On the CAT and ROTC Programs

[gundam]

What can you say about these programs? Do you think that they are still pertinent to secondary and tertiary education?

[topnotch97]

Yes.

next question please.

[advancement]

Yes. Magandang paraan turuan ang kabataan maging makabayan at madisiplina. Unfortunately, hindi naiimplement ng maayos kaya dapat improve-in.

[kostkakid]

they are a waste of time, as well as imoral in a free society.
what I can't understand is:
1) why this topic gets so few replies (in the past there would be dozens or hundreds of replies
2) why some colleges still force ROTC (Ateneo de Manila), when they are not required to do so.

[Ischaramoochie]

CAT is good, just like scouting. it encourages camaraderie, teamwork, loyalty and obedience.

Whether ROTC is good is still questionable. the ROTC program was established after the war to serve as a backup Corps in case the AFP loses all its soldiers and be left with only civilians. seeing the way with which the ROTC cadets are trained and treated, i'm doubtful if we could win a war just be being the fastest soldiers which can dis/assemble an M16 rifle or the best marchers there are. not to mention the most patient sitters. so unless we REALLY train ROTC cadets in the way they should be trained, i'd rather go for community service.

[kostkakid]

this is one way in where we should follow the USA.
their ROTC is voluntary (really voluntary, where no colleges force it) Students are given free tuition and other incentives to join.

CAT could easily be replaced with a voluntary program modelled after their JROTC. That way those interested in military type of career would have a head start.

I don't see any need for forced community service. The Spanish tried it (polo), the Japanese tried it and now we are forcing it on ourselves. Gives real community service a bad name. and can cause resentment.

[advancement]

Originally posted by kostkakid
they are a waste of time, as well as imoral in a free society.
what I can't understand is:
1) why this topic gets so few replies (in the past there would be dozens or hundreds of replies
2) why some colleges still force ROTC (Ateneo de Manila), when they are not required to do so.

NSTP is a REQUIRED COURSE for both male and female college students. They can choose ROTC or CWS. NSTP is good because everyone gets a chance to serve the country either way.

[kostkakid]

Ateneo and probably many others do not give the 3 options as the law intended. Many are forced into the ROTC part.

the is nothing wrong with community service but it should not be forced. This leads to abuse and corruption.
Plus some colleges just turn the students into unpaid metro aids.
That should not be the result.

[advancement]

You should be free to choose the other programs if you want. Nobody can force anybody into one program.

Plus, "unpaid metro aides" should not be the way to look at it. Exclusive school students can't even clean their own rooms. Sweeping the streets is a good learning experience for you as an Atenean. It can make a lot of people realize how hard it is to clean up garbage that they would refrain from littering for the rest of their lives.

Tapos na ako ng ROTC pero may maganda akong suggestion sa kanila na Pasig River cleanup. I suggest you sign up for that kapag natuloy.

[kostkakid]

what about the constitution?
it says no form of community service shall be imposed except as
punishment for a crime.

And Ateneo doe force students into ROTC, which is why I won't be
attending there

[Introvert_S]

are you reall sure about this? the NSTP program is less strenuous than the ROTC and I believe that NSTP is being implemented across all schools

[advancement]

Originally posted by kostkakid
what about the constitution?
it says no form of community service shall be imposed except as
punishment for a crime.

There's a clause there about service. The judicial branch wouldn't approve it if it isn't legal. They have more training and experience in law then you.


And Ateneo doe force students into ROTC, which is why I won't be
attending there
PEx cannot help you with that issue. Take it up with DECS.

[kostkakid]

Ateneo forces 350 freshmen to join ROTC so they can maintain
their Cadet corps; if they did not force it their would not be enough selecting the military option. This was certainly not what the NSTP law intended.

check out atenista.net

[Adroth]

Quotas are an efficient way of ensuring a balanced NST program.

BTW, two Ateneos have already stopped offering ROTC. Its a good thing Ateneo de Manila and Xavier University ROTC units are still doing well. No word on Ateneo de Zamboanga though.

[kostkakid]

the law does not mention quotas, and many schools have dropped the ROTC component. And if the units are doing well only because of force it defeats the whole purpose.

[Adroth]

Originally posted by kostkakid
the law does not mention quotas, and many schools have dropped the ROTC component. And if the units are doing well only because of force it defeats the whole purpose.

The law did not forbid the use of quotas either.

The objective of the law is not to let kids off the hook. Its just to provide alternatives. Quotas make sure that each NSTP component is viable.

