Bs/ms Amf

[tesseract]

I received a copy of the survey for students taking up Ma21 at the Ateneo regarding a new program to be offered next school year by the Math Department of the Ateneo: A Five Year Bachelor of Science - Master of Science in Applied Mathematics Major in Mathematical Finance.

As the survey says:

"...During the past three decades we have witnessed the emergence of a new scientific discipline, the `theory of finance.' The theory has become increasingly mathematical to the point that problems in finance have led to a phenomenal surge in mathematical research activities in the area. Thus, there is a clear and growing demand for mathematical scientists with knowledge of financial markets..."

Here's a copy of the proposed curriculum. Enjoy.

FRESHMAN YEAR

First Sem

(3) En 11 -- Communication Accross the Curriculum I
(3) En13 -- Introduction to Fiction
(3) AMC 21 -- Introduction to Computing I
(6) Ma18 a&b -- Principles of Modern Mathematics I&II
(5/4) NatSci -- Bi7/Es10/Ch7/8 (choose one)
(2) PE
(3) NSTP -- National Service Training Program

TOTAL: 20/19

Second Sem

(3) En12 -- Communication Across the Curriculum II
(3) En14 -- Introduction to Poetry
(6) Ma21 -- Mathematical Analysis I
(3) Fil11 -- Sining sa Pakikipagtalastasan sa Filipino I
(3) Hi16/18 -- Asian/Western History (choose 1)
(2) PE
(3) NSTP

TOTAL: 18

Summer

(3) Fil12 -- Sining sa Pakikipagtalastasan sa Filipino II
(3) SA21 -- Introduction to Sociology and Anthropology

TOTAL: 6

SOPHOMORE YEAR

First Sem

(3) Ma22 -- Mathematical Analysis II
(3) Ma124 -- Discrete Mathematics
(3) Th121 -- An Introduction to Catholic Theology
(5) Ps31 -- Analytical Physics I
(3) CS110 -- Data Structures and Algorithms
(2) PE

TOTAL: 17

Second Sem

(3) Acc20 -- Financial Accounting I
(3) Ma101 -- Mathematical Analysis III
(3) Fil14 -- Ang Panitikan ng Pilipinas
(3) Ma122 -- Linear Algebra
(5) Ps32 -- Analytical Physics II
(2) PE

TOTAL: 17

Summer

(3) Ma151 -- Elementary Probability Theory
(3) Jsp1/Chn1/Sp1/Fr1/Bh1/Ital1 -- Foreign Languages (choose one)

TOTAL: 6

JUNIOR YEAR

First Sem

(3) Ph101 -- Philosophy of the Human Person I
(3) Stat109 -- Introduction to Statistics
(3) Psy101 -- General Psychology
(3) Eco102 -- Basic Economics, Agrarian Reform, and Taxation
(3) Acc35 -- Manegerial Accounting
(3) Free Elective

TOTAL: 18

Second Sem

(3) Ph102 -- Philosophy of the Human Person II
(3) Th131 -- Marriage, Family Life, and Human Sexuality in a Catholic Perspective
(3) Ec122 -- Intermediate Macroeconomic Theory
(3) Ma161 -- Differential Equations
(3) Hi165 -- Rizal and the Emergence of the Philippine Nation
(3) Fin105 -- Financial Management

TOTAL: 18

Summer

(3) Free Elective
(3) ma195.a.15 -- Seminar in Numerical Analysis

TOTAL: 6

SENIOR YEAR

First Sem

(3) Ph103 -- Philosophy of Religion
(3) Th141 -- Theology of the Catholic Social Vision
(3) Hi166 -- Philippine History
(3) -- Ma171 -- Advanced Calculus
(3) Fin121 -- Investment Management
(3) Ec142 -- Financial Economics

TOTAL: 18

Second Sem

(3) Ph104 -- Foundations of Moral Values
(3) Th151 -- The Catholic Commitment of Today's Filipino: A Synthesis
(3) PoS100 -- Politics and Governance
(3) Ma187 -- Real Analysis
(3) AMF -- Time Series and Forecasting

TOTAL: 18

Summer

(3) AMF235 -- Advanced Statistical Methods
(3) AMF270 -- Introduction to Options

TOTAL: 6

FIFTH YEAR

Fisrt Sem

(3) AMF280 -- Advanced Probability and Martingales
(3) AMF240 -- Stochastic Calculus I
(3) AMF271 -- Financial Derivatives
(3) AMF290 -- Practicioner's Seminar
(3) Elective

TOTAL: 6

Second Sem

(3) AMF241 -- Stochastic Calculus II
(3) AMF272 -- Risk Management
(3) AMF291 -- Mathematical Finance Project
(3) Elective
(3) Elective

TOTAL: 6

[Lek-Lek]

ey there! that's a pretty interesting course! :)

a lot of weight is given on risk management/derivatives/options. although these areas dwell much on mathematics, i guess other facets such as fixed-income portfolio management (FXTNs, T-bills, T-notes, RoPs, RTBs, etc), equity investment management, asset pricing and corporate finance are pretty interesting topics and should be included in the course.

so, they'll also be taking six units of Accounting and 3 units of basic finance, huh? dr. ibarra should be the one to handle them, i bet, those classes will be a lot of fun! :) but the fact that these two accounting subjects sandwich an entire summer, that's sort of problematic for me. i'd rather take accounting in two successive semesters rather than have breaks in between them.

