software piracy

[ziggyboy]

i've noticed the sudden increase of software and audio piracy here in the philippines. i'm not sure how this really works, but as long as there is no one to press charges against those who sell these disks, there's no one to stop them? am i right? personally, i can't say that i've never used/bought pirated software...how about you?

anyway, will microsoft phils pay those who tip them of shops that sell pirated microsoft products? magkano? hehehe. =)

[This message has been edited by ziggyboy (edited 03-12-2000).]

[Ira]

Microsoft pays PhP100,000. Not sure about the details of the tipping deal, though.

With regard to raiding these places, I think only Microsoft is aggressive enough to look for them and ask help from law enforcers. But then, they have a big local company here, with extensive legal representation. Other software companies who aren't as big and who don't have legal representations (and probably don't realise that this country exists? hehe) cannot do the same.

[Orion D.]

Ziggyboy:

Thanks for writing the company name the right way... :)

------------------

Ira is right about the 100,000. But it isn't just a matter of name dropping. You may need to sign a few affidavits and do some legal stuff. You may also have to give sworn testimony, possibly in court. But you will be protected as far as your identity is concerned. BTW, the pay comes in only after a successful case.

As for our organization, no we aren't a big company. We've only got some 30+ people here, and most of the RAIDING stuff isn't done directly by MS. It's done by the Business Software Alliance and the NBI.

[This message has been edited by Orion D. (edited 03-17-2000).]

[ziggyboy]

i posted this message because i'm broke and i know a shop (a big one, actually) which sells pirated windows cds for P400. hehehe.

[:Þ]

Software piracy is everywhere - especially today where people can buy burners for less than a hundred bucks! I just read this somewhere na ang Pilipinas raw ay nasa TOP 3 sa buong mundo na nagse-sell ng Pirated softwares. That's so embarassing, and I'm not kidding.

Oo nga naman, when you go to Greenhills raw, puro 'burned CDs' na raw ang mabibili mo sa Virra Mall. Sheesh, mahiya naman sana sila. Those programmers spent hours programming and debugging apps just to be pirated. tsk tsk.

Anyways, my friend in the Philippines told me she bought a burned Win2K.. sa GreenHills raw nya binili - Only to discover some 'misrecorded chunks of data' in the
CD-R. Tough luck. If you buy the original software, you will get ALL documents, manuals, support, bundles, warranty, etc.
Plus, the CD looks nice too!

Dapat dito sa mga 'to pinapahuli. Dito sa States hindi pwede ang Piracy. Kulong ka kaagad :) Mas ok nga yung ganun eh, at least fair, diba?

About the Linux thingy, I'm better off programming while being paid rather than programming for free and for contribution of my source code.

I agree with Orion D. Stop bashing MS.
I remember one Linux geek telling me how Linux can make 'old hardware' useful again.
Well, I am so glad Microsoft have recognized the need to fully implement and
take advantage of the hardware, and lead ahead, not be stuck developing
for the 386 and 486 spec computers, or indeed, P200 and below. And, might
I add, the P166 is still as powerful today as it was when it was released,
and thanks to Microsoft, and other companies, who share the same
aspirations, there's a lot of software which fully implements the system,
because when it was released, they wrote software it could run.

One instance: Have you seen a 'FLASHED' website? Those were created using either a MAC, or a PC(running WinX).. let's see your Linux do that!


:D

[ziggyboy]

:Þ - that's too bad. you know, i'm willing to make open source software. meron na nga yatang philippine open source foundation eh. to some people, it's important to make old hardware useful again. that's why linux is called an alternative.

i think the open source developers are those who develop software more because of passion than anything else. programmers who use linux feel obliged to contribute something. these people are the real people who contribute to internet technology. saan ka na nakakita ng battle.net server available anywhere, whether open source or not? sa linux lang (www.bnetd.org). ako masaya kasi i can set up a dialup server for my friends to play starcraft, kung wala eh di puro one on one lang ang kaya namin.

and one more thing about this linux-windows thing, you're off topic.

[:Þ]

Does it need to be 'In-Topic' all the time? It just happened that the Linux subject came to my mind that's why I included it.
http://forum.appleinsider.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Mikoid]

It's not too difficult to open a new topic, and it'll help other people find and contribute to your discussion.

