Religion Does No Harm. Does It?

[Gilbey]

religion is a double edge knife. it may be harmful... depends on how you look at it, on your perspective...

people do or do not do things in the name of religion

[Ben_Diablo]

"Faith is powerful enough to immunize people against all appeals to pity, to forgiveness, to decent human feelings. It even immunizes them against fear, if they honestly believe that a martyr's death will send them straight to heaven. What a weapon! Religious faith deserves a chapter to itself in the annals of war technology, on an even footing with the longbow, the warhorse, the tank and the hydrogen bomb." - Richard Dawkins, 'The Blind Watchmaker', endnotes to chapter 11

"What sort of harm?"
Religion represents a huge financial and work burden on mankind. It's not just a matter of religious believers wasting their money on church buildings; think of all the time and effort spent building churches, praying, and so on. Imagine how that effort could be better spent.

Many theists believe in miracle healing. There have been plenty of instances of ill people being "healed" by a priest, ceasing to take the medicines prescribed to them by doctors, and dying as a result. Some theists have died because they have refused blood transfusions on religious grounds.

It is arguable that the Catholic Church's opposition to birth control -- and condoms in particular -- is increasing the problem of overpopulation in many third-world countries and contributing to the spread of AIDS world-wide.

Religious believers have been known to murder their children rather than allow their children to become atheists or marry someone of a different religion. Religious leaders have been known to justify murder on the grounds of blasphemy.

There have been many religious wars. Even if we accept the argument that religion was not the true cause of those wars, it was still used as an effective justification for them.

Too much Hypocrasy...

[Minus Human]

The so called "Religious" of our society have been pointed at, censured, rebuked, and accused as the unfeigned threat to humankind. But sad to say, we still persuade ourselves to become one of them. Even though we feel unapt, we still feel the compulsion to cleave ourselves to them.

The lame excuse of the superfluous line "We're only human" is not sufficing enough to a great majority. We must admit HYPOCRISY and BAD FAITH have drawn us away from The Almighty. God loaned us our lives to let us uncover the veritable reality of His Creed and truly ascertain the essence of mortality within His dominion.

No one can win these Holy Wars, for God constantly loses each time. Our FAITH should be embellished and not to be misdoubted.

Barely breathing

[Eterna]

when it leads to fanaticism it does become harmful.

[PePe_LePew]

Religion provides a certain guideline for people to act "moral". Unfortuantely that's the only good thing about religion.
On the other hand, it also contributes to social discrimination as well. Religion also causes people to go insane such as the fanatics and the fundamentalists.
Sad to say, however you weight it, it causes more harm than good.

[Glock]

When the subjects to a certain religion begins to be misinformed by their respective heads or those who misinterpret it, THAT's harmful...i.e. The guys who try to raise money on public vehicles, using the Lord's name in vain is hardly a religious practice.

[Ben_Diablo]

Religions often discourage people from thinking about certain issues, or thinking about them outside the context of that particular religion. As a freethinker, you often feel a remarkable sense of freedom when you realise that you can think about previously taboo subjects (such as abortion, assisted suicide, birth control etc.) without referring to scripture or a priest for guidance. You are free to decide for yourself. You may even reach the same conclusions, but you got there through logic and reason, not just unquestioning acceptance of whatever your church dictated.
This is called "freethought" and can lead you down avenues of thought that were previously closed to you. You do not have to follow the teachings of your church, religion or tradition - you can research the subject and decide for yourself. No more must you put up with answers like "God moves in a mysterious way", "Man was not meant to understand such things" or "Because it says so in the Bible, therefore it is true".



[This message has been edited by Ben_Diablo (edited 06-20-2000).]

[brownpau]

Please excuse the long quote, but I think this guy expresses what I think better than I could ever verbalize it...

Concerning atheist attacks on Theism

Some might think that atheists would be content with simply not believing in God and leave the theists to themselves. After all, if God doesn't exist then what's the big deal? Why not let the theists believe in God the way a child believes in the tooth fairy? To the atheist neither exists. So why bother?