[tesseract]

Lek-Lek:

A problem I see in the curriculum is that it is rather, well... esoteric and limited. I honestly don't think it has the breadth that the course I'm taking up (BS ME) has. I was speaking to a friend of mine, and he had a similar opinion. He's an ME grad, by the way, and graduated from the old ME curriuclum (the one we have now is a lighter version of that), and he says that what I ought to do instead is to just overload and take up additional math subjects. And since I'm in a management-oriented course, I ought to take things related to management up instead.

[minded]

Originally posted by tesseract
A problem I see in the curriculum is that it is rather, well... esoteric and limited. I honestly don't think it has the breadth that the course I'm taking up (BS ME) has.

kaya nga sinasabi na mas maganda ang courses na inooffer ng la salle kaysa sa ateneo dahil napaka-specific ng courses nila. for example, an advertising company would get a student from la salle(assuming that that student is taking up la salle's advertising course) rather than, let's say, an Atenean taking up bs management. in other words, specialized ang courses ng la salle, hindi "general" courses like what ateneo is offering.

aminado ang ateneo dun.

tama lang ang ginawa ng ateneo

[tesseract]

Originally posted by minded


kaya nga sinasabi na mas maganda ang courses na inooffer ng la salle kaysa sa ateneo dahil napaka-specific ng courses nila. for example, an advertising company would get a student from la salle(assuming that that student is taking up la salle's advertising course) rather than, let's say, an Atenean taking up bs management. in other words, specialized ang courses ng la salle, hindi "general" courses like what ateneo is offering.

aminado ang ateneo dun.

tama lang ang ginawa ng ateneo

The business courses at the Ateneo are broad mainly because they're managerial--they're not supposed to cater just to certain fields but rather should be oriented towards a wider spectrum. Managers, and not just employees, are the intended graduates. Specialization follows when the student opts to choose a minor in a particular field (marketing, finance, etc.).

la salle has better courses? It depends who you ask. But then again, a la salle-educated tycoon acknowledged the Ateneo de Manila's school of management as the best when he donated P200M to the Ateneo.

[rabbaddal]

Judging only from the curriculum that was posted above, it appears that the program is geared towards investment finance rather than corporate finance. To put it another way, if you want to be an investment banker, private equiteer, or CFO, you don't need to go through this program. But if you want to be an equity researcher or investment manager, then this course will be directly helpful since ER and IM depend heavily on mathematical theory.

I'm not sure what victory's opinion on this program may be. But I think that the undergrad part is completely unecessary. Almost all of the top researchers and investment managers in the world did not major in finance. The notorious Jack Grubman was a math major. Citigroup's global head of research was a journalism major. Most of what needs to be known in this field has to be learned in the graduate level. Also, diversity counts a lot in finance because the end-product is not only a solution to a problem but also a business decision and it pays to have different creative insights.

Going back to tesseract's point about Ateneo's management program being broad-based, AMF is in fact being offered by the Math Dept. and not the JGSOM. So the management program still retains its generalist perspective. Also, even this new AMF course does not compromise on the core curriculum - philo, theo, and the likes.

Lek-Lek: I doubt if they will teach corp finance in AMF. The Math Dept. has to justify this as being a math course and not a management course, hence finance subjects that dwell on financial math theory. Corporate Finance as practiced in investment banking, treasury, private equity, and CFO-level has little to do with mathematical theory as it does management decision-making.

As for the MS part, I wonder why they didn't open the program to students form other programs as well, like Mgt, Eco, or ME majors who took finance for their electives and did their practicum in investment finance. It would be better to have some diversity in the program.

[dekster]

I would have to say that this is an interesting course but in accordance with what Lek-Lek and Rab have said, it would seem that one's career options after taking this degree would be limited to fields like investment management.

I still prefer the MS Financial Engineering (http://www.dlsu.edu.ph/continuing/cbe/msfe.html) curriculum offered at my school because it also focuses on corporate finance at the same time covering the topics that have already mentioned in this thread. Now that I mentioned it however, do you guys have a copy of the curriculum for the 5 year BS ME & MS FE program at Ateneo? Last I heard about it was in one of the threads here and I think the program hasn't been implemented yet.

Anyway, I'm very curious about your FE program so I do hope that someone will post it here soon.

As a side note, I would have to disagree with what tesseract has said about the breadth of our business courses at Lasalle. On the contrary, I feel that our business programs are very broad and diverse. Whatever your major (field of specialization) is be it accounting, applied econ, bmg, marketing etc... you still have to take several units of the other management fields you aren't specializing in. Keep in mind that the degrees offered by the College of Bus & Economics are Bachelor of Science in Commerce degrees (but with specializations/majors of your choice).

[tesseract]

Originally posted by dekster
I would have to say that this is an interesting course but in accordance with what Lek-Lek and Rab have said, it would seem that one's career options after taking this degree would be limited to fields like investment management.