At any rate, back to the topic. Do you folks think that if more people locally purchased original software, the price for them would go down? Some bits of software are unbelievably expensive (like MS Office or most things from Adobe) and make the cost of a PC terribly prohibitive.

A friend of mine actually took this belief a step further when he said that pirated software actually benefits the Philippine economy because it allows homes and businesses to use high-end software at a lower cost, making us more competitive.

It's an insane theory and by no means do I subscribe to it, but in a twisted sort of way, it rings true.

[ginoledesma]

Mikoid, I also had the same idea as your friend's. Unfortunately, this isn't so.

The price which some applications carry usually show the abilities and efforts of the programmers as well as the price it deserves. Unfortunately, some packages are "ridiculously" overpriced. :(

But sometimes, this must be the case. Think about this. Certain programs are priced expensively because a company knows you require their software. CAD programs are usually priced over the $1000-range, because the companies know that, you, as an architect or modeler or what, require that program because it is your profession. Graphics packages are priced equally because the company knows that you make pro graphics for a living. The same goes for desktop layout/publishing apps, 3D Modeling, Animation, Video, Audio, etc.

To the companies, a "jack of all trades" means a very professional (not to mention wealthy) person.

If you are questioning MS Office's price tag, here is my personal insight. MS Office deserves the price tag it carries because it includes the best of all programs - a powerful word processor, a superduper excellent spreadsheet, a manageable/usable and slightly user-friendly database, an easy-to-use presentation software, an efficient e-mail program, an intuitive WYSIWYG HTML program, and a flexible personal management program (Outlook). Surely you wouldn't expect MS to sell this for only $100. The programming effort AND benefits the program provides is MORE than that.

On the other hand, people do not see this. They think of MS Office as Word [and sometimes] Excel and Powerpoint. This is a fault. MS Word is NOT MS Office. If people only [need to] use Word, then buy the standalone MS Word package. I believe they used to do this before (pre-Office 9x versions), I'm not sure now.

If people need the entire office suite but cannot afford it, and are thinking of alternatives, there is StarOffice. If they must use MS Word, then let them buy MS Word and buy cheaper alternatives to the other office components. If they need them all but have limited budget, they can go for MS's licensing terms.

I am sorry for tackling only MS products, but they are the most popular ones, especially here in the Philippines. My same reasoning goes for Adobe products, Photoshop, PageMaker, InDesign, Premiere, and all the rest.

Software piracy rose because of individual's false perception of overpricing. Many people as well, who have blindly followed this idea, are into it as well.

I can not say I have never used pirated software. I have, in almost everywhere. From a friend's PC to some Internet cafe shops. But I know I have not used a single pirated software on my Mac. I purchased MS Office 4.3 (Word 6, Excel, etc...) from a rebate shop, and have alternatives to the other expensive apps - I have GraphicConverter and Photoshop LE, and other shareware programs.

Granted, software piracy is a voicing out of some people to the companies to lower their prices. But even if companies do lower prices, will people come?

[SHAIDER]

You don't have to buy pirated softwares anymore, you can download them from the net complete with serial numbers.

[Mikoid]

Point taken, ginoledesma... I think that some gaming companies are taking a step in the right direction releasing "Filipinized" games at competitive prices. I wonder if we'll ever see this for higher-end software.

[ginoledesma]

SHAIDER, Que Horror! Downloading software [illegally] from the net with their serial numbers is just as bad as purchasing pirated CDs. The act of obtaining software illegally from the Internet is known as WAREZ. This is equivalent to piracy. The serial number belongs to someone who has purchased the original 'boxed' software. Unfortunately, he or she may have given it away [clumsilly or intentionally] and that is bad.

WAREZ is, in a sense, much harder to track down because of the vast space in the Internet. There's no knowing where one lives. However, there are ways to find out.

[POW!]

Unsafe ang mga Warez! ingat sa mga virus in downloading this pirated stuff

[SHAIDER]

Gino....I know their illegal, but they're also free.....hehehe.

POW...pwede ka namang mag download ng mga trial versions sa mga legal na sites, tapos hanap ka na lang ng crackz.

[maxwell]

Without piracy, do you think you people would even learn MS WORD?