[advancement]

Good points Adroth, that makes a lot of sense. Mabuhay ka pare ko.

[kYuPoL]

I woulda liked ROTC... if we were trained properly like a soldier... firing guns, commando crawling, unarmed combat... that would be great... *okay* and not just marching and standing in the halls like idiots... and not just being herded to some place... by barking officers as if we are prisoners of war... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well that was DLSU ROTC... :D Ang alam ko, pinakabrutal ay sa U.P... Mas tratong prisoner of war ka daw...

[kostkakid]

the objective of the law was to give a choice; if that choice is made by the school and not the student doesn't that defeat its purpose. and in the end quotas enforced by a few schools will not work. students will eventually gravitate to those schools without quotas.
by the way, what other schools have quotas? everyone knows about Ateneo as they are quite open about it.

[Adroth]

The objective of the law is to make the youth understand that they have to take part in nation building -- they they cannot just take from the country and not give anything back. Its about doing what you SHOULD do; not what you WANT to do.

We can't all be soldiers or civic workers; we need an mix of each. Hence the importance of quotas.

So, you are saying that you want to turn your back on the undeniable, unmistakable, lifelong, advantages of an Atenean education because you don't like Atenean NSTP (which is really only one Saturday each week for two school years). Sacrifice a long term benefit, to gain a very very short term advantage.

Well . . . those are your priorities.

[Introvert_S]

Originally posted by kYuPoL
Ang alam ko, pinakabrutal ay sa U.P... Mas tratong prisoner of war ka daw...

true. brutal talaga. especially if you belong to the Honor Guards. kawawa ka pag MS 11 ka. haay, remember those hot Sundays (sometimes, Saturdays and Wednesdays). Parang naaamoy ko pa rin ang Sunken Garden and DMST Complex….

…walang-wala ang NSTP sa ROTC kung hirap ang paguusapan. Tiyagain mo na lang yan kasi 1 taon lang yan.

[cogstag]

Originally posted by kYuPoL
I woulda liked ROTC... if we were trained properly like a soldier... firing guns, commando crawling, unarmed combat... that would be great... *okay* and not just marching and standing in the halls like idiots... and not just being herded to some place... by barking officers as if we are prisoners of war... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well that was DLSU ROTC... :D Ang alam ko, pinakabrutal ay sa U.P... Mas tratong prisoner of war ka daw...

are you a current midshipman/midshipwoman? are you in any Special support unit?

[kYuPoL]

are you a current midshipman/midshipwoman? are you in any Special support unit?

The question is... were... :lol:

******... tama na pagpipilosopo... anyway, nung high school ako, nag COCC training ako... para maging cadet officer. COCC training was ok... trained to fire guns...

Eh nung college ako, naging regular unit nalang ako... akala ko were also gonna fire weapons and crawl and shlt... just like what the ordinary cadets in our school were also made to do... :(

Atsaka... anhirap na eh... college is different from high school... college aint no joke... Uugh... papasok ka 8 ng umaga tapos dadating na ako ng bahay 11:00 pm na... sa kakagawa ng machine problem... na hindi ko basta basta magagawa kase di ko alam kung paano gawin... :(

Hay nako...

[tuna in water]

Originally posted by kYuPoL
Eh nung college ako, naging regular unit nalang ako... akala ko were also gonna fire weapons and crawl and shlt... just like what the ordinary cadets in our school were also made to do... :(

iha/ or iho/ o kung ano ka man, sayang at hindi ka nakaenrol ngayong term.. mayroon na kasing firing ang mga midn/midwn ngayon.. this saturday nga ay zeroing na sila and the next two saturdays will be the actual firing.. pero kung gusto mo talaga magpapaputok e di enrol ka ulit! :D

[advancement]

si kyupol siguro naging kadete between the mid-90s to the early years of the millennium. mula noong may namatay kasi noong mid '90s sumobra ang higpit ng dlsu admin sa rotc kaya sobrang restricted ng activities. can't blame them kung puro "patayo tayo" ang ginagawa nila. mabuti ngayon at bumabalik balik na sa dati ang sigla ng military training sa dlsu rotc lalo na kaunti lang ang kadete. mas maganda nga eh dahil wala yung mga "excess baggage" na mga "napilitan lang". Ngayon, ROTC talaga pinili nilang NSTP component kaya enthusiastic volunteers halos lahat ng tao sa unit. This makes the training move faster resulting in more activities covered such as weapons firing and other real military stuff. suportado ko din kung mag implement ng quota system para level ang playing field ng 3 NSTP components. maganda din ito sa diversity ng nalalaman ng student population ng DLSU.