I still prefer the MS Financial Engineering (http://www.dlsu.edu.ph/continuing/cbe/msfe.html) curriculum offered at my school because it also focuses on corporate finance at the same time covering the topics that have already mentioned in this thread. Now that I mentioned it however, do you guys have a copy of the curriculum for the 5 year BS ME & MS FE program at Ateneo? Last I heard about it was in one of the threads here and I think the program hasn't been implemented yet.

Anyway, I'm very curious about your FE program so I do hope that someone will post it here soon.

As a side note, I would have to disagree with what tesseract has said about the breadth of our business courses at Lasalle. On the contrary, I feel that our business programs are very broad and diverse. Whatever your major (field of specialization) is be it accounting, applied econ, bmg, marketing etc... you still have to take several units of the other management fields you aren't specializing in. Keep in mind that the degrees offered by the College of Bus & Economics are Bachelor of Science in Commerce degrees (but with specializations/majors of your choice).

dekster:

As a point of clarification, I did not say anything about la salle's business courses. I even said, "it depends who you ask."

Now, as for your inquiry regarding the FE course of the Ateneo, I think this will be it, unless of course the SOM cooks up an FE course. But then again, this is more of a math course than anything, methinks.

[Lek-Lek]

Originally posted by dekster
I would have to say that this is an interesting course but in accordance with what Lek-Lek and Rab have said, it would seem that one's career options after taking this degree would be limited to fields like investment management.

I still prefer the MS Financial Engineering (http://www.dlsu.edu.ph/continuing/cbe/msfe.html) curriculum offered at my school because it also focuses on corporate finance at the same time covering the topics that have already mentioned in this thread. Now that I mentioned it however, do you guys have a copy of the curriculum for the 5 year BS ME & MS FE program at Ateneo? Last I heard about it was in one of the threads here and I think the program hasn't been implemented yet.

Anyway, I'm very curious about your FE program so I do hope that someone will post it here soon.

As a side note, I would have to disagree with what tesseract has said about the breadth of our business courses at Lasalle. On the contrary, I feel that our business programs are very broad and diverse. Whatever your major (field of specialization) is be it accounting, applied econ, bmg, marketing etc... you still have to take several units of the other management fields you aren't specializing in. Keep in mind that the degrees offered by the College of Bus & Economics are Bachelor of Science in Commerce degrees (but with specializations/majors of your choice).

i think tesseract meant that Ateneo's management programs give equal weights to all the different functional areas, rather than focusing on just one. the minoring part is where specialization comes in--but that is not required of every student of the JGSOM. unlike of course at DLSU-CBE where a BS Accountancy student is expected to work in an accounting-related job, or a BSC Marketing student eventually pursuing a career in marketing, a BS Management/Management Engineering graduate of the JGSOM has a wide array of career paths to choose from. not to mention that these programs are backed up by a diverse and rigorous training in the humanities--indeed, very much needed in a corporate world shackled by all sorts of unethical and unjust practices.


i think i'll have to agree with Rab. the BS/MS AMF program is really geared towards financial research. i don't think you need to go through the program if you intend to become an investment banker or something. you really won't be needing all those mathematical courses in IB functions such as private equity placements, IPOs, underwriting, issue management, and M&As.

[rabbaddal]

Originally posted by dekster
I still prefer the MS Financial Engineering (http://www.dlsu.edu.ph/continuing/cbe/msfe.html) curriculum offered at my school because it also focuses on corporate finance at the same time covering the topics that have already mentioned in this thread. Now that I mentioned it however, do you guys have a copy of the curriculum for the 5 year BS ME & MS FE program at Ateneo? Last I heard about it was in one of the threads here and I think the program hasn't been implemented yet.

Anyway, I'm very curious about your FE program so I do hope that someone will post it here soon.



Last we heard from victory's old post, the FE program was being conceptualized up by the same Math Dept. that came up w/ the AMF program, but it looks like this is the end product. I'm not privy to why the FE program wasn't implemented this year, but reading between the lines, it looks like the initiative came entirely from the Math dept. Intuitively, if the Math dept. were to pursue a finance program on their own, then it would be difficult to justify an FE program whose curriculum might cross into the turf of the JGSOM (however, most FE programs around the world are not conducted by business schools but rather by science and engineering schools in conjunction w/ their operations research or IE programs).

Perhaps the underlying reason why the FE program couldn't be implemented sooner is due to the lack of resources in the country to implement (teach and develop) the program. Financial Engineering as taught abroad is a completely different practice from financial mathematics as taught in AMF and corporate finance as taught in MBA. FE, though still broadly defined, refers to the science of constructing and decomposing complex securities products. And if finding people to implement the program is tough, it is even tougher to find a real market demand for graduates of this kind of a program given the immaturity of our debt and equity markets. If you want to be an investment banker, treasurer, or controller, might as well go for an MBA.

Personally, I think local b-schools should focus on the basics such as developing tools (earnings quality, valuation, etc.) needed for critical judgement before venturing into FE.

[dekster]

I've been contemplating on what grad degree to take if I were to study here in the Phils again. The difficulty in taking something like the MSFE is not so much in finding qualified teachers but indeed that the demand for its graduates here will be low in the near future since we have one of the least developed financial markets in Asia.