[poetry]

the internet is a ******* science, in this case when the tides of learning go against the moral principle and the difference between a pirated cd and a licensed one is virtually nil and moot - we should let the people who engage in this fare ask themselves whether their pockets could afford it or their hunger for learning could not be sufficed by any digital bounderies... go figure

[ziggyboy]

you're right. nothing justifies software piracy. a crime is a crime. what software companies should do is offer software support and pricing suited for the philippines.

when you buy a game in the u.s., you get all the benefits: toll-free tech support, money back guarantee (if you're unsatisfied), and other free stuff....plus promos, raffles, etc.

do you get any of that here? i don't even think that the local microsoft offers a 90-day money-back guarantee...there's probably more content in the microsoft website than the local tech support.

[Mikoid]

Companies need to redefine their enforcement strategy. I think a lot of those that crusade against local piracy need to address the fundamental problem rather than the symptoms -- which I find are high prices and the fact that it is in a format that's readily duplicated.

Legit software is expensive and needs to be priced more competitively for individual users and entry-level users. Software in infinitely replicable. Also, encryption standards need to be raised to the point that it's no longer economically feasible to make digital copies of something.

MS is going in one direction by making their new Office require Internet registration or else it'll shut down after 30 days.

But that's just the tip of the iceberg. Until we see some profound infrastructural changes in the way software is priced and distributed, I don't see the pirated rate ever going down.

[lipstickboy]

software piracy and warez make things extremely unfair to the programmers, but here in the philippines, can we really afford to go the legal way?

if we did, we would have to shell hundreds to several thousand pesos just for a software package, and because it's in the philippines, support is probably not covered. as a consumer do you really think it's worth it?

why hasn't anyone reported these pirates? if someone had done so, it would've hit the headlines by now. i suspect that it would probably generate a domino effect, too.

so why not? well, it would not only affect the entire country's software "industry" but the economy as well. a lot of people who have been weaned on the popular business/education programs have learned them from pirated cds. without them, not only would a lot of people end up underqualified, but those who would've gotten nice, high-paying tech jobs abroad would be deprived of such an opportunity. students and budding talents would not be able to learn as much without the use of such software.

not only that, but with the average pedro's income, he cannot realistically afford to buy standard software at standard prices. keep in mind that more than half of our people live below the poverty line. my god, do you realize the implications of eliminating all forms of piracy in this country?

ergh... i have to go sit down and think about this some more

[maxwell]

Having to work for a government agency, I have been involved with a project of having to bring computer literacy to public elementary and secondary schools nationwide. One of my worries is how to cut down the cost of software purchases that are needed to implement the project. I know some of you maybe thinking "why not just get one Windows OS and just buy the license for the rest?", but you see I cannot just have people go around the country just to install Windows everytime a station needs to be reformatted nor can the agency that I work for buy one box set of the OS for each school. We are talking of at least a thousand school all over the country and at least 6 computers for each school.

Not only am I concerned of the operating system, I should also consider the other softwares that are needed...let's say Math Blaster or some other educational software which cost around $20 - $50 each, then add that to the cost of maintenance and repair of the computers *whew* we are talking of millions that the government would have to spend just to get these kids actually learn how to use the computers. Oh! don't forget that the country's budget appropriation is primarily given to the military.

Yes, we had to pirate a lot of CDs just to give these kids a chance to being "globally competitive". Not only were we able to save money but we also opened a new window of learning for thousands of kids and probably even changed the lives of some. If this was left to the low-income Juan Dela Cruz, would he actually even be able to pay for the cost of a license? or let's just say, a computer?

The only way for softwares prices to actually go down is if we made the softwares themselves or force these companies to markdown those prices for Asia. Until then, software piracy will remain rampant and will be a way for us filipinos to be "in-touch" with the latest technology.