Even though many atheists don't care if people believe in God or not, others feel obligated to fight what is often labeled as "oppressive religious bigotry." To this end, many of them are active in politics, social groups, the Internet, and various lawsuits with the intent of changing society to a more atheistic nature. They often consider Christians as a threat to freedom, common sense, and a good life. Consider this quote I found on an atheist web site.

"We are constantly being overrun by people trying to get their ticket to Heaven at our expense, and if we don’t stand up and be counted we will lose the very freedom we hold most dear; freedom of thought. . . "

This kind of statement is quite common in atheist circles. Many atheists I've spoken to tell me that I cannot think logically, that I am deluded, and that I believe in myths. They tell me that I am bound by foolish antiquated beliefs and need to abandon my religious bigotry and become a 'free thinker' like them.

Additionally, after reading much atheist material and debating with them over the internet, I've discovered that they often use mockery of God, religious leaders, and the Bible as weapons. This isn't the case with all atheists, as I have had very good conversations with some of them, but ridiculing attitudes are surprisingly prevalent and strong. Character assassination, half-truths, and out-of-context Bible quotes are typical tools used by many of them in attempts to make Christianity look bad.

Now, I am not trying to dismantle the atheist position with a generic character assassination. I am only making on observation. In the majority of my dealings with atheists, I have encountered great arrogance, rudeness, and condescension. Atheists have told me that religion is only a giant con-game designed to get peoples' money, that clergymen are in business for themselves, and that I was mentally ill for believing in God. Following are other comments from atheists:

"I do not want to be bound to archaic mythologies. This is the 20th century."

"Christianity is an oppressive system used to control and manipulate people."

"Logic demands that religion be proven wrong."

"Christians should all be in mental wards."

"We are free thinkers and not bound by outdated and oppressive myths."

"Christians are sycophantic sheep."

Atheists often imply that reason is best used by them and not by Christians who, many say, need psychological help for believing in God. This condescending attitude is a fountain for derogatory comments. I have been called stupid, absurd, illogical, and a slave to my religion. I get the impression from atheists that they are so convinced they have the truth that no other options are available to them and that if you don't agree with them, you're not smart. Of course, they will deny this and say I am being ridiculous, but this is what I have observed -- right or wrong.

Consider some of the terms the atheists use to describe themselves: "Free thinkers," "Free from religion," "Rational," etc. They use these self-descriptive terms in juxtaposition to statements of Christians as religious bigots, losers, and brainwashers. On a website I read,

"Critical thinking, objectivity, scientific methodology, and peer review are all hallmarks of Atheism. Submission, fear, credulity, and insupportable claims are the hallmarks of religious belief."

When I read statements like this I can't help but wonder which religion they are referring to. It can't be Christianity because the Bible teaches us to love God and love our fellow man. It teaches that the fear of the Lord is wisdom, that credulity (truthfulness) is a way of life, and that eyewitness accounts of the miraculous is one of the evidences for its validity. Of course, the atheist would argue with all of this because he must. But still, if an atheist wants to attack religion in general and Christianity specifically, it should, at least, do so objectively. But this doesn't seem to be the hallmark of the atheistic movement; at least not from what I've seen so far.

Consider the following statements from Atheists.

"Godism is consistent with crime, cruelty, envy, hatred, malice, and uncharitableness."

"As long as religious purposes are served, ethics, inquiry and reason are abandoned."

Are these the statements of tolerance, impartiality, truth, and sound judgment? Not at all. It seems to me that if the atheists were in power, that their views of religion being cruel, evil, and unreasonable would force them to either imprison the 'offenders' or legislate complete and total annihilation of all things religious. No wonder they are working against the Lord and His people.

Does atheism really teach freedom? No. It teaches bondage for its adherents and for those who disagree with it.

- Matt Slick, http://www.carm.org

[This message has been edited by brownpau (edited 06-20-2000).]