But in the longer term... who knows right?

Here's a question for you guys... do you think it would not be a waste of time to take both an MSFE and an MBA? I think we can all agree that the two are quite different anyway. Should I push through with this plan however, I would definitely concentrate on something like marketing in my MBA.

[victory]

Originally posted by dekster
I've been contemplating on what grad degree to take if I were to study here in the Phils again.

Here's a question for you guys... do you think it would not be a waste of time to take both an MSFE and an MBA? I think we can all agree that the two are quite different anyway. Should I push through with this plan however, I would definitely concentrate on something like marketing in my MBA.

Study abroad.

[Lek-Lek]

Originally posted by victory


Study abroad.

That's one trademark advice from victory. :)

[rabbaddal]

Originally posted by dekster
I've been contemplating on what grad degree to take if I were to study here in the Phils again. The difficulty in taking something like the MSFE is not so much in finding qualified teachers but indeed that the demand for its graduates here will be low in the near future since we have one of the least developed financial markets in Asia.

But in the longer term... who knows right?

Here's a question for you guys... do you think it would not be a waste of time to take both an MSFE and an MBA? I think we can all agree that the two are quite different anyway. Should I push through with this plan however, I would definitely concentrate on something like marketing in my MBA.

Victory is right. Study abroad.

Some universities allow you to take an MSFE and MBA jointly as a dual degree so you can hit 2 birds w/ one stone. As for the MBA concentration, it will have to be a personal choice but most b-schools are really good in both finance or marketing.

[dekster]

hehe... when I no longer have financial constraints, I just might ;)

[victory]

Originally posted by dekster
hehe... when I no longer have financial constraints, I just might ;)

At the masteral level, credit markets for educational loans are much more complete and efficient in US schools. At the Ph.D. level, qualify for a program from a top-tier US university and you are usually automatically given a fellowship that will support your tuition and provide you with a generous stipend for at least four years of study.

Bottom line: Your biggest hurdle is probably the admission stage. If you get admitted, financing should not be too much of a problem at all.

[KuyaDanny]

1) Binawasan na pala ang mga English subjects? I noticed En25 (Drama) and En26 (essay) are no longer in the list.

2) Even if this is a "specialist" course offered by the Math Department, I was hoping it included a corporate strategy module, so that the practitioner truly understands finance's place in the overall scheme of things. If I were taking this course I would use up two electives for strategy-type subjects - ICA and BP (or whatever these subjects are called today).

[victory]

Originally posted by KuyaDanny
1) Binawasan na pala ang mga English subjects? I noticed En25 (Drama) and En26 (essay) are no longer in the list.

2) Even if this is a "specialist" course offered by the Math Department, I was hoping it included a corporate strategy module, so that the practitioner truly understands finance's place in the overall scheme of things. If I were taking this course I would use up two electives for strategy-type subjects - ICA and BP (or whatever these subjects are called today).

I am not quite clear either as to whether this BS/MS track aims to produce people working in industry or academics coming up with contributions to the theory of finance. Can you determine this from the quote from tesseract above?

"...During the past three decades we have witnessed the emergence of a new scientific discipline, the `theory of finance.' The theory has become increasingly mathematical to the point that problems in finance have led to a phenomenal surge in mathematical research activities in the area. Thus, there is a clear and growing demand for mathematical scientists with knowledge of financial markets..."

And the end output is...? Practitioners or academics? The danger is always being caught in between: Too few "practical" courses for actual use in industry and too few "academic" courses to really train scholars for future contributions to new knowledge. You're then open to criticism from both camps.

[prof_x]

Originally posted by tesseract
la salle has better courses? It depends who you ask. But then again, a la salle-educated tycoon acknowledged the Ateneo de Manila's school of management as the best when he donated P200M to the Ateneo. [/B]

In exchange for the Ateneo-owned lot in Manila, which is now known as Robinson's Place? ;-) j/k

[prof_x]

Originally posted by victory
At the masteral level, credit markets for educational loans are much more complete and efficient in US schools. At the Ph.D. level, qualify for a program from a top-tier US university and you are usually automatically given a fellowship that will support your tuition and provide you with a generous stipend for at least four years of study.

Bottom line: Your biggest hurdle is probably the admission stage. If you get admitted, financing should not be too much of a problem at all.

This is not entirely true for non-US residents or non-US citizens. It is DIFFICULT to get admitted if you cannot show sufficient funds. The hurdle is for you to show that you have enough money to survive for a year (it is rare to get assistantships on your first term in a US university) and when you're there, it should not be difficult to find assistantships.

[Stampede]

Originally posted by prof_x
This is not entirely true for non-US residents or non-US citizens. It is DIFFICULT to get admitted if you cannot show sufficient funds. The hurdle is for you to show that you have enough money to survive for a year (it is rare to get assistantships on your first term in a US university) and when you're there, it should not be difficult to find assistantships.

are you sure about this? that's bordering on discrimination. nowhere in the application process does it say you need to have sufficient funds. at least that's how i remember it. you might be confusing school application with the visa application. doon talaga, kailangan mong ipakita na may support ka.