[tuna in water]

hear hear!!

[cogstagg]

tingin ko recent midshipman/woman lang si kyupol. last term ryt? and CCS ka malamang... bihira sa mga sa ENG ang gumawa ng machine projects... well, dapat nag special unit ka if you wanted more of ROTC... regular ka e, MEDYO hindi nabibigyan ng pansin kasi yun *** mga kadalasang maarte at walang pakialam sa training. parang siopao, pag regular, maliit, konti ang laman at mura. pag special, may itlog na maalat, maraming sahog at mahal. parang ganun ang silogism hehe. at AGTI ata nun, kaya syempre focus ng officers sa mga special units. but just to clarify, walang priority-priority, lahat pantay pantay regular man o SSU... except the light duties and the athletes... well yun ang mga excess baggage ng ROTC.:D

[kYuPoL]

tingin ko recent midshipman/woman lang si kyupol. last term ryt? and CCS ka malamang

*okay*

Yeah.. COMPUTER SCIENCE ako... specifically 2000-2001... ako nag-Rotc... Kung naging ENG ako or liberal arts... or any easier course, malamang at least nag-audition ako para sa special units...

Tangnang mga machine problem yan... anhirap hirap... Andami mong gagawin tapos di mo pa alam kung ano gagawin mo... nagkakandarapa ka pa...

Ngayon, art na kinukuha ko... madaming ginagawa pero at least alam ko kung paano ginagawa... :)

Oh... lalake ako... I am a guy... I was a midshipman... :lol: :lol: :lol:

[shaoron]

kyupol: ccs din ako sa la salle. And I also once was in varsity (swimming). And i would like you to know that i've been in the ROTC for 7 terms as a special unit. It's not wether you have the time or not. it's wether you would give time to it or not.
And for the record, I cherish all the terms when I was in service.

oh and one more thing, i heard that may firing na daw this term. balik kaya ako sa service?

[commander]

The Concept of a Citizen Army/Military as enshrined in the National Defense Act of 1935, which provides that, "THE DEFENSE OF THE STATE IS THE OBLIGATION OF EVERY CITIZEN", and aptly reiterated in the 1987 Constitution which emphasizes that, "the AFP shall be composed of a Citizen Armed Force which shall undergo military training and serve as may provided by law".

"As Filipino citizens, it is our duty to serve and protect our country. We need to become responsible individuals in times of war or crisis. The ROTC makes us worthy to be called Filipinos may you be man or woman" - excerpt from SOUND OFF EDITORIAL "ROTC: Will there be Midshipwomen Vol. II No. 1 25 June 1994

[kYuPoL]

in the ROTC for 7 terms as a special unit. It's not wether you have the time or not. it's wether you would give time to it or not.


give time... eh... paano ang sangkatutak na chicks ko? :lol: :lol: :lol: (*joke*)

[shaoron]

chicks as in sisiw?
paglaki nila, gawin mong fried chicken! (joke)

but if you want a serious answer for that question, that's a waste of time :p

[tuna in water]

wala namang bastusan ng college.. hindi porke't *** ka e madali na ang course mo.. kayo nga ang magbasa ng sangkatutak na xerox copies at maging prof si ROBLES!!!
shore patrol ako nung pumasok sa rotc, id101, at un *** time na muntik na maabolish RO. pero nung ginawang 2 terms na lang ang required eh nagtuloy pa din ako.. astig naman eh! :D

[cogstag]

Originally posted by tuna in water
wala namang bastusan ng college.. hindi porke't *** ka e madali na ang course mo.. kayo nga ang magbasa ng sangkatutak na xerox copies at maging prof si ROBLES!!!
shore patrol ako nung pumasok sa rotc, id101, at un *** time na muntik na maabolish RO. pero nung ginawang 2 terms na lang ang required eh nagtuloy pa din ako.. astig naman eh! :D

tama di basta *** madali na course.... MAS MADALI lang courses nila compared sa CCS, COE, CBE and COE... diba? CED? well, no comment...:D

[kYuPoL]

chicks as in sisiw?
paglaki nila, gawin mong fried chicken! (joke)

but if you want a serious answer for that question, that's a waste of time

Waste of time eh... paano ang counter-strike... paano ang pag-dodrawing ko ng comics... paano na... paano na... :bawling:

thats not a waste of time...