[Ben_Diablo]

nice research my friend!

[munik]

Sabi nga sa movie na Stigmata, "The kingdom of God is in you."

It is not in any religion or structure or person.

[YoBaKs]

hmmm.....

[PauTOT]

one of the problems I have with organized religion is that I feel guilty whenever I go to mass,because instead of feeling thankful to God and all that, I just feel bored. So sometimes I just don't go to mass at all. the thing is, whenever I want to feel God's presence, I don't go to church, I take a drive and go find some secluded place and just lie there underneath the stars and be alone with nature. for me, that's going to mass, being thankful for everything that God has given me, and celebrating life.

so what's wrong with that? as far as I can tell, nothing, but I'm sure those religious leaders would be on my case the second they find out that people like me are missing mass on purpose to waste time worshipping God in our own way....why is that bad? because they said so that's why....I just don't get it.....

[This message has been edited by PauTOT (edited 07-17-2000).]

[brownpau]

I heard a story about a prostitute who was at the end of her rope, addicted to drugs, reduced to selling her two-year old baby to pedophiles. When a friend advised her to go to a church for help, she said, "Church! Why would I want to go there? All they do is make me feel bad about myself!"

Now, when I look at the bible-thumping, pulpit-preaching, sometimes bigoted stereotype that many of our churches -- Catholic and Protestant -- have become, I wonder to myself, is this what Jesus would have approved of?

I don't think so. He welcomed to Himself sinners, Samaritans, prostitutes, tax collectors, lepers, and the other unwanteds cast out from a deeply religious society.

Christians are called to do the same, to help the poor, minister to the lost, heal the sick, and so on. And many have, again and again, through the ages.

It's not about following legalistic regulations and spewing empty doctrine. That's not Christianity. As Ben_Diablo's favorite word goes, that's hypocrisy -- the exact hypocrisy that Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for.

I can't speak for other religions, but I can speak for Christianity, and its essence of love: to accept Jesus' love and share that love with all. And if you see death and war and suffering being caused by the abuse of this faith, just remember that there are also believers who are praying and working to heal the wounds, patch the rifts, and spread His peace.

[This message has been edited by brownpau (edited 07-17-2000).]

[YuCkFoU]

just reviving my old threads...

[the_FLY]

it depends...its negative effects could lead people to false hopes on things...and would be lazy and become too dependent on such as if it was hocus pocus...

:evilgrin:

[SCHAUDENFRAUDE]

Generally, I have a healthy spiritual life. But something about being a Roman Catholic frustrates me:

This religion emphasizes the glory of suffering [read: poverty, obedience] that it greatly affects our work ethic and may have affected our history and present-day "submission" to the powers that be.

Stuff like "It's easier for a camel to enter an eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" and the Franciscan motto [excuse me, please if you subscribe to this] of "poverty, chastity, and obedience" lead one to think that it's okay to be poor, those who suffer will receive rewards in heaven, suffering is exalted in the eyes of the Lord, etc. Even our forefathers were so frightened they'd get excommunicated if they didn't bow down to the prayles. Today, we think [or at least I think we do] that sure, we're poor/sad/suffering now, the "less religious" countries/people may have their way, but there's a promise of a better life up there. I'm afraid it carries on to the way we work, earn a living, make a life. Satisfying the corporal desires is frowned upon. The meek shall inherit the earth. Come on?!

[MEM]

False Religions (James1:26) do harm.

But True and Undefiled Religion of God (James1:27) does NOT harm.

[ahmed]

Originally posted by MEM
False Religions (James1:26) do harm.

But True and Undefiled Religion of God (James1:27) does NOT harm.

I agree 100%*okay*

[Purplerose]

Personally, I don't think that true religions can harm. I believe, even with different
teachings, all religions are aimed at making a better person out of someone and,
eventually, a better world.
It is the people or the members with astrayed interpretations of their religions
that are harmful. :rolleyes:

[micketymoc]

Now there's the rub. Of course, only the true religion doesn't do harm. Now, can you create a definition of "true" religion" that can somehow include other religions apart from yours?