[victory]

Originally posted by prof_x
This is not entirely true for non-US residents or non-US citizens. It is DIFFICULT to get admitted if you cannot show sufficient funds. The hurdle is for you to show that you have enough money to survive for a year (it is rare to get assistantships on your first term in a US university) and when you're there, it should not be difficult to find assistantships.

Good point, prof_x. I should have qualified my previous statement by saying that "this depends on which field of study you are pursuing." If it's an MBA or Ph.D. in business schools, which offer training in finance / financial engineering (thread topic), then what I've said holds true. Get into a good school and the MBA program will provide complete financing via loan programs that cover the entire cost of getting your degree, including tuition, living expenses, etc. Get into a Ph.D. program and you receive a four year fellowship that covers tuition, health insurance and provides a fairly generous stipend that will cover your living expenses.

[YFU'ER]

Originally posted by victory
Good point, prof_x. I should have qualified my previous statement by saying that "this depends on which field of study you are pursuing." If it's an MBA or Ph.D. in business schools, which offer training in finance / financial engineering (thread topic), then what I've said holds true. Get into a good school and the MBA program will provide complete financing via loan programs that cover the entire cost of getting your degree, including tuition, living expenses, etc. Get into a Ph.D. program and you receive a four year fellowship that covers tuition, health insurance and provides a fairly generous stipend that will cover your living expenses.

Victory,

Good school is a relative term. Outside of the top 10-15 business schools, I do not think you can get a loan guaranty to finance ones MBA aspiration as mentioned by you and Rabbaddal. Landing the proverbial trainning program after graduation is also difficult if one comes from a second tier B school.

I agree with you concerning the Ph.D program. It is easier to secure funding if one is seeking a doctorate rather than a masters degree provided one qualifies. There are also more schools offering fellowship. At the end of the day, those who receive a fellowship are debt free when they enter academia or the private sector.

Off Topic:

O ano, your sis in law going to blaze her own trail at Harvard or duplicate her cousins performance at Kellogg. Baka naman she likes to make it a hat trick at Wharton!

[KuyaDanny]

Originally posted by victory
I am not quite clear either as to whether this BS/MS track aims to produce people working in industry or academics coming up with contributions to the theory of finance. Can you determine this from the quote from tesseract above?


I didn't notice this post until now. Sorry.

I can't determine what the desired end product is, either. But I like to think of corporate strategy as a "liberal arts discipline for business" - beneficial both for practitioners and researchers because it assists in defining purpose.

[rabbaddal]

Originally posted by YFU'ER

Good school is a relative term. Outside of the top 10-15 business schools, I do not think you can get a loan guaranty to finance ones MBA aspiration as mentioned by you and Rabbaddal. Landing the proverbial trainning program after graduation is also difficult if one comes from a second tier B school.



Hi YFU'ER. Good financing terms are some of the strongest incentives to aim for admission in top-tier business programs, and one reason why it is very competitve to get in. Schools such as Harvard, Wharton, and Kellogg to name a few do not require admitted students to show sufficient funds. Payment is good for up to 25 years (though many MBA grads pay up after only 1 year of employment) and borrowers have a 180 day grace period, in addition to the option of paying for interest only. This is tied to career prospects after where banks are confident that graduates from these schools will be able to pay for their loans. Blue chip applicants from all over the world see it the same way, except maybe for Canadians who can get some sort of government loans regardless of school attended.

[krystle]

I am thinking of pursuing a Masters in Finance/Financial Engineering/Financial Mathematics in the States for Fall 2004. I will be graduating next year from the Ateneo with a double major in ME and Eco-H. Although I mainly plan to pursue a career either in I-Banking or Consulting, I was thinking that it would be a good idea to get a Masters in the quantitative finance field. Do you think this is a good option considering that the field is relatively new?

However, I am also planning to apply to various companies for an analyst position. I just want to have alternatives since my GPA is relatively low (3.2) considering the competitiveness of the industry.

[rabbaddal]

Originally posted by krystle
I am thinking of pursuing a Masters in Finance/Financial Engineering/Financial Mathematics in the States for Fall 2004. I will be graduating next year from the Ateneo with a double major in ME and Eco-H. Although I mainly plan to pursue a career either in I-Banking or Consulting, I was thinking that it would be a good idea to get a Masters in the quantitative finance field. Do you think this is a good option considering that the field is relatively new?

However, I am also planning to apply to various companies for an analyst position. I just want to have alternatives since my GPA is relatively low (3.2) considering the competitiveness of the industry.

Congratulations krystle! With regards to your question on whether this is a good option, it depends on what your objectives are. From your post, I take it your immediate objective is to get an analyst position in an investment bank. If you're targeting an i-bank abroad, then yes, an MS will be very helpful not only for the credits but also for you to use your school's career resources and network. If you are targeting an analyst position in a Philippine investment bank, then it may not be necessary espescially if that's your only objective. I think Lek-Lek started as an analyst in the Philippines.

[YFU'ER]

Hello Rabbaddal,

A couple of comments and questions related to the thread.

