an IQ below 100, why would you be attracted to UP? Common sense naman dyan dude...

[pumpysworld]

I found out that professors of these top schools come from the same faculty group. Some transfer from one university to another while others even teach in more than one university. Several even graduate from one school and then teach in another.

Also, I do not know if there is such a thing as a "major" player in the Philippines as all Philippine schools do very poorly on many levels compared to Asian competitors.

Given that, I think what we should wonder about isn't why one school is in decline but why all Philippine schools are in decline. This is tragic because several decades ago students from Southeast and East Asian countries like Thailand, Indonesia, and even South Korea studied in Philippine universities.


Krayon,

I know that Ateneo professors have a reputation for being great teachers in the local scene, but that is not relevant to my point and to the thread starter's. Although great teachers are certainly important, they do little for the prestige and influence of major universities compared to research. I'm sure that liberal arts schools (Miriam, San Beda, Assumption) has great teachers just like Ateneo, whereas perhaps UPD/DLSU/UST may not -- but does Ateneo aspire to be a high-level Miriam rather than one of the "major" players?

My point was that from the overall institutional perspective, the science and technology research at Ateneo does not approach that of what you'd consider its "peer" institutions.

[pumpysworld]

From what I know, compared to Asian competitors, Philippine research labs and libraries are lacking, and that our best facilities are average. In which case, I don't know how you came to the conclusion that the amounts spent on research facilities by many top Philippine universities is substantial. I think we rely heavily on donations from the private sector (which is often just enough for buildings and some scholarships) and from foreigners.

I think most of the responses on this thread (except for a few with common sense) have misinterpreted my original point. I was never arguing that Ateneo students (undergrad or grad) don't have a good, nurturing environment for learning. In many ways, Ateneo may be better than San Beda, Miriam, Assumption, etc in these respects.

But other smaller schools offer all of those things too, and perhaps even better than Ateneo. Of course Ateneans will have access to fine research labs -- for 99% of undergrads (more or less), it won't make any educational difference whether they work in Ateneo labs or UP labs (or Sa Beda labs, for that matter). But teaching and “having a strong core, excellent teaching, good environment and smart, engaging students” have very little to do with the overall quality of an institution. Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge, Berkeley, Stanford, Princeton, MIT, CalTech, Imperial, Peking, Tokyo, NUS are some of the greatest universities on earth and all of them are investing heavily on science, tech and engineering.

My point was that I suspect that Ateneo's overall "quality" and "relevance" may be at risk based on the direction that Ateneo has been taking in recent decades, compared to that of its competitors (DLSU, UST, etc). A couple people wrote that Ateneo has a big funds and has invested several millions in new science/technology facilities. Those are true, but honestly those investments/resources/focus pale in comparison to what its competitors (even schools like USC/MSU-IIT/Silliman ... let alone UP/DLSU/UST) are doing. And by my interpretation, those competitors have been doing it for decades before Ateneo even appeared to realize that it was falling behind...

[dirt_lap]

S&T of Ateneo is slowly but surely on its way to be one of the best in the country... 5-10 years lang... mas magaling pa ito sa UST at DLSU.
Di na nito kayang talunin ang UP... but it doesnt mean on the decline na sila.

=P


5-10 years surely wouldn't be enough. the ateneo has been in existence for over 150 years yet it has already been overtaken by la salle, an institution which is less than a hundred years old. dlsu and ust are expanding fast and it will be difficult for the ateneo to catch up unless the alumni provide help.

[pumpysworld]

I think those universities are expanding only in terms of enrollment and facilities like computers, but not in terms of student selectivity, faculty performance, library size, and even funding for research. In general, all Philippine colleges and universities are experiencing trouble competing against Asian counterparts.

5-10 years surely wouldn't be enough. the ateneo has been in existence for over 150 years yet it has already been overtaken by la salle, an institution which is less than a hundred years old. dlsu and ust are expanding fast and it will be difficult for the ateneo to catch up unless the alumni provide help.