[clublexus]

SCREW LEAGAL COPIES!!! hehehehehe
I want my pirated CDs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Besides....I think IPR is OVERRATED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[badtz]

Yah! Right!
YES TO PIRACY!
Yun lang naman ang paraan para ma-enjoy ng mga 'medyo may kaya' yung mga pinagbibili ng mga MAYAYAMAN na yun! Enjoy ako sa P100 na CD-ROM! P80 na AUDIO-CD! saka iba pang pirated stuff! Mura kasi, saka makakarami ka pa! Pareho lang naman yung quality, natatakot lang yung mga company kasi nalulugi sila, pano naman ANG MAMAHAL ng software nila! Dati P1200 lang isang game, nun di pa uso piracy ngayon - P2500 na! Kaya maraming tao na na-co-convince na mag-pirate ng software saka audio-cd! Tingnan nyo sa Music One mahal ng cd - P450! pero along ayala blvd, raming nagbebenta, yung bang mga mamang may dalang mga lahon, P80 lang! Same quality pa, sa bagay mura nga kaso lang mga lyrics yung mga kanta saka picture ng kumanta, pero ok na yun! Marami naman as internet nung mga yun!

[kerb]

i think kaya lang pigilan ng BSA ay 'yung mga nag ma-manufacture (locally) talaga ng mga pirated CDs. pero sa internet? never.

bebenta ko na si kalakian para makabili ng windows 2000. pwede pa naman si paltik sa pag a-araro.

"encryption standards need to be raised to the point that it's no longer economically feasible to make digital copies of something."

any kind encryption does not prevent one from copying/duplicating of something. (look at dvd case). it prevents me from decoding the data, but its just a matter of time (dvd was cracked in just a few of months after the official release, thx to genius hackers behind deCSS).
and how bout after fully functional quantum computers comes out?. quantum computers will render all (even the strongest) encryption schemes useless. :). but thats another story.

theres this "self-destructing CD's" http://prostudio.com/oto/feb99/exploding.html being manufactured somewhere in europe (switzerland). _might_ be an "alternative" to todays' copy protection schemes. after a certain number of usage, the media "becomes unusable".

now the good thing about open source is u dont have to worry about ppl pirating ur precious software :). open source is for the masses.. for those who cant buy gold plated OS.

[This message has been edited by kerb (edited 04-02-2000).]

[adlaw]

personally, i haven't had pirated softwares. Most of my softwares came with the macintosh i bought. some sharewares like graphic converter and gif builder (hail those geniuses, sana ganoon din ka magnanimous si bill gates) i downloaded from the internet. i had to buy my MS Office 98 for $800 bucks since i had to import it from the states to japan. talk about highway robbery. in japan, the softwares are translated into japanese version and sold at prices which are at the same level as in the states. but the english softwares undergo taxation since they are branded as imported and so the price doubles. fortunately, my powerful canvas 7.0 (a veritable adobe pagemaker, photoshop, illustrator, and pagemill rolled into one) was only a cool $150 since i bought it as an esd version, wherein i payed via visa card and then downloaded the software after they gave me the serial numbers and such by e-mail. hey, this is a real cool concept. it worked well for me, and i sure hope this would become the wave of the future of software vending.

poetry - you are on target. the people who can afford the original softwares should pay for them. but we should not condemn those who can't afford those high price origs. kasi, it might be the step for these people to succeed in this competitive world. now once they succeed and can afford the original, then they should buy them. intellectual property is a good principle when the playing field is equal. i think we should not be overly moralistic about these things. eh paano if these people could not really afford those origs? is it really nice and good for him/her to not buy those pirated softwares and then lose the race to improve his/her skills? eh di, loser x 2, iyon, di ba?

i read this story years ago sa cnn. the US government was complaining to the chinese government about the proliferation of software piracy in china. they even asked the chinese government to help them in raiding such shops. the chinese government asked why should they do it. the us gov't said that piracy is stealing intellectual property. the chinese government replied: well then, pay us chinese loyalty for every chinese take-out ordered in the usa. chinese food is the intellectual property of the chinese people.

the thing is, is it really moralistic to put such a heavy price on intellectual property? i bet bill gates could live a million lives with his profits. if i had the power, i'd give the 100 billion dollars to einstein. not that he would accept it.

[Orion D.]

Hi Adlaw: Daghang salamat sa pag-anhi sa akong forum! :)

[adlaw]

hi orion!

bilib na ako sa iyo, fellow cebu-jin. moderator ka na pala dito. and you are all over the place. i even saw your name in the tsinoy.com forum. are you roaming around forums or what! basig kasab-an ka ni bill gates kay sige ka ug la-ag la-ag. ;) btw, tell him to i need a $400 reimbursement for my overpriced Office 98. i need the money to buy a new digicam. hehehe.

ang imong mang-hud taga-science high sad no?
ang akong sister siguro ka-batch niya. i hope i am not mistaken.