ROTC = SAGABAL SA COUNTER-STRIKE!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

*Oh btw, I dont play CS anymore these days and I SUCK. During those days, I was "godlike"... :lol:

[kostkakid]

why should we have any obligation to the country?
for the student loans? or the peace and order? or for a viable public education system? or the government provided school buses?
Canada provides all of this, and asks NOTHING in return. Maybe UP students have some obligation, but no one else.

[tyanak_me]

I think they're pertinent and relevant. It's only whimps who don't like them.

[advancement]

Originally posted by kostkakid
why should we have any obligation to the country?


If a lot of people think like this, Pinas will definitely continue going down.

[Adroth]

Originally posted by kostkakid
why should we have any obligation to the country?
for the student loans? or the peace and order? or for a viable public education system? or the government provided school buses?
Canada provides all of this, and asks NOTHING in return. Maybe UP students have some obligation, but no one else.

If all you do is take from the country, what will be left for future generations?

Are you actually in Canada? Are you intimately familiar with the obligations of Canadian citizens?

I completely agree with Advancement's 'down the tubes' statement.

[Adroth]

Originally posted by Adroth
If all you do is take from the country, what will be left for future generations?

Are you actually in Canada? Are you intimately familiar with the obligations of Canadian citizens? Ever heard of taxes?

I completely agree with Advancement's 'down the tubes' statement.

[shaoron]

Originally posted by kostkakid
why should we have any obligation to the country?
for the student loans? or the peace and order? or for a viable public education system? or the government provided school buses?
Canada provides all of this, and asks NOTHING in return. Maybe UP students have some obligation, but no one else.

why you may ask? one thing is that our government do not have much power or even funding like the canadians do. So does that we we are worse than they are? YES?
What does this mean to you? It means that people should SHUT UP about thing the government can't do and help out what you can do. If you're not part of the solution, you are even worse than the problem!
And since you live here, not to mention a citizen also, you not only have the right but also the responsibility of helping out. If your family is in a tight spot, do you say, "Ano ba naman tong pamilyang to! walang kwenta, di nila ako mabigayn ng ganito, ganito tapos ang dami pang pinapagawa sa akin." This my friend is called being apathetic!

sir advancement: ano na nga ba yung unity code sir?

umm... I can't do every thing but I can do something...

can't remember quite well.

[advancement]

Yang mga katulad ni Kostakid marami niyan dito sa Los Angeles, doon sa may east side. Makikita mo yan mga nakaupo sa bangketa, nagpapalaboy laboy sa mga lansangan at pag gabi na either nasa homeless shelter o kaya natutulog sa mga benches ng may nakatakip na diyaryo. Minsan nga lumalapit pa sa mga tao at manghihingi ng barya. At masahol pa non, nangongolekta pa ng WELFARE CHECK na binayaran ng mga hard working taxpayers. Aba, kahit sa Canada mababa ang tingin sa mga ganun! Tama si Adroth! San kukunin ang pambigay ng retirement, medical at kung ano ano pang benefit sa mga Canadian citizen? Eh di sa TAXES which are of course, everyone's obligation. Mga ibang tao talaga ang hihina ng logic!

Tama din si Shaoron na ang Pilipinas hindi ganun kalaki ang revenue kaya ang magagawa na lang ng mga mamamayan eh tumulong at maging makabayan sa pamamagitan ng CWTS/ROTC. Alam niyo namang may programang ganito eh, kaya kung may mga negative kayong naririnig tungkol dito, anong gagawin niyo? Magsalita? Why not step forward and volunteer to be an Officer or Special Unit member to help make things better? Hindi ba dapat ay ang magsindi na lang ng kandila kung madilim kaysa magreklamo lang ng magreklamo tungkol dito?

Shaoron yung poem na tinatanong mo ganito yun...

"I am only one but I am one
I cannot do everything but I can do something
What I can do I ought to do
and what I do, by the grace of God I will do"

[cogstagg]

grabe si kostakid tsk tsk tsk. ano ba pinakain dito nung bata? siguro puro AM ang binabanatan nito. bata palang ba nagrurugby ka na? your a waste of this country. I don't have to explain things to you kid. find it out yourself.

[kYuPoL]

why should we have any obligation to the country?

ppl like you... uugh... Kaya di umaasenso ang pinas... kaya sumasama ang image ng pinas sa mata ng mga foreigner... at sa mga racist na pilipino... :lol:

[Adroth]

National service programs are a global phenomenon. Find out just how 'hard' Philippine NSTP is in comparison to comparable programs around the world.