Here's an interesting article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4257777,00.html)written sa kainitan ng 9/11. The proposition being: how do you convince otherwise sane people to kill themselves - and others along with them? Simple - convince them that there's a paradisiacal afterlife waiting for them after they exit.

"Our leaders have described the recent atrocity with the customary cliche: mindless cowardice," says the author. "[The hijackers] were not mindless and they were certainly not cowards. On the contrary, they had sufficiently effective minds braced with an insane courage, and it would pay us mightily to understand where that courage came from.

"It came from religion. To fill a world with religion, or religions of the Abrahamic kind, is like littering the streets with loaded guns. Do not be surprised if they are used."

[micketymoc]

Now there's the rub. Of course, only the true religion doesn't do harm. Now, can you create a definition of "true" religion" that can somehow include other religions apart from yours?

Here's an interesting article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4257777,00.html)written sa kainitan ng 9/11. The proposition being: how do you convince otherwise sane people to kill themselves - and others along with them? Simple - convince them that there's a paradisiacal afterlife waiting for them after they exit.

"Our leaders have described the recent atrocity with the customary cliche: mindless cowardice," says the author. "[The hijackers] were not mindless and they were certainly not cowards. On the contrary, they had sufficiently effective minds braced with an insane courage, and it would pay us mightily to understand where that courage came from.

"It came from religion. To fill a world with religion, or religions of the Abrahamic kind, is like littering the streets with loaded guns. Do not be surprised if they are used."

Personally, I don't think that true religions can harm. I believe, even with different teachings, all religions are aimed at making a better person out of someone and, eventually, a better world. It is the people or the members with astrayed interpretations of their religions that are harmful.
There was a time when religion did rule the world, holding sway over kings and common people alike. Isn't it funny that they called it the Dark Ages?

Where religion gains institutional power - be it Catholic (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/kyle_gerkin/objections_sustained/obj7.shtml), Protestant (http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/ashes.htm), or Moslem (http://www.saudiarabiahumanrights.org/qhumanr.htm)- atrocities are bound to occur. To say that only "false" religions do harm belies the fact that EVERY enculturated religion of any stripe actually starts doing damage.

[Holy_Atheist]

Answer: Of course it does!
You want a second opinion? Ok. Religion IS harmful! There.

Here's why:
Religion puts man on a slippery slope towards fundamentalist fanaticism. I kid you not. And sometimes I think the only thing that prevents most theists from sliding down that path is a lack of moral and intellectual integrity, the inability to commit themselves 100% to the tenets of their faith. How ironic.

Nice article by Dawkins. Medyo shallow nga lang, but I guess it was written in outrage. Thanks micketymoc and I hope you keep up the fight.

BTW, Realm of Thought is moderated by brownpau, whose religious view seems apparent. I wonder if his belief somehow affects the way he handles the job. Without a doubt, it affects a lot of his decisions in life.

[Azrael77]

Originally posted by MEM
False Religions (James1:26) do harm.

But True and Undefiled Religion of God (James1:27) does NOT harm.


Of course the catch here is what is the true religion? If one religion is true then all the other religions in the world are wrong.
Must be why there's a lot of wrong that goes on around the world always. :idea:

[MEM]

Originally posted by Azrael77



Of course the catch here is what is the true religion? If one religion is true then all the other religions in the world are wrong.
Must be why there's a lot of wrong that goes on around the world always. :idea:

The true religion of God is written in James 1:27:

"Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble (CHARITY), and to keep oneself unspotted from the world (HOLINESS)."

Unfortunately, HOLINESS and CHARITY is not being practiced by most religious people in the world. Because there are more people who starves to death!