[Orion D.]

Yup. Well, ang nahitabo kanako is, since I stay up so late sa office, mo-suroy ko sa uban at night as a break... This week, for instance, since daghan sa mga cliente ga-pang bakasyon, mao na nga in-between, mo-suroy ko. Mao sab na^, kasab-an ko ni BillG kon makakita siya's akong gi-panulat dinhi ug sa laing lugar...

Ay'g saba, kay masakpan ko. :)

Anyway, after this week, dili na ko maka post kaayo'g palabi, kay balik na g'yud ko sa seryoso nga trabaho... :)

Now you know my sister? (Lyra) Taga-Science High lagi... :)

[Dexzilla]

yikes!!! may taga [b]Microsoft[b] pala dito .. heheeh.</p>

I just hope there are things like a student edition of famous applications. I think [b]buying[b] an expensive application like the MS Office just to be able to make a school paper or presentation is actually dumb. </p>

What i would like to see is the pricing of Applications be proportional for the person buying it. For example, bill a company a bigger amount for purchasing Applications they [b]NEED and USE[b] in earning a lot of money!

As for the linux thing, I just hope it gains a lot of ground. I hope it remains free and more Games, Applications, and HArdware developers see its potential.</p>

I hope someday the NET will be free of charge!</p>

[neonique]

piracy sucks no doubt about that, buts its one of the convenient ways we can own pieces of software that would cost ten times as much as they really do.

I myself buy pirated games, but if the game is really really really damn good, I do the developer a favor and purchase a real version (except for Half-Life, but I promise I will buy one when Counter-Strike is finalized! :lol :)

As for the whole audio piracy thing... I do pity the artists who sweat blood and tears to create an album.... but of course economy wins out in the end, but I do them a favor too, if the song is damn excellent, I go out and buy the album... but if not... ah well I'll just make do with that one song http://www.pinoyexchange.com/shy.gif

[mamangbumbero]

I do not know about you guys but I earn a living designing software -- so I abide by the IPR law. Also, 'am an avid fan of the Open Source movement so I use, and contribute to some (but not actively) OSS projects.

Now if you guys are going to start a Linux-NT thread, the I say it's just a waste of bandwidth. Linux is for people with an attitude. People who cannot stand rebooting their machines multiple times a day (If you're a Windows developer, you know what I mean). People who use Windows are those who accept the currently norm, and pride of how beautify the GUI is. 'am not saying Window users are lame, but instead, geeks will find time to tweak their machines, regardless. The average neneng, totoy, ale, at mama do not have the patience to read the manuals... but not of them can content with constant reboots because most think that they have dont something to make the machine hangup.

I do not know what my point is. I'm just too sleepy but 'am waiting for a phone call so I cannot hit the sack just yet. :)

stay cool.

Mamang Bumbero

[jack]

its alive and well.

[wild_pidgey]

Sa ngayon hindi pa kaya ng Pinas na bumili ng mamahaling mga software kaya medyo mas nakabubuti pang mamirata muna tayo.

Dapat nga siguro di tayo pumirma sa IPR na yan. Kasi wala naman tayong pakinabang. Kaunti lang naman yung dapat nating protektahan(kahit naman may IPR ninanakaw pa nga yung mga dapat na sa atin gaya ng nata de coco at ibang mge halaman). Kapag siguro marami na tayong dapat protektahan saka na lang tayo sumunod. Medyo may pagka-Machiavellian pero ganoon din naman sila. Dati nung hindi pa maunlad ang mga Kano ay pinipirata naman nila ang mga libro ng mga British. Yung mga British naman gusto ring magkaroon ng IPR.

"There are no permanent friend or foes only permanent self-interest" :)

[AGA MUHLACH]

Makukulong ka rin bah sa US pag you owned a pirated CD bought from other countries? or Pag nagbenta ka lang?

[kerb]

metallica is suing napster and its 30K (or 300K?) napster users :). gling no? lets see howd they do it > ;).

[ziggyboy]

I suppose it's morality over practicality.