National Service Programs: A global perspective (http://adroth.50megs.com/Antirotc/perspectives/perspectives.htm)

[cogstag]

Originally posted by kostkakid
why should we have any obligation to the country?
for the student loans? or the peace and order? or for a viable public education system? or the government provided school buses?
Canada provides all of this, and asks NOTHING in return. Maybe UP students have some obligation, but no one else.

pinas is pinas. canada is canada. maybe you should just go and live in one of those coral atolls so as not to worry about having any obligation to any country.

[mac_bolan00]

bakla lang ang mga ayaw mapa-chato. :bleh:

[kostkakid]

Canadians do pay high taxes, but they receive a level of service at least to some extent to what they pay. And there has not been any conscription since the end of World War II.

The Philippines places the obligations (Taxes, NSTP) on the middle class and gives any benefits to the squatters. What are their obligations?

And with regard to the military why in God's name would we want a military entirely of college graduates. In the USA officers are college graduates but the enlisted are nearly all from the urban poor blacks and the poor rural whites. The US army doesn't even want college level in the enlisted ranks. They want them fresh out of High school.
That Jessica Lynch was in the army because she could not afford college (her goal was not to be a soldier but a teacher) and she thought playing soldier was better than McDo. If the US army with all their high tech can get along with urban poor shouldn't we do the same and give them an opportunity for a stable job.
I think the only reason the military kept ROTC as long as they did was that it was an easy source of corrcuption. They were not thinking of national defense. Maybe at one time when ROTC was founded it had a defense value but times change. NSTP was at least a step in the right direction. The next logical step is to abolish CAT, and then get rid of NSTP. The problem is some schools (either for pride or finances) continue to push the ROTC when it should be voluntary.
Wasn't the original intention of CAT some Marcos New Society thing?

[mac_bolan00]

first, mr stupidovich, does canada have an rotc program? does it have the draft? are you aware that canada fought during world war 2?

now, do you think their standing army is enough during a full-blown war? the US has a far bigger army but it instituted the draft during the first gulf war and was about to do so during the second gulf war because REGULAR FORCES CAN RARELY MEET WARTIME REQUIREMENTS.

so now you ask, is college ROTC relevant? well, shouldn't it be?

you ask, "why an army of college gtraduates?" because those college graduates, stupid as they are, are your potential reserve officers who, at time of war, may very well be sent to the front to lead men.

so thank your lucky stars that it's peacetime, and you're being trained to fight. be very worried when you're called for reserve officer training and they start drafting farmboys, manual laborers and possibly kids below 18 and start training them. you will then be asked to lead those misfits in a real shooting scene. comprende?

[cogstagg]

mac_bolanoo, that's the best damn answer to the "why do we need ROTC?" question since I've gotten into training as an officer...

kostakid, why college students? because they go to direct commissionship. we want atleast college graduate officers don't you?

[Adroth]

Originally posted by kostkakid
[B]Canadians do pay high taxes, but they receive a level of service at least to some extent to what they pay.

I'm glad that you realized that your 'nothing in return' statement was wrong.

The Philippines places the obligations (Taxes, NSTP) on the middle class and gives any benefits to the squatters. What are their obligations?

Every citizen in the republic pays indirect taxes -- rememeber VAT?

Besides, in any country, it is always the middle class that bears the burden of making the nation work. This is why it is very important that the middle class understands its role . . . its duty . . . in a democracy.

And with regard to the military why in God's name would we want a military entirely of college graduates.

You need a certain understanding of the way the world works, and a measure of moral and/or intellectual ascendancy to lead men in combat. The general concensus is that a college education is reasonable pre-requisite for such a position.

This is why US ROTC has the 'green to gold' program that encourages promising NCOs to pursue a college education so that they become eligible for a commission.

So if you have a college degree, it would be a waste of material to have you in the enlisted ranks.

I think the only reason the military kept ROTC as long as they did was that it was an easy source of corrcuption. They were not thinking of national defense.

Seventy (70%) of commissioned officers in the AFP come from ROTC. That's a good enough reason to keep the program going.

NSTP was at least a step in the right direction. The next logical step is to abolish CAT, and then get rid of NSTP.

How else would you make the youth understand that in a democracy, everyone has to do his or her part?

Progressive countries don't become so on their own.

The problem is some schools (either for pride or finances) continue to push the ROTC when it should be voluntary.