The mindset for majority of Canadians are quite different from Pinoys and Americans. Why? The reason is because all schools from grade school to college is under the control of Ottawa. All schools are public or quasi public for some elementary and high schools who are run by specific religious groups. The tuition fees are low because the funding comes from the taxpayers.

Most Canadians do not see any value in spending a minimum of 100K for an MBA when they can attend a good school in Canada for a fraction of the cost. Schools like Western Ontario, and University of Toronto do not have the cache of an Ivy but they are solid programs.

What I can not answer is if the Canadian MBA diploma will lead to a meaningful employment opportunity after graduation. There are roughly 10 big banks in Canada and all banks offer both commercial and investment banking. The Canadian financial market is also small compared to the action in NY.

Krystle should check out the thread in the Alumni section of Atenista.net concerning the experience of another ME graduate who pursued an MS. in Financial Engineering and not an MBA. The lady, Tin tin 96, was your batch mate together with Mr. and Mrs. Victory with Victory the only non ME major. I recall she took her MS in London and is working in the financial markets in London.

Off-topic:

Congrats on your graduation. Were you lucky enough to line-up something after graduation or are you going home?

[victory]

Originally posted by YFU'ER
Victory,

Good school is a relative term. Outside of the top 10-15 business schools, I do not think you can get a loan guaranty to finance ones MBA aspiration as mentioned by you and Rabbaddal. Landing the proverbial trainning program after graduation is also difficult if one comes from a second tier B school.


Yes, "good school" is indeed relative. That's why I qualified my statement by saying that loan programs that cover the entire cost of the MBA are probably only available in those schools classified as "top-tier" by various ranking agencies.


I agree with you concerning the Ph.D program. It is easier to secure funding if one is seeking a doctorate rather than a masters degree provided one qualifies. There are also more schools offering fellowship. At the end of the day, those who receive a fellowship are debt free when they enter academia or the private sector

The key assumption, as you stated, is if "one qualifies." Because the top-tier business schools all offer full fellowships they have to necessarily limit the supply of slots for applicants. These days the acceptance rate hovers around 3 to 4% in Wharton, for example.


Off Topic:

O ano, your sis in law going to blaze her own trail at Harvard or duplicate her cousins performance at Kellogg. Baka naman she likes to make it a hat trick at Wharton!

She is headed to Wharton. She did her own research, spoke to as many alumni and current students as she could, and decided that Wharton was best for her. Harvard and Kellogg would of course have been great choices as well, but she is old enough (and phenomenally smart -- like her sister! ;)) to make her own choices, given her preferences.

[victory]

Originally posted by KuyaDanny
I didn't notice this post until now. Sorry.

I can't determine what the desired end product is, either. But I like to think of corporate strategy as a "liberal arts discipline for business" - beneficial both for practitioners and researchers because it assists in defining purpose.

I agree, but I know a whole lot of academics who would rather just assume reality away even in their empirical work, rather than get into the nitty-gritty of how the world really works. ;)

[victory]

Originally posted by YFU'ER

Krystle should check out the thread in the Alumni section of Atenista.net concerning the experience of another ME graduate who pursued an MS. in Financial Engineering and not an MBA. The lady, Tin tin 96, was your batch mate together with Mr. and Mrs. Victory with Victory the only non ME major. I recall she took her MS in London and is working in the financial markets in London.

Sort of off-topic, sorry...

Good reference, YFU'ER. tintin96 was actually a blockmate of mine in Mgt-Honors during our time as AdMU college students, and remains a very good friend. We both dated M.E. majors, though! :lol:

Krystle, congrats in advance for completing M.E./Eco-H. My wife also graduated M.E./Eco-H back in 1996, and we just attended the wedding of one of her "M.E./Eco-H blockmates" (this one graduated summa) yesterday. A good bunch of people usually self-select into M.E. (I am sure rabbaddal would agree ;)), and only a select few make it through Eco-H at the same time. Not a trivial accomplishment!

[Lek-Lek]

Originally posted by krystle
I am thinking of pursuing a Masters in Finance/Financial Engineering/Financial Mathematics in the States for Fall 2004. I will be graduating next year from the Ateneo with a double major in ME and Eco-H. Although I mainly plan to pursue a career either in I-Banking or Consulting, I was thinking that it would be a good idea to get a Masters in the quantitative finance field. Do you think this is a good option considering that the field is relatively new?

However, I am also planning to apply to various companies for an analyst position. I just want to have alternatives since my GPA is relatively low (3.2) considering the competitiveness of the industry.

If you're looking at getting hired as an analyst in an i-bank here in the Philippines, I don't think you need a Masters in quantitative finance. I think the FE program is geared more towards investment research, treasury, fund management, etc.

IMHO, an aspiring i-banker should have lots of people skills and gutts--to sell all kinds of deals that get in to your hand. Of course, the quantitative aptitude must be there. Just make sure you know your basic valuation stuff, i.e. DCF, WACC, COE, Beta, capital structure, price multiples, etc. And by the way, be ready for some ***-kissing as well. :)

[Lek-Lek]

Originally posted by rabbaddal
Hi YFU'ER. Good financing terms are some of the strongest incentives to aim for admission in top-tier business programs, and one reason why it is very competitve to get in. Schools such as Harvard, Wharton, and Kellogg to name a few do not require admitted students to show sufficient funds. Payment is good for up to 25 years (though many MBA grads pay up after only 1 year of employment) and borrowers have a 180 day grace period, in addition to the option of paying for interest only. This is tied to career prospects after where banks are confident that graduates from these schools will be able to pay for their loans. Blue chip applicants from all over the world see it the same way, except maybe for Canadians who can get some sort of government loans regardless of school attended.