[nelo]

Piracy is definitely a bad thing, but why the heck should you pay a lot for products that are defective? Windows 98 SE fixes a lot of bugs and some additional features, but nothing of a milestone improvement so why pay a huge amount for it?

Make products that are almost bug-free or bug-free (if it's possible) then you can sell it at your price!

http://www.pinoyexchange.com/smokin.gif

[kerb]

honestly, i wouldnt really buy a Win98SE Box basing from its performance on my PC.
kung gusto nila gumawa silang Windows 98 Shareware version (30 days trial) hehe.

[This message has been edited by kerb (edited 05-30-2000).]

[barehead]

Sakaling magmatigas na talaga sila Microsoft, Adobe, and all those big software guys, at gawing only licensed software can run at all, then why not this -- in fact, noon pa dapat ito at wala namang ga-mundong obstacle: produce our own software! Yes, why not apply ourselves to it bigtime and sell our own vastly improved answers to the Office or Lotus suite, imaging, CAD, video editing, etc. apps? If they've done it, why can't we? Many Indians, Chinese, Europeans, and Japanese actually write the code for those popular apps; do you mean Filipinos are good only at writing I Love You and striking fear in the global I.T. community?

Bill Gates doesn't build ships, we already do. Bill Gates doesn't develop raw land into chains of residential projects, we've always been good at that. But Bill Gates is the richest man in the world! Just by finding out what kind of conveniences people really want and by putting together a good team of people to make those desired things materialize... Now that's one field we probably can compete in. And then, to give due recognition and reward to our programmers, pay them real well, just below what Bill Gates makes. Domestic users of our software get a decent discount, while overseas, naturally, it should be the usual level playing field.

What that boils down to, 'Pinas won't be notorious anymore for software piracy.

Sa hardware side, kahit hindi natin talaga strength yon, maybe we can gradually increase local content of computer and electronics hardware produced here. Taiwan and Thailand were notable pirates before, but today they're producing quality OEM/ branded goods. Can't we do that?

[zimdude]

I've joined this discussion group, and ITNetCentral's Heinz Bulos is looking for others who could join. Please mail him at heinz@wsgroup.com.ph.

--

Hi peeps,

The Web mag is holding a virtual roundtable discussion on intellectual
property and piracy, covering software, Web sites, music, and film.

We're looking for participants who will represent consumers (wala kasing
Kapisanan ng mga Pirata ng Pilipinas, hehe). You can be anonymous or
identify yourself as a representative of anyone who has downloaded an MP3
file, bought a pirated CD or VCD, used someone else's copyrighted photo, or
used pirated software (kahit games lang).

Any brave souls? I need people who can argue well against corporate and
industry types. Please e-mail me privately.

Also, I'm looking for bigshots from the film and recording industry (major
studio producers). If you can refer me to them, that would be swell.

Maybe you're a victim of piracy yourself. You're welcome to participate.

Thanks!
Heinz

[tolya]

Originally posted by zimdude
I've joined this discussion group, and ITNetCentral's Heinz Bulos is looking for others who could join. Please mail him at heinz@wsgroup.com.ph.

This looks like incriminating yourself... like a sting operation.

[Angus_McBastard]

For the record, much of the Filipinos' computer skills was built on software piracy.

[Edited by Angus_McBastard on 06-12-2001 at 10:24 AM]

[Pao|o]

Originally posted by Angus_McBastard
For the record, much of the Filipinos' computer skills was built on software piracy.

[Edited by Angus_McBastard on 06-12-2001 at 10:24 AM]

Sad... very sad.

[tolya]

There should be socialized pricing for MS software in Third World countries. An original Win2K Professional OS cost about P7,300.00 and that's only the OS. Windows 98SE and ME cost about P3750.00 each. The MS Office SBE is about P8,550.00. Software alone would cost you from P12,000.00 to almost P16,000.00 How about your system? You want a nice fast computer that would run your software. That would set you back P25-30,000.00. Who could afford these prices? Only the upper crust of society, the 10 percent segment or even less. Computers would become an elitist tool, that's why in our country I think we have the lowest density of computer users in SE Asia.

We can always use Linux :).

[Pao|o]

Originally posted by tolya
We can always use Linux :).

That's right. Why should we force companies to price their products while there are a lot of free software around.