The book 'Making Citizen Soldiers' (written by an associate professor of history in the US Air Force Academy) presented a very interesting picture of the role of schools in ROTC. Administrators of American schools viewed their participation in the ROTC program as preventing the creation of a 'military caste' that saw itself as distinct and separate from the remainder of society. To keep their own military from turning on the state (the way it did, unsuccessfully, in 1783), they felt they had to ensure that there were officers whose education were civilian in character. They did not want a officer corps composed entirely of products of military academies.

The Davide commission had similar concerns when it published its findings shortly after the coup d'etat of 1989.

Wasn't the original intention of CAT some Marcos New Society thing?

Wrong president. CAT is based on Preparatory Military Training, which was embodied in Manuel Quezon's Commonwealth Act No.1

[cogstagg]

very very well said sir adroth... pride of ateneo de davao ladies and gentlement! (i hope i was right bout the school?)

[Adroth]

Originally posted by cogstagg
very very well said sir adroth... pride of ateneo de davao ladies and gentlement! (i hope i was right bout the school?)

Right about the school :)

[advancement]

Pahiya nanaman si Kostakid. :lol:

[shaoron]

wow! lakas mang bara mga officers! :D

[Introvert_S]

grabe, baka natrauma na yan....


wait.. di ba school yung Kotska?

[kostkakid]

several points:
first I disagree with Adoth that conscription and National service is a trend. France abolished conscription last year, Italy will be free as of January 1st; in the entire British Commonweatlth only:
Bermuda
Cyprus
Malaysia
Singapore
have conscription. Cyprus will abolish once unified and the Turkish threat is diminished.
and why should we try to immitate the worst, we should try to be the best. He should list those countries which are conscription free also.
The most desirable countries are those conscription free. Has anyone heard of anyone ever wanting to immigrate to Cuba, North Korea, Tanzania, or even Singapore (I don't mean work there-I mean would anyone want to be Singaporean or Malaysian?)
On the other hand the papers are full of ads helping people to immigrate to Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the USA.

With regard to taxation we should also strive for lower taxes. Many countries do not have any income tax and they survive.


With regard to Canada, it is the country with the longest history of no draft. And even during WWI and WWII there was resistance to conscription. They also provided refuge to Americans during the Vietnam war.

With regard to ROTC it should be maintained on a 100% voluntary basis. I bet Ateneo could fill their so called quota in one day if they offered ROTC scholarships to public school graduates. And it would diversify the student population, and later on the business community as those grads were hired by the multinationals. No money for it? raise tuition 5%. No one would notice. Win-win. Those receiving the scholarships are happy, the others are happy to be left alone, and the country benefits.

I also feel their should be a listing of what NSTP components each school offers, and if there is any forced ROTC participation.
At least Ateneo is honest that they force ROTC. what about LaSalle? UP? and all the others.

[Adroth]

Originally posted by kostkakid
several points:
first I disagree with Adoth that conscription and National service is a trend.

I did not say it was a trend. I said that the need to instill a culture of service is recognized globally. My words were it is a 'global phenomenon'.

Military conscription is losing ground because it is expensive to maintain. The cost benefit ratio of a fully professional army is far more favorable. Nevertheless, name one country that does not maintain a reserve force.

Remember, Philippine NSTP is by no mean conscription. Its far too easy when compared to comparable programs that our neighbors have. You don't become a soldier after ROTC; you just become a more knowledgable raw recruit.

There also other forms of mandatory service.

why should we try to immitate the worst, we should try to be the best

My sentiments exactly. Which is why I chose to list countries that are doing far better than we are.

We have to crawl before we can run. Therefore, before we can become Canada, the US, or Australia, we have to first be at par with the likes of Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, and Malaysia.

The first three, btw, have conscription, the latter will have their own equivalent to NSTP next year.

Given that there are still Filipinos who don't understand that they have duties to perform as citizens of a democratic country -- we have a very very long way to go.

The most desirable countries are those conscription free.

<edited>

On the other hand the papers are full of ads helping people to immigrate to Canada, Australia, and the USA.

With regard to taxation we should also strive for lower taxes. Many countries do not have any income tax and they survive.

Do you know how high the taxes are in the countries you enumerated above? How many people from these countries do you actually know?

Any country with a real kick-*** social security system will get the required funds either from high taxes, or mandatory deductions (kinda like our SSS and Pag-ibig, but much much higher). Where else do you think these countries will get the money?