Off-topic: ey rab! where can i email you?

[Lek-Lek]

Originally posted by victory
Sort of off-topic, sorry...

Good reference, YFU'ER. tintin96 was actually a blockmate of mine in Mgt-Honors during our time as AdMU college students, and remains a very good friend. We both dated M.E. majors, though! :lol:

Krystle, congrats in advance for completing M.E./Eco-H. My wife also graduated M.E./Eco-H back in 1996, and we just attended the wedding of one of her "M.E./Eco-H blockmates" (this one graduated summa) yesterday. A good bunch of people usually self-select into M.E. (I am sure rabbaddal would agree ;)), and only a select few make it through Eco-H at the same time. Not a trivial accomplishment!

off-topic:

ey sir victory! how was your flight?

[mac_bolan00]

new course developments usually start at the graduate level while undergraduate programmes tend to be feinforced for greater flexibility. well, that's one model. the way i see it, this new undergraduate programme takes off from the obvious success of the earlier ME curriculum. it's easy to understand the implied modifications. one only has to look at the industries as the main source of new skills demand.

on the other hand, i know several math professors at UP who'd rather starve to death than teach higher math as a co-curriculum to business subjects.

[rabbaddal]

Originally posted by YFU'ER
Hello Rabbaddal,

Most Canadians do not see any value in spending a minimum of 100K for an MBA when they can attend a good school in Canada for a fraction of the cost. Schools like Western Ontario, and University of Toronto do not have the cache of an Ivy but they are solid programs.

What I can not answer is if the Canadian MBA diploma will lead to a meaningful employment opportunity after graduation.

YFUER, Canadians are entitled to some sort of government financing even if they enlist in top-tier MBA programs outside their country. That includes HBS and the likes. In that sense, they get the same career opportunities as HBS grads from other countries.

Originally posted by YFU'ER
There are roughly 10 big banks in Canada and all banks offer both commercial and investment banking. The Canadian financial market is also small compared to the action in NY.


Canada’s top i-banks are Toronto Dominion (TD), Canadian Imperial (CIBC), and Scotia Bank. These banks recruit primarily from global top-tier b-schools for their i-banking practices.

Originally posted by YFU'ER
The lady, Tin tin 96, was your batch mate together with Mr. and Mrs. Victory with Victory the only non ME major. I recall she took her MS in London and is working in the financial markets in London.


tintin96, BS Management Honors 1996, works for the firm UBS Warburg in London after finishing her MS Finance in the London Business School. The bank even featured her in their global recruitment brochure. Her profession – equity research – is one of the toughest jobs to be in these days of scandal and scrutiny.

Originally posted by YFU'ER
Congrats on your graduation. Were you lucky enough to line-up something after graduation or are you going home?

Will keep you updated. Had an opportunity to work as a consultant in Asia until the SARS epidemic broke out. The option is still there.

[rabbaddal]

Originally posted by Lek-Lek
Off-topic: ey rab! where can i email you?

Will PM you through Atenista.Net.

[Lek-Lek]

off-topic:

rab: you using the same nick in Atenista.net?

[krystle]

I want to start out as an analyst in a top-tier investment bank, preferably abroad. I am not quite familiar with the details with starting out as an analyst in the local branch of foreign investment banks here (ING, JP Morgan, etc.). I don't want to sound too quantitative, but is the starting pay for analysts working locally comparable to analysts starting out abroad?
I have worked at CSFB manila for my internship this summer, but they dont really hire analysts for here. Based on what I've seen though, I guess I am willing to do the long hours. I also like the perks and fast-paced lifestyle.

I've heard a lot of stories about lots of straight-A, ivy league undergrads from the U.S. not getting analyst positions at the bulge bracket firms. I guess the reason I am planning to take a masters in finmath/fin/FE is mostly to increase my chances of getting a good job. The schools I'm looking at though (chicago, columbia, stanford, nyu, princeton) seem to be very selective so I am not confident I can get in. About the program content and its applicability to my intended job, right now I'm still examining the different careers available in the finance world. I'm not yet quite sure what I want exactly (i-banking, trading, hedge funds, etc?)
I am also considering consulting but I am not quite confident I can get in Mckinsey, BCG, and the others.

Right now, I'm just trying to read as much as I can about the various fields. So far, I've read Big Deal, When Genius Failed, Monkey Business, Liar's Poker, Random Walk Down Wall Street. Any other recommended texts? =)

I am still planning to take an MBA though even if I may already get a masters in finmath/FE/fin. Maybe when I'm 28 or so.

Thanks for all your encouragement.
:)

[rabbaddal]

Originally posted by krystle
I don't want to sound too quantitative, but is the starting pay for analysts working locally comparable to analysts starting out abroad?