[ahmed]

If people insist on worshipping other gods beside the ONE TRUE CREATOR, then, religion is the most harmful thing you can ever imagine!:flame:

[mac_bolan00]

i'm basically communist and i think there's nothing religion can give to a person that a good government cannot.

[micketymoc]

Originally posted by MEM
The true religion of God is written in James 1:27:

"Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble (CHARITY), and to keep oneself unspotted from the world (HOLINESS)."

So judging from this standard, would you say that Islam was one of the true religions? I mean, even charity to the poor is one of the five pillars of the Moslem faith (http://islamicity.com/mosque/pillars.shtml#POI3). And going to a madrassa is one heck of a way to keep oneself "unspotted".

Using your own standards above, would you then acknowledge Islam as a "true religion"?

[ozmen]

aaaauuuuggghhh!!! religion messed me up! *huff* *puff* okay, that may be an exagerration. but i have a lot of hangups to this date, which stem primarily from my religious upbringing.

oh well. i'm not bitter anymore. i forgive and all that. but i still don't go for religion.

in case you're wondering, i'm a christian now. devoutly un-religious.

[nymia]

Ever heard of the popular phrase used during the 3rd century AD.

"Christians to the lions!!!"

Christians were considered the lowest class in society. An equivalent of those christians back then would be the poor and uneducated people living in the slums. Smokey Mountain is probably where you would find christians if it was the time of Roman empire though. Christians were the geeks and the untouchables of society. They were in fact, slaves and objects of violence.

Nowadays, christians are different for they are no longer persecuted. Though I'm not sure if christians are now the ones who are, you know.

I'm deeply christian in faith and values though. But historical facts like the ones I wrote above keep me sane and civil.

[nymia]

I think the violence in religion can be traced back to the literary judeo-hellenistic influence.

Remember Baal, that god was considered a terrible god. Killed a lot of newborns and raped virgins inside the temple.

[gearhead]

as in any case, too much of something is bad.

[DoctorNO]

Originally posted by MEM
False Religions (James1:26) do harm.

But True and Undefiled Religion of God (James1:27) does NOT harm.
Hey even a 95% true religion should be quite harmless dont you think?

[DoctorNO]

Originally posted by micketymoc
"It came from religion. To fill a world with religion, or religions of the Abrahamic kind, is like littering the streets with loaded guns. Do not be surprised if they are used."

There was a time when religion did rule the world, holding sway over kings and common people alike. Isn't it funny that they called it the Dark Ages?
Do you actually believe the statement you quoted? Gee it seems like youre pretty quick in blaming religion for most of the hurts and downfalls the world has suffered. Pray tell me, was the evil greater than the good that came from religion? How sooner would have mankind reached this age of enlightenment we enjoy without the aid of religion? :cool:

[MEM]

Originally posted by micketymoc


So judging from this standard, would you say that Islam was one of the true religions? I mean, even charity to the poor is one of the five pillars of the Moslem faith (http://islamicity.com/mosque/pillars.shtml#POI3). And going to a madrassa is one heck of a way to keep oneself "unspotted".

Using your own standards above, would you then acknowledge Islam as a "true religion"?

No. Because even if their doctrine says that charity to the poor is one of the five pillars of the Muslim faith, if they don't put it into practice, IT'S USELESS.

Muslim doctrine use "jihad" to kill people. Is that HOLINESS???

[raggster]

God loves, man kills.

i don't think religion is to blame for any of the atrocities usually attached to them. (except maybe for the ones that explicitly call upon people to kill, but anyway...) most religions teach morality and ethics, but not to the point of impracticality. the birth control issue, for example, is always taken against the RCC, but no one ever bothers to remember that the RCC is only against artificial birth control, and not birth control per se.

the danger is when human emotion gets in the way of religious truth and twists it to become useful to human ends. this danger, however, is not exclusive to religion alone; science and philosophy are also exposed to such dangers, as is also physical tools.

in and by themselves, religions cannot harm, much less kill.

but people can.