Canada pursues an active immigration policy because their population is declining (not enough people want to start families), and they need more young people to pay taxes -- so that their social security system doesn't collapse. Ask any Canadian.

Did you know that conscription is still a legal option in both the United States and Australia?

Their conscription systems are similar in the sense that they are conducted like a lottery. They are not currently used, because their existing force strength is sufficient for their current needs. But when crap hits the propeller -- citizens can be called to duty.

As for mandatory service that is still in place. Find out how the US jury system works.

With regard to ROTC it should be maintained on a 100% voluntary basis. I bet Ateneo could fill their so called quota in one day if they offered ROTC scholarships to public school graduates.

The Ateneo offers scholarships to qualified individuals. Some alumni also pitch in. They have to be qualified, otherwise they wouldn't survive the rigors of Jesuit education.

No money for it? raise tuition 5%. No one would notice. Win-win. Those receiving the scholarships are happy, the others are happy to be left alone, and the country benefits.

Kid, you must be rich not to notice a 5% increase in tuition, especially in a school like the Ateneo.

The current system works fine.

I also feel their should be a listing of what NSTP components each school offers, and if there is any forced ROTC participation.

I'm sure if you asked schools before you enrolled with them (or before they test you to see if your worth accepting), they will tell you how they conduct NSTP. Its not a secret.

[shaoron]

Originally posted by kostkakid
several points:
first I disagree with Adoth that conscription and National service is a trend. France abolished conscription last year, Italy will be free as of January 1st; in the entire British Commonweatlth only:
Bermuda
Cyprus
Malaysia
Singapore
have conscription. Cyprus will abolish once unified and the Turkish threat is diminished.
and why should we try to immitate the worst, we should try to be the best. He should list those countries which are conscription free also.
The most desirable countries are those conscription free. Has anyone heard of anyone ever wanting to immigrate to Cuba, North Korea, Tanzania, or even Singapore (I don't mean work there-I mean would anyone want to be Singaporean or Malaysian?)
On the other hand the papers are full of ads helping people to immigrate to Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the USA.

With regard to taxation we should also strive for lower taxes. Many countries do not have any income tax and they survive.


With regard to Canada, it is the country with the longest history of no draft. And even during WWI and WWII there was resistance to conscription. They also provided refuge to Americans during the Vietnam war.

With regard to ROTC it should be maintained on a 100% voluntary basis. I bet Ateneo could fill their so called quota in one day if they offered ROTC scholarships to public school graduates. And it would diversify the student population, and later on the business community as those grads were hired by the multinationals. No money for it? raise tuition 5%. No one would notice. Win-win. Those receiving the scholarships are happy, the others are happy to be left alone, and the country benefits.

I also feel their should be a listing of what NSTP components each school offers, and if there is any forced ROTC participation.
At least Ateneo is honest that they force ROTC. what about LaSalle? UP? and all the others.

I don't know about UP but as far as DLSU is concerned, we don't force the froshies to take up ROTC if they don't want to. I encourage some of the ones i know, but i don't black mail them errr... force them. (just joking there :p ) And as someone in the service for more than 3x the required number of terms and also NOT a commisioned officer, we have never forced anyone except if the CWTS compnent is already full. In fact, the corp of ROTC officers are not forcing them, it's just like saying, "nasaradohan ng section", which is not our fault.

And how can we be like the best ones, if we couldn't be even at par with the "worst ones"? Baby steps, boy! Baby steps first!

And as for the rest... yeah, sir adoth pretty much says it all.

[advancement]

Bilib talaga ako kay Adroth... some kids think they know it all :lol:

[Introvert_S]

UP does not force freshies to enlist in ROTC (takot lang nila). Mangilan-ngilan na lang ang nagpapakamartir sa ROTC. Most are enrolled in the NSTP program which is way way easier and less strenuous.

[shaoron]

well kostakid, there's your answer.

anymore questions you might want to ask?

[advancement]

Just a note: Martyrdom is a virtue. Our national hero and Jesus were martyrs. ;)

[shaoron]

shot right thru the heart, sir advancement!

[dinky207]

Singapore and Malaysia have no freedom of the press, no real democracy, legalized torture (they call it caning) but just another word for torture. So why would anyone want to imitate them.

Lee Kwan Yew is only a milder version of Hitler or Saddam

[advancement]

Progress is better than too much Democracy. The people of Singapore and Malaysia can be considered to be more free because their people live more decent lives. No need to be "enslaved" ad Domestic Helpers, Japayukis or Laborers in some far flung place. In the Philippines where there is too much democracy, the people live in constant fear. There's fear of hunger, poisonous air, dirty environments, crime, poverty and even fear of the stupidity of other Filipinos who lack the proper education and/or discretion (like the ones who voted Erap) who make things worse for everybody. American democracy is not yet applicable to countries like the Philippines. Something like LKY's Benevolent Authoritarianism would be more applicable.

[Adroth]

Originally posted by dinky207

[quote]So why would anyone want to imitate them.

How about these reasons:

Corruption perceptions index (2002)(http://www.transparency.org/cpi/2002/cpi2002.en.html)

The lower the ranking, the less corrupt a country is percieved to be:

Singapore: #5
Malaysia: #33
Philippines: #77 (lumped with Pakistan, Romania, and Zamibia)

Tid bits from the World Fact Book (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html)

Unemployment

Singapore: 4.6%
Malaysia: 3.8%
Philippines: 10.2%

Population below poverty line

Singapore: N/A%
Malaysia: 8%
Philippines: 40%

Lee Kwan Yew is only a milder version of Hitler or Saddam

Has Lee Kwan Yew invaded another country, or committed genocide?

Each country has its own formula for success. His worked.

We brag about having democracy and freedom of the press. Exactly how have those two elements helped us?

[shaoron]

dinky207: you know what's the problem with democracy? people for get responsibility! Freedom is a kind of poer, and as Uncle Ben (of spiderman) always says, "With great power comes great responsibility."

[dinky207]

and absolute power corrupts absolutely. sooner or later Singapore will get a corrupt or incompetent dictator.

[dinky207]

we can read what we want, watch what we want on TV.

I don't want some old fool telling me what to read, not to chew gum, or any of their other nonsense.

Singapore is a dictatorship and sham elections should not legitimise it.

with regard to Canada there has not been a draft since World War II. Any ROTC would be voluntary.

[Adroth]

Originally posted by dinky207
we can read what we want, watch what we want on TV.

They do have cable TV. So citizens still have a say in what they watch.

I don't want some old fool telling me what to read, not to chew gum, or any of their other nonsense.

Do you even know why the banned chewing gum? It was not done on a whim.

http://www.expatsingapore.com/general/law.htm

Chewing gum

This rule was introduced because of the high cost and difficulty in removing stucked chewing gum from public premises. In particular, chewing gum stuck on the Mass Rapid Transit train doors stopped the trains from moving. It happened a few times and those were a few times too many.

It was a draconian solution -- but it worked.

Why should the country's resources be used to clean up after the irresponsible few?

Singapore is a dictatorship and sham elections should not legitimise it.

As far as I'm concerned, a government that makes things work, and has Singapore's track record for eliminating poverty, is a legitimate government.

That is more than I can say about ours.

with regard to Canada there has not been a draft since World War II. Any ROTC would be voluntary.

You are entitled to your assumptions.

If we were really better off, why are so many people leaving the Philippines? Some even go to Singapore where btw, being Filipino is equated with being a servant.

The Philippines will never get better if we keep deluding ourselves into thinking that there's nothing wrong with the country.

[ziggyboy]

No.

[cogstagg]

yep. the country is slowly going down the drain. the president is a doctor in economics and still she couldn't stir the boat streight. it all rolls down to the filipino attitude: crab mentality, easy go lucky-finding the easiest way to get rich, slams, being too traditional (that might have helped sometimes), etc. we should change the majority's sentiment. be one of the pros kahit hindi. see how the chinese are always prosperous? in wealth, religion, spirituality etc? the chinese is just an example. I am not saying they are better.

[dinky207]

Singapore has cable TV but it is heavily censored. That is why you sometimes see "not available in all territories" on HBO and Cinemax

[Adroth]

Originally posted by dinky207
Singapore has cable TV but it is heavily censored. That is why you sometimes see "not available in all territories" on HBO and Cinemax

Not for CNN, BBC, and other news channels.

Do you get your current events from HBO or Cinemax?

Ever heard of the MTRCB?

[dinky207]

Singapore does censor news media. Time and the AWSJ have both been banned at times.

Yes-the MTRCB is useless and should be eliminated but it is nowhere near as strict as Singapore or Malaysia. Just compare HBO, AXN, and Cinemax schedules for Philippines and Singapore or Malaysia. Mostly the same but they do censor and substitute programs for Singapore and Malaysian households.