Analysts in the US get paid anywhere from $30,000 to $60,000 per year. Then you have to factor in the cost of living in the U.S., which is higher than in developing countries. That being said, the value of going through an analyst program is the experience you get and the credentials/reputation you establish by working in a reputable bank.

Originally posted by krystle

I've heard a lot of stories about lots of straight-A, ivy league undergrads from the U.S. not getting analyst positions at the bulge bracket firms.

I sat on an undergrad finance career panel this year and I got a chance to listen to what the i-bankers were looking for. Yes, grades matter but only because everyone else applying to them has outstanding grades AND outstanding extra-curricular accomplishments (ex. Captain of the football team, etc.) AND outstanding inter-personal skills. In short, the quality of the applicant pool is getting better and better every year. I was astounded at how competitive undergrad recruiting has become. Some applicants even call up employers and ask to be invited to company parties, others write “OA” stuff in their cover letters just to get attention. You should have an edge w/ your CSFB internship. I suggest that you keep those networks because you might be able to leverage on them in your applications abroad.

Originally posted by krystle
I guess the reason I am planning to take a masters in finmath/fin/FE is mostly to increase my chances of getting a good job.

As Lek-Lek mentioned, in terms of skills only, you need nothing more than your undergrad degree to qualify for an analyst program. You can even be a philosophy graduate and still qualify if you demonstrate the qualities the bank is looking for. I-Bank analyst programs normally include classes in accounting and corporate finance so anyone w/ any background will have sufficient training. The problem is whether or not a top Wall St. bank will take in somebody w/ only a Philippine degree in his/her pocket. Some of my MBA classmates who worked as analysts did exactly what you are thinking of right now.

Originally posted by krystle
T he schools I'm looking at though (chicago, columbia, stanford, nyu, princeton) seem to be very selective so I am not confident I can get in.
:)

If you were able to finish Ateneo's ME-EcoH double major degree and land an internship at CSFB, then you probably have the aptitude to make it to these very selective schools. Aim for high GRE scores and submit impressive applications and you should be able to land in a good graduate program. You might want to talk to victory when he visits Manila, or attend one of his presentations if ever he gives one.

Originally posted by krystle

I am also considering consulting but I am not quite confident I can get in Mckinsey, BCG, and the others.



Same as above. You probably have the aptitude to make it to these firms. What’s more is that they seem to be hiring more undergrads in the ASEAN region than the i-banks. Over in the Atenista.Net alumni forum, there are posters who are getting ready for their McKinsey case interviews. Lek-Lek might even know some classmates of his working in these firms across the region. The question is whether or not consulting as a career might appeal to you.

Best wishes to you and hope you make it.

[rabbaddal]

Originally posted by Lek-Lek
off-topic:

rab: you using the same nick in Atenista.net?

Send an e-mail to [deleted. e-mail received]. Put "Lek-Lek" on the subject line since the account usually gets a lot of spam.

[YFU'ER]

Originally posted by krystle
I am also considering consulting but I am not quite confident I can get in Mckinsey, BCG, and the others.


Thanks for all your encouragement.
:)

Krystle,

Some useful info concerning working for consulting firms rather than Ibank.

Keep your options open about working for a consulting firm because they may offer something that an Ibank can not give you. My former office mate and her husband graduated from Dartmouth. The husband was a consultant for 2-3 years based in Chicago. When the husband decided to pursue his MBA, he was accepted to Kellogg, his employers came to him with a proposal. The consulting firm would pay for all of his tuition fees if he stayed with the company after graduation. The quid pro quo was that he paid back the company by agree to stay with them for the next 5-7 years. He didn't have to interview for internship since he worked for the company during the summer and his pay was the based on the market rate. In short, he did not have to shell out a 100K for a top rate MBA, had a job lined up for the summer and after graduation, and did not loose his leverage in determining his starting salary which at that time was close to 100K a year plus bonus.

Victory may know a thing or two about this type of benifit that consulting firms offer to their valued employees. I think Mrs. Victory may have attended Wharton on a similar program.

The questions for Krystle is if she likes consulting more than Ibank as a career path.

Good luck!

[Lek-Lek]

Krystle,

If you do get hired by a multi-national i-banking firm and be assigned to some of the most exciting financial districts, then grab the opportunity! :)

But as rabbaddal has earlier pointed out, I am not quite sure whether a top-tier i-banking firm is willing to get someone with only a Philippine diploma. You might want to settle with the representative offices of these banks here in Manila. However, I would also want to point out something which could turn you off. Usually, these investment banks just assign undergrads to backroom jobs, which means that you won't get the kind of exposure you're looking for. That's exactly the reason why I declined the offer from a very prestigious European investment bank. Instead, I chose an analyst position in a local investment house, and I don't think they failed my expectations.

[pale_pilsen]

Originally posted by rabbaddal
Analysts in the US get paid anywhere from $30,000 to $60,000 per year. Then you have to factor in the cost of living in the U.S., which is higher than in developing countries.

just to add to this: factor in the no. of hours you have to pull in a week, i think you'll end up getting $10, maybe $15 tops an hour