[mac_bolan00]

Originally posted by raggster
God loves, man kills.

i don't think religion is to blame for any of the atrocities usually attached to them. (except maybe for the ones that explicitly call upon people to kill, but anyway...) most religions teach morality and ethics, but not to the point of impracticality. the birth control issue, for example, is always taken against the RCC, but no one ever bothers to remember that the RCC is only against artificial birth control, and not birth control per se.

the danger is when human emotion gets in the way of religious truth and twists it to become useful to human ends. this danger, however, is not exclusive to religion alone; science and philosophy are also exposed to such dangers, as is also physical tools.

in and by themselves, religions cannot harm, much less kill.

but people can.
lol! the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument.

to that i say, "God and religion don't die, people do."

[liberty]

religious belief is a coping mechanism..

could be good, could be bad, intrinsically and extrinsically.

[Eugene Hikaru]

No offense to all religions, but I think religion only made believing in God more complicated to the point that you are confused on what thing to believe....hence the religious misunderstandings.

Why the heck do we have several religions believing in different things, right?

[bengaboyz]

Religion creates divisions or boundaries among humans. It's inevitable that clashes between and among these varied faiths and beliefs will and continue to shape our lives.
:smokewink:

[Sacrosanct]

Originally posted by bengaboyz
Religion creates divisions or boundaries among humans.

i agree with this. religion just places a label on people, though it unites those of different races it also segregates them from people of other religions. i know of numerous people who frown on those who aren't of the same religion as them (some are catholics, some are muslims)...

religion should be taken as a guideline for moral beliefs, a guideline and nothing more. the way some people treat religion is they act as though everything the church (or whatever religious authority holds over the belief) says is right... they treat the church's teachings as the absolute dogma in which they have to abide by. something i read in zimdude's house: "the reason the teacher teaches the student is so the student can live without the teacher" (or something like that, i forgot).

true conduct should transcend all boundaries, especially that of religion.

[Eugene Hikaru]

Originally posted by Sacrosanct


i agree with this. religion just places a label on people, though it unites those of different races it also segregates them from people of other religions. i know of numerous people who frown on those who aren't of the same religion as them (some are catholics, some are muslims)...

religion should be taken as a guideline for moral beliefs, a guideline and nothing more. the way some people treat religion is they act as though everything the church (or whatever religious authority holds over the belief) says is right... they treat the church's teachings as the absolute dogma in which they have to abide by. something i read in zimdude's house: "the reason the teacher teaches the student is so the student can live without the teacher" (or something like that, i forgot).

true conduct should transcend all boundaries, especially that of religion.

True. It's just that some religion's guidelines/beliefs really contradicts others straight out and it also subconciously makes some of its followers fanatics...

[raggster]

Originally posted by mac_bolan00

lol! the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument.

to that i say, "God and religion don't die, people do."

pffft.

more rhetoric, mac?

that hardly says anything about God or religion.

~~~

funny, though. for a person who claims to be of "scientific mind," mac_bolan00 believes in something, namely communism, that has been phenomenologically and historically proven to be ineffective and unrealistic. go figure.

~~~

Religion creates divisions or boundaries among humans. It's inevitable that clashes between and among these varied faiths and beliefs will and continue to shape our lives.


but doesn't this hold true for almost any social system? poverty creates boundaries. race creates boundaries. age, intellect, nationality, heck, even eye color has been used to build walls between people. why pin it down on just religion?

but i agree with Sacrosanct. people should understand religion as a moral guide, not some elitist brand. the problem being more people do the latter than the former.

[raggster]

double post

[bengaboyz]

Originally posted by raggster
quote:
Religion creates divisions or boundaries among humans. It's inevitable that clashes between and among these varied faiths and beliefs will and continue to shape our lives.


~~~


but doesn't this hold true for almost any social system? poverty creates boundaries. race creates boundaries. age, intellect, nationality, heck, even eye color has been used to build walls between people. why pin it down on just religion?

Where in my quote did you see the words "just Religion